jimmckinnon Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 <p><strong>Mark Harrington - </strong>Thank you for a very well-thought-out addition to this thread which was well worth the read! </p> <p>As <strong>Serge </strong>has intimated, there seems to be an assumption that Kel's work is quite valuable. It may very well be, but it would be nice to see some work to back this up. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_clark___minnetonka_mi Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>The photography industry has changed and will continue to do so. Some have driven that change, others follow and many get left behind. I remember taking a class with Eddie Tapp in 2005 when he said, manufacturers of both hardware & software products are working on making it easier & easier to use so as they can attract large numbers of people who will buy their products.</p> <p>I can give you several examples but here is a recent one I received in an email yesterday, reminding me the possibilities I can achieve with my computer:<br /> http://www.apple.com/ilife/iphoto/print-products.html?cid=CDM-US-DM-P0008834-155847&Email_PageName=P0008834-155847&Email_OID=3ed3ff1444e04faf515b5a7109fa0774&cp=em-P0008834-155847&sr=em<br /> I'm going to assume this email was sent to a lot of people who use Apple computers. Now things like albums, cards, calendars, reprints (notice the pricing) are four examples to show off your photos.<br /> At any rate, the business is changing. Other industries have gone through tremendous change. It is still happening with photography.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_smith266 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>In my area, some of these Craigs list low low priced photographers offer 2 shooters, unlimited coverage, album, enlargements, and CD. Really makes me wonder if they are paying taxes or just doing this on the side.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnathan1 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>I also have a low price that covers my basic time for the wedding and auto everything in PS. It basically gives them a CD. With the cost of printing anymore it is just to easy for the B&G to go to walmart offering extras, like photo books, cards and things of that calibre usually help to increase the money they are willing to shell out.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p><em>"WELL, according to the article, if you give a random guest a point and shoot they will produce the same level of work of someone like Neil Ambrose?" LS</em><br> <em></em><br> No, it doesn't say that. Basically it makes the point that if a random guests takes 100 shots, then he or she is likely to get 5-10 images that family and friends will "ooh & ahh" over. Invariably, someone will make the comment that they "look professional". Frequently, their next step is to conclude that professional photography is pretty easy, especially with their "eye" and "natural talent"..........Bada boom, bada bing, and up goes a snappy website proclaiming their new business with affordable prices and their passion for photography. No professional training, no internship, and no studio.........let's just meet at the local coffee shop or book store. They conclude that short lighting is what happens when you squat to take a photo with your pop-up flash or that broad lighting is the flash that you use when taking photos of older gals......They'll proclaim that flash produces too harsh a light and just isn't their "style"... Next they discover an internet forum and posts some images with blown-out high lites, poor exposures, wide-open apertures (because they've been reading some of the forum posts) and a lack of fill light......and proclaim that is their "style". They cover a wedding with over 1000 shots and then deliver 200-250 of their best images....and proclaim that is due to only wanting to deliver the highest quality images........professional integrity, you know.</p> <p>The $5000 shooters will complain about the $2000 shooters, the $1000 churn & burn shooters will complain about the $500 shooters and that's just the way it is. Nobody's crying.......just commenting on what is. <br> <em><br /></em></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_clark___minnetonka_mi Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>Where I see a demand for 2 & 3 hour gigs are with folks getting married the next time around. Many times the group photos are of the blended family. Older clients, feet usually on the ground, less of a Cinderella story or Daddy showing off how successful he is/was. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>Seems to be a bit of sour grapes here from some. If a client books a photographer based on their portfolio, be it a $200 or a $10000 deal and the photographer in question delivers images consistent with this portfolio then nobody at all has the right to complain or say anything negative. Start worrying about what you can do to improve your situation, not complaining about photographers more competitive than you are.</p> <p>And also don't assume that all cheap photographers are garbage. I am sure there are some pretty good one's out there who put those charging more to shame, but of course the number of clowns in the bottom price range will be fairly high and it is up to the client to avoid these people - all based on a through portfolio examination.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aopstudio Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>I can't help but make a couple of points here although I like to stay out of these things. First good photography is entirely in the eye of the beholder. If someone does a wedding or portraits and the clients think he or she did a great job that is all that matters. You may look at blown out highlights, poor posing, ond on and on but who cares what you or I think? We didn't hire them and we didn't pay them. I have looked at photos from established and respected photographers that I thought were garbage but the clients were extremely happy so I repeat what does it matter what I think either about the quality or how much they paid.<br> Now all that being said I do get irritated with the uneven playing field. I do this full time for a living. I have a full set of insurances, collect and pay sales tax, and file income tax. So along with trying to create photographs that sell, I have to run the business and keep an iron clad set of books. Therefore after paying income tax along with both halfs of social security tax i.e. self employment tax I believe those of us doing this legitimately are only able to use about 50 cents of every dollar of profit we make to pay the bills. Meanwhile those doing it "on the side" keep every dollar and do not worry with sales tax or paper work. This does indeed make it unfair to the professional. I believe clients need to realize this is one reason there is such a vast difference in pricing from a professional. If everybody were made to keep records and pay taxes I believe most of the competition would be long gone! </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham_morris Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>These threads amuse me somewhat. If you're in photography solely as an artistic pursuit then kudos to you, you can complain about the quality of photography and it's demise through photojournalism, new technologies etc. etc.</p> <p>However, if you're in the business of photography and you're complaining about the above then I would suggest you should save your breath and consider taking a course in business. Businesses fail when they do not adapt to changing market conditions, complain about it all you like but the market doesn't change because of your musings. I'd especially include the author of the linked article in this bracket. He can surely list all of the great photographers however he fails to note that photography was merely a scientific spectacle until the advent of the first Kodak consumer camera.</p> <p>Photography is invariably linked to the consumers experience of it, they are either happy with point and shoot shots or it enables them to appreciate real quality photography, pick the market you want to operate in and charge accordingly. If you're charging a higher price than competitors then make sure you market on it, why are you charging more? One big differentiator, apart from photo quality, might be insurance, I can guarantee that a £/$500 shooter won't have insurance and all the protection that comes with it. I wouldn't try and straddle two markets, you'll be frustrated financially and artistically on the lower paid jobs and struggle to capture high paid jobs because you're producing low quality pictures on lower paid jobs.</p> <p>Finally, judging other photographers based on their studio or lack of, equipment and my current pet peeve supply of digital photo's rather than prints. I'm willing to stick my neck out and suggest that if you're solely producing prints and not willing to release digital copies you're going to start losing more and more work. Technology is allowing non-professionals to do more and more with their media and they're expecting their media to be able to be used accordingly. To not allow clients to put photo's on Facebook etc. is a winding road to nowhere IMHO.</p> <p>To the OP, know your market, price and advertise accordingly, trust that the quality of your work is worth what you're asking for. If you can't afford to charge $500 then no-one else can either, they're cutting corners, sell on that. Adapt, adapt, adapt. Be good at service not just photography, weddings are emotional, get it right and you'll get referrals.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxdonny Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>IMO, it all comes down to a simple economic rule demand and supply. Pricing is very subjective and can varies due to so many reasons. However, the bottom line is, if we charge $2000 or $5000 but have no client, and if ourlives depend on the business, we might have to re-visit our pricing structure in order to survive. On the other hand, if we charge $500 and receive more clients than we can handle, we will most likely increase our prices to weed some out. If we charge $3000 and we have enough clients, then what's the complaint? All in all, photography,especially wedding photography, has become so competitive since the arrival of digital cameras. There is almost no entry barrier to wedding photography. Who wins? Of course customers, since they now have so many to choose from.. whether it's bad or good. Expensive does NOT guarantee good results, and cheap, does NOT guarantee bad results.. and let's not forget, photography is art, and art, IMO, is very subjective.. A technically good photo may not necessarily be an artistically good photo, and vice versa.