dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Hi all!<br /> <br /> This is my first time posting to this community - due to some recent issues I began looking up fellow photographers that have had a similar encounter to mine! This will be slightly long... I do apologize in advance!<br /> <br /> I am a female, and have been doing wedding photography on and off since I was 15 (now 28). 8 years seriously. I used to do weddings in conjunction with my father as he is a Minister so it was an obvious tag team. I have lived in the UK for several years now, married, settled and after the loss of a dear friend decided it was time to make a move and branch out here with my photography. I know it's no easy task to please a bride, but I've never had any complaints before and I am extremely keen on good customer service, so we begin and all is fine, until.<br /> <br /> <br /> I did a wedding about 3 months ago. I was signed up for the entire day, from prep to first dance. I took on the clients a few weeks before their wedding as they had been let down. I did my usual preparation of consulting over the phone at first to help the speed of the situation. I did attempt to email shoot lists of formals but to no avail as no one filled them out. It also instructs that where possible it is best to have your best man or someone of the same role announce the pictures and the names of those next for photos as it speeds the process and is more warm coming from someone that knows the family already.<br /> <br /> I arrived at their home and they proceeded to tell me they wanted a totally natural style. I said that was fine, but that they would obviously want some traditional formal pictures. When I attempted to procure my OWN shoot list, on a notepad, they said basically, themselves and the wedding party but specifically her brother and their son and a bridesmaid in the again "natural" style. They even suggested I try to capture moments to cut out a specific bridesmaid as she hadn't been as helpful as they would have liked... they then said how a lot of people will want to take pictures of them on the day, but to ignore those and not to take pictures of them. Just whom they had told me. They sign the contract and everything is fine. I didn't get to do my normal inspection of the venue, but they did explain it to me and I said the set up I could achieve and they seemed fine with this.<br /> <br /> <br /> On the day I arrive for prep at the agreed time. No Bride in sight for this, as she is still getting her hair done. Oh well, I take pictures of her son and the others at her home rushing about to finish things. Pictures of dresses, shoes, flowers, etc. An hour later she arrives, and proceeds with her makeup. This is fine - pictures are elegant and classy. Quite pleased. We arrive at the venue. It's a boat, which I knew - but this is the nightmare of nightmares, it's a boat with huge glass windows, and it's sunny and no curtains, no lighting directed from the venue onto the couple - and the "no movement, no flash" as per the usual UK ceremonies... RIGHT, adjust camera... so, I do my best with the worst possible intense backlighting ever. I do adjust some photos to a decent standard - you can see everyone and the couple, it's not as nice as I would have liked but you have to work with everything you're given.<br /> <br /> Proceed to formals. I give them the 5 minutes to greet their guests, let the queue die down, then proceed up. They are already taking pictures, not mingling - and there are (and I swear this is no exaggeration) 30+ people crowded in like the Pap taking photos... My contract, and I did tell them, says - that I allow photography by others at the wedding, but that formals are exclusively mine and if they allow people to take those pictures, if they are in the way, are not looking at me - or are generally less than could be due to it - it is their responsibility not mine. I attempted to get to them, grab their attention - they were ignoring me and pulling other people, telling them to get in the photo, this way and that. I am meant to organize the formal shots and they knew this so I assumed these were the "many photos" they were speaking of for the benefit of their family that they didn't want. I took some candid moments, and did attempt to get central shots although saying Excused me, and "I'm the photographer today" to their guests was obviously a foreign language. I have never ever been treated more rudely in all my days.<br /> <br /> 20 minutes later the venue owner comes up and tells all the guests to go down. I spoke with the couple, even showed them some raw OOC shots and they were thrilled. The venue owner tells them they must come down for food, so I say "Right guys, we have got to get your single shots and formals later, after you've eaten and everything has died down, ok?" Yep yep they are happy with that. I go down, freshen up, grab an ice water, take some snap shots of others walking around, them being served their meal - the cake, etc. 45 minutes went by whilst they eat, I keep an eye out for the moment they go to get up, etc. I went around the corner to change my memory card, and someone approaches me saying the Bride is looking for me to take pictures of her getting ready the second time....The Bride had an outfit change planned for the speeches and first dance section, which I knew of. But at this point I can't take the formals!! They both knew they had NO couple shots, and NO proper formal shots - had said yes to me, but then proceeded to change outfits for the rest of the night. It was a full outfit change, makeup - the lot - groom as well. At this point, I myself was upset with the situation but you approach it politely and with a smile. I go do her changing photos... lovely, as per usual... she even asked me to take a photo of her as there were no mirrors. I did so and her reaction "Wow... is that me?!" And then her bridesmaid said it's a magic camera... lol. She is about to dash out and I insist on getting a shot of her and her groom before they go out. They collect him, and holding hands they ALMOST run out the door until I got quite aggressive and said "GUYS! A picture together!" They seem annoyed, but so what at this point. They pose for a milisecond, and run out... frustrated I take pictures of the speeches and what not. I really started to get the hint that they meant utterly natural. She would even look away from me on purpose when I was the only one taking a photo! Even when I'd say "Eyes here guys."