second shooter agreement

[sandy_w1]

<p>Hi everyone, do you have a written contract/agreement that you could share with me? </p>

[john_h.1]

<p>What kind?</p>

[sandy_w1]

<p>wedding</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>I realize this is for weddings. What kind of terms?</p>

[sandy_w1]

<p>hi john, terms like a waiting period before they can post their shots online. they can't contact directly or indirectly with the b&g. anything happened to their equipment is solely their responsibilities etc.</p>

 

[sandy_w1]

<p>bump. could someone please help me?</p>

[sandy_w1]

<p>no one??!??</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Having seen the contract "samples" out there that seem correct to the average reader but are woefully inadaquate or even dangerous, you would be well served to have one drafted or screened by an actual expert. An attorney. The fact that you just asked for some random sample that could do anything adds more to this concern. You wouldn't seek medical treatment and other such expertly services from photographers. Likewise you shouldn't get legal documents from them either. If you obtain a sample, be sure to get it screened professionally.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I also think that a free copy of a contract will not be worth much, or so chopped up and pasted together that it would not be 'worth it'. I'd recommend doing your own research with books on IC contracts, hire a lawyer, or maybe buy a specific photographers' contract, such as the one in the link below.</p>

<p><a href="http://photographerstoolkit.com/associate-photographer-contract">http://photographerstoolkit.com/associate-photographer-contract</a></p>

[William Michael]

<p >Another point I think you need to consider seriously, if you do go the route of procuring "samples" is: <strong ><em >where you work – “Would these sample be applicable to my situation / location?”</em></strong>. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I could give you a copy of the agreement I have for a Contract Assistant Photographer, which is very robust, legally: but, it is very likely JH could shoot holes through it with a pea gun if it were executed in the USA - as I work in Australia. That is just as one example. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >As another example, if I employ a second Photographer (i.e. pay a wage or salary) then I need to do little apropos a contract as such, because my entitlements, rights and responsibilities (and the employee's too), are pretty much sewn up in our Employment Legislation: so issues of, if or how the <strong ><em >employee</em></strong> might use <strong ><em >my</em></strong> images, or how they look after <strong ><em >their tools of trade</em></strong> or how they cannot <strong ><em >poach</em></strong> existing customers or <strong ><em >steal</em></strong> my contact lists etc . . . are pretty much covered. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Other countries have different Employment Legislation.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW </p>

 

[john_h.1]

<p>I suspect William's Australian "robust" contract is so good it would it work better in the U.S. than many of these U.S. oriented samples that are going around.</p>

<p>peaking of the U.S. Sandy, what state are you in?</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Well . . . being experienced (AKA "old"); having attention to detail (AKA nit-picking); asking multiple right questions and listening to answers (AKA "a pedantic pain the butt") . . . has its uses, I guess. :) <br>

Thank you for the complement, John, it is appreciated. <br /><br />***<br /><br />Yes - on the matter of “What State?” - the are a few nuances of the Employment Codes which are different between the States here, too – but not as much as I glean there are in the USA – this is an area which intrigues me – some of Canada’s Rules for Photography are even more fun – but I know that from having worked there once. <br /><br />It is very dangerous to assume that “one template fits all” when it comes to: agreements; contracts or even local working rules and regulations. <br /><br />Hopefully this message has been conveyed and received: and will be acted upon accordingly. <br /><br />WW</p>

<p> </p>

[sandy_w1]

<p>Really, I just want to see a sample. It is not a paid contract. It's for someone who wants to build a portfolio and wants to tag along with me. In exchange, I get another perspective and some assistance during. It would be really helkpful to see what one looks like and what typical terms are included. Please share??</p>

[William Michael]

<p>My sincere apologies, but I will not supply. <br /><br />There is a limit to what “Business in Confidence” material one will share in public and or give at no cost. This is one case where that limit is reached.<br /><br />However, for the specific scenario you now outline - I mention the following as key areas I would address:<br /><br />1. My total liability insurance coverage pursuant to all the Assistant's actions, including their travel from home and then to and from the Event.<br />2. The ownership / transfer of copyright of any images taken by the Assistant – I would want that: but it might be tricky if there is no consideration (i.e. payment in some form) – I don’t know your laws.<br />3. The ability to control the display of images under the Assistant’s own name – I require “Joe Bloggs working for ACME Photography” or similar.<br />4. The control of any solicitation, advertising or marketing to parties present at the Wedding, during the Wedding or overt contact for those purposes, afterwards. <br /><br />IMO point 1 is the most important. <br /><br />All the rest is just tidying up and preventing naughty business habits from a person who would not, (or should not), be not too much of a business threat anyway.<br /><br />My point 1 (Liability) might be without (outside) the bounds of any contract between you and the Assistant and might be better addressed within your Public Liability policy and your local laws – but I don’t know for sure. <br /><br />What I do know is, it would be my priority to nail first – without that first point nailed I have never taken on any “Work Experience” person - which is what basically this scenario really is . . .</p>

<p>I trust that helps your cause.<br /><br />Also I add, politely and in your interest: knowing the reason for requests better avails one of being able to give a more precise and hopefully useful answer - if you need to converse with your insurance broker or lawyer I suggest clarity of your questions and statements is very important - as they usually charge by the minute.<br /><br />WW <br />

 

</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>The fact that this situation "is not a paid contract" makes no difference. Indeed, the fact that you feel it does suggests a even greater need for more learned guidance than any samples will provide or as a saviour from such samples. I found a few of the samples you are anxious to just "see" using Google. My view of what will be helpful, I believe, is different from yours so I will suggest using that search tool and you will be able to find the samples you desire.</p>

<p>If you are willing to say, I am still interested to know what state you are located in case I know of sme resource that may be helpful to you.</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>this is an area which intrigues me</em></p>

<p>A bit too off topic to get into great detail but it is an interesting topic. I'll offer a bit of indulgence.</p>

<p>Its called the United States for a reason. A bunch of sovereign states within a larger state can be somewhat confusing to those not accustomed to that level of federalism. I recall a conversation in a pub in London, England and the astonishment over there being different minimum drinking ages in different areas of the U.S. Over time the power of the federal national government has grown especially in the area of commerce between these states. As to drinking alcohol, the federal government later decided to withhold money it gives to a state if the state does not have a minimum age of 21. Now all the sates have that as a minumum age as a result.</p>

<p>Still these states have their own set of laws which creates confusion (including in the area of professional photograhy) here when trying to understand how things work. What is run by the central goverment? Is the law the same in one states as in others? What state's law applies if part of a tranasaction is conducted in one and another elsewhere? A lot of what is said on photo.net is an aggragate sample (if I can use that word safely in this thread) or a commonly followed rule. I imagine looking at this from the outside makes some wonder.</p>

<p>Does all this make much difference in second shooter contracts? Potentially to some degree on one or more aspects. More concerning to many of these wedding contract issues, in my view, is that some of these samples turn out to be so poor that they are not really useful ANYWHERE.</p>

[sandy_w1]

<p>Hi John, could you provide the links where you found via Google? I tried the search engine but perhaps I used the wrong words or something but it didn't yield anything that was pertinent in my quest.<br>

Thanks</p>

 

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>“the links where you found”</em></strong></p>

<p>Only for amusement, I searched a few days ago, when I first read this thread.</p>

<p>I seemed to get a truckload of “samples” with “<em>Second + Shooter + Contract</em>” some were attachments in links and others were imbedded in forum boards, I had to join one to read it - but it didn’t take much work to sift through it all.</p>

<p>I hope that helps.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p><strong><em>“I'll offer a bit of indulgence.”</em></strong></p>

<p>My indulgence if I might:</p>

<p>Well we only have six States; three Territories (they are NOT States - but have Governments) and also we have an handful of Dependant Islands . . . One territory doesn't figure that much day to day, but the remaining Six States and Two Territories cause enough havoc and confusion IMO - none can agree what age kids can leave school . . . but drinking alcohol is fairly uniform – 18years – unless Indigenous and living on prescribed areas of land in which case alcohol might be banned - and it is illegal in one State for a shopkeeper to supply a plastic bag for your groceries . . .</p>

<p>So I do get some feel for your condition.</p>

<p>Specific to Photography - there are Local Municipal Councils and Shire Councils - our Third Tier of Government. Lately there have been some of these instrumentalities who have taken it upon themselves to "decide" laws (as council by-laws), apropos Photography.</p>

<p>The most hilarious case, which I know about, happened about four years ago when a Municipal Council decided that, in the interest of Minors, NO PHOTOGRAPHY would be allowed at a School Swimming Carnivals in their Municipality - except by the ONE designated teacher, from the School.</p>

<p>Unfortunately (for the Council) although most Parents complied, there was a group of four Gents who took their cameras into the pool and began photographing their children competing. The Council employed Security Guard was a little out of his depth (pun intended) and made the next mistake of taking the cameras, forcibly and then removing the four gents, forcibly - - - arriving outside there just happened to be not one but TWO news Uplink Vans and the whole soap opera drama was screened on two network Newscasts, that evening . . . and a week of Trial by Media ensued.</p>

<p>By a very curious coincidence, all the four gents were Lawyers and two happened to be QC’s (Queen's Council) - a Barrister of high standing and experience at the Bar. . . the by-law was thrown out at an extraordinary meeting of the council that night, but the details of the actions for pain and suffering caused by several folk not having pickies of their kids winning ribbons have not yet surfaced (another pun intended).</p>

<p>My circumlocutionous point, is one would not even want to take the local Council “laws” <strong><em>as law</em></strong> or even a <strong><em>“sample”</em></strong> of it.</p>

<p>(I don’t think “circumlocutionous” is an adjective – or even a word – but then again I was speaking legalese – or at least my lay version of it.)</p>

<p>WW</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Very interesting William. I've never heard the word circumlocutionous before either.</p>

<p>Sandy, I am just philospically opposed to providing samples of things that I personally believe is not worthy as serving as samples. If you have questions about something you have, however, I will see if I can find something you should seek further help with as long as I'm not held responsible for anything. Deal? </p>

 

[john_h.1]

<p>...or No Deal.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>:)</p>