<br> Another example is restaurant. Expensive does not guarantee good food, and cheap does not guarantee bad food.. In the end, like any other business, everybody try to compete, some win, some lose.. Having been in the business for so long does not guarantee survival of the future.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 <p>I tend to agree with a lot of what's been posted here...</p> <p>However - one fact has been omitted - The Economy is still in the tank...with no sign of recovery or jobs for 10% give or take of the population. Brides are just like everyone else - they are looking for a good deal.</p> <p>The average CL photographer in MN charges between 500 and 1000 for a day of shooting, CD of images and rights to reproduce. Brides looking here on CL tend to want Free - Student or someone looking to build a portfolio or less than $500.00. There was a bride on CL a few months ago - I actually got a call from her... She had a wedding in a city about 2 hours from my home - and she asked what my rate was... I told her - and she said that she was hoping for something in the $100-200 range - total - not the $1200 I was quoting her.</p> <p>I went on to explain - that I have multiple everything - have never "lost" an image - and provided a real nice dvd of her special day. She said - "Yes- I understand that - I used to work with photographers at the paper, but I've been un-employed for 10 months and I just can't afford you." She wanted the quality but just didn't have the money to pay. She indicated that she had 4 others that she had spoken with - 1 of whom was going to do it for free - drive the 2 hours - one way, shoot for 6 hours, drive back home, (10 hours total) for $0.00 and give her a CD. I wished her luck - haven't heard from her - but I assume that things worked out.</p> <p>There's no way I can compete with that - nor do I intend to. Brides that sit down and look at my work know I deliver good quality photos at a competitive price. I'm not at the top end - but I'm not at the bottom either.</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonja_greene Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>Low price customers are going to pay just that! They usually understand that the photographer they hire will only give them so much for that price. So it doesn't do any good for a higher priced photographer to speak to them about a $1500.00 wedding package or even get upset about it if they get low balled. The customer who is <strong>able</strong> to and <strong>want</strong> to pay for a $1500.00 wedding package will hire the appropriate photographer. I've been turned down before which was discouraging, but I know I have more to learn always. I have about five weddings under my belt and have never been paid more than $500.00. That being said, my pricing includes taking the photos, minor adjustments, and putting them on cd. I only do Jpgs anyways. The quality of my work is not sacrificed, just limited. I have the ability to do more, but the customer only wanted so much and nothing more. This, however did not cheat a higher priced photographer out of a gig because my customer would not have seen them anyways. My point is, the customer will gravitate where they need to be. They are not all dumb and I've seen some of the toughest scrutiny out there when it comes to that. I mostly do events but weddings are going to be my focus this coming year which will include higher pricing and full packages.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscape_shooter Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>David, I know what you are saying. Best wishes to everyone here.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonja_greene Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>Photo journalistic style can be just as much as an art as classic weddings or can be mixed...times have changed and as another poster has already mentioned, businesses fail because they don't learn to adapt...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>I would rather be a second shooter > these days. That's about the price range that seems to be surfacing in our market.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>This debate is curiously similar to the open source (Linux) vs commercial development (Microsoft, Apple) discussions that are frequent in technology communities and forums :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>Sonja -</p> <p>I agree - customers will go where their budget takes them. Just as a bride who wants a $5,000 a day photographer and has the budget to pay for it won't talk to me, the bride who has a $100.00 budget won't talk to the $5,000 a day photographer.</p> <p>It's all about finding your market and selling to it. If you can't make it on $500 weddings - then don't try to market to them.</p> <p>In the article - the author points to people using Coffee Shops as a meeting place for clients. Interesting enough - the last time I met a client it was in a coffee shop - why? Because it was convienent for both of us, it was closer to her home, and it worked. I could have insisted that she drive to my home studio, at a time that wasn't as good for her and not provided her with refreshment... Would that have gotten me the job? I don't think so...</p> <p>Also interesting to me at least... There were 3 other photographers in the shop doing the same thing I was at the same time. I almost stood up when finished and said "Next! or Rotate!" - hmmm... Speed photographer hunting...</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonja_greene Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>Lol, Dave. Lately, the market seems to be not just saturated, but super saturated by new digital photographers. At least it is in my town.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p><em>"In the article - the author points to people using Coffee Shops as a meeting place for clients. Interesting enough - the last time I met a client it was in a coffee shop - why? Because it was convenient for both of us, it was closer to her home, and it worked. I could have insisted that she drive to my home studio, at a time that wasn't as good for her and not provided her with refreshment... Would that have gotten me the job? I don't think so...Also interesting to me at least... There were 3 other photographers in the shop doing the same thing I was at the same time....." DH</em><br> <em></em><br> Really the issue isn't about meeting clients in a coffee shop. A brick & mortar studio owner could also elect to leave the studio and meet the client at a coffee shop or even in the client's home. A home studio could actually be a real home studio with space dedicated to showroom, office, and shooting area or it could refer to a kitchen table/breakfast nook in family living space or perhaps a coffee table in a studio basement apartment. Four photographers in the same coffee shop all meeting clients.........geeeeesh. Yes, times have changed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix_mizioznikov Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 <p>I'm new at shooting weddings and have only done a hand full. I'm offering reasonable rates and am retaining rights releases from bride and groom so I can sell the images commercially via stock websites and maybe a gallery or two. If I do a good job and come up with some creative wedding photos they can sell hundreds of times over for the rest of my life equalling to hundreds or even thousands of dollars. if people start negotiating over services, you could negotiate over commercial and print rights. <br> I also do not understand about the free shooters or shooting a whole day for $100. I'm guessing they are new and testing skills or equipment. Living in miami there are always people working weddings for cheap or free so I usually start by asking what' s the budget before shooting out a price to get a silent tone on the phone. Having prices set on your site seems limiting in perspective. it's like driving a sports car. You wont post on your window your horsepower and 0-60 times. the slower cars will love to race you but will waste your time, and the faster cars will only drive by and not even look your way. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 <p>I offer 90% of the images top quality ~ at my higher priced package and 30% on the cheaper inquiring s.. <br /> Manual everything :: VS :: Program (hope for the best & no post) hand them a card -- Whatever fits their budget ..have to stay flexible > in this market. <em> "businesses fail because they don't learn to adapt...</em> " "<br> ~~~~ especially after 30 years<em> <br /> </em></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c._f. Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 <blockquote> <p>Here in the DC area looking at craigslist i see some photogs charging $500 below for an entire wedding package offering prints and everything with unlimited time</p> </blockquote> <p>Here in NY, we got the same issue. Newbees get high end gear, photoshop the hell out of their product, print it at winkflash for 4cents/ 4x6 and call them selves pros.<br> It is unfortunate reality of digital photography. This mess didn't exist during film.</p> <p>Adam</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonja_greene Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 <p>C.F... I hear ya, I'm out shooting with my D50 and using my 10 years film/digital experience making good pictures the first time and I see some people with big bank accounts buy some professional gear and ask me how to use it and ask for advise????? What's up with that?????</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 <p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5583543"></a> <em>" What's up with that????? " </em> I sometimes frighten people : walking up to their faces with a hand meter -----<strong>or worse</strong> they think it is a small digital camera ,,,, and they think I am finished with the shot ~ after I click the meter ...and walk away :-(</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_mongrel_cat Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 <p>as someone who is just starting out, i can't compete with thousand pound (£) + weddings. i don't have the experience or portfolio to do that. i have to come in cheap in order to pay my dues. i'd rather work cheaper than not work. <br> having said that, i understand that many high charging photographers bemoan the fact that there are people out there doing this. i fully intend to up my price as soon as is appropriate. but i'm having to compete with cheap-as-chips photographers too, and i don't have the portfolio or referral body that an established photographer will have.<br> at the end of the day, i'm basing my own work on quality service and quality results and hoping desperately that my growing sense of business nous will start to see me through.<br> it's simple darwinian theory - 'it's not the strongest of the species that survive, but the one most responsive to change.'</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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