<br /> <br /> The cake cutting - was announced by a family member who told EVERYONE TO GET UP AND TAKE A PHOTO...... 300 guests.... *sigh* I ran to the front. But unable to move with 200 people crammed behind me like the front of a Metallica concert I couldn't really get ANY OTHER angles....<br /> <br /> <br /> The first dance... the venue had horrid lighting, the windows obviously were pitch black - but I planted my tripod there, used my remote, and got some fantastic dance shots...I left feeling angry and frustrated but feeling I had done my absolute best and only someone with aggression of a WWF Wrestler would have done any better. I come home, see the shots - the weak areas were what I expected. Ceremony & Formals which are key but again - I would like to see someone do something different. Shouting out, waving, excuse me, and even speaking directly did not work. I pick 10 or so out, edit (mildly), and send them to the Bride. I relay to her the weaknesses, and say (as they hadn't paid me yet at this point) I wanted to show her the shots to make sure she is 100% happy before they sent me a pence.<br /> <br /> I even phoned and she seemed totally happy, really loved some - etc etc. I said ok then, great. She pays me... late... a month and a half late. When I finally do get paid, I send her some unedited, and edited (305 final edits, but that's because I had to stop or I would have had 1000 edits, and still not be asleep now working on all the potentials)I took 2500 pictures in total - I work on the "it's better to have too many, than not enough" theory and it works for me... we arrange to meet up to sort the selections and any additional she wants edited. A month after she has received her disc, I have to cancel the meet up due another last minute booking. I ask them if possible if they could sit down, and select the ones for editing, prints, etc - and it would help us progress a bit faster.<br /> <br /> <br /> A few weeks pass, and suddenly the day after this announcement on TV about this wedding photographer being successfully sued airs - I get an email saying they are devastated with the images, that I should have been forceful and MADE them take pictures, and that if the lighting was wrong I should have TOLD the venue owner to change it even though they had selected it and I had NO IDEA who he was until 1 minute before the wedding!! I have promptly offered to refund them in full, to complete and pay for their album out of pocket, and their prints, AND to help edit any family pictures due to NEVER having a complaint before. I would rather that than have any bad marks even though I feel it is thoroughly not my fault in this situation. They have still not sorted receiving any refund, have not responded to the offer, and have phoned me recently saying they didn't give me "permission" to use their photos on my site. I proceeded to say it was in the contract, I have every legal right to use the works for my portfolio and website (this shows how good the shots were! it made me business!!) but that if it bothers you I will take them down, and so I did. I have a strong feeling it is a couple that saw ££ when they heard of this lawsuit and just want to get something for free or more money out of it. Which my contract also states if for any reason you are unhappy with your images you are entitled to a full refund of monies paid and that I am not responsible for any damages, emotional or otherwise! So they won't get anywhere with it but.............<br /> <br /> <br /> Does anyone have horror stories like these to share???? LOL<br> I would put some photos here for evaluation for honest opinions if these are truly hideous?? If anyone would like to see?<br> Cheers, thanks guys!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilambrose Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>I'd like to see your photos, if you're able to show them. I think without them it will be very difficult to make useful comments.</p> <p>Many of the things you describe are fairly normal. A deluge of guests with cameras during the cake cutting - yes, that happens almost every time. Difficult lighting is also pretty much normal, at least every venue where I've shot. The UK is famous for it :-)</p> <p>Any pictures you can show will go a long way to explaining the problem and your approach to it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Ok I've thrown a flickr album together, only a few photos, there are another 250 I can add but currently editing another wedding lol, but just to get an idea of quality etc. I tried to post as many unedited as possible I could find (even WB or lighting issues) except some selective color editing from previously so you could get an idea of OOC. Very tiny images too - oh and before you ask yes they asked to have the ring images specifically on their hands and not faces. I don't tend to like cutting their heads off if I can help it :P</p> <p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Howard Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Why is it that we see on this site so often people offering things to whiners? You have a contract, let the contract guide your actions. Offering people refunds and free stuff at first squeal guarantees bad times ahead. When unreasonable people complain and threaten, maintain your cool, follow the rules. Make them explain to you precisely what it is they don't like, don't accept vague statements like "devastated". </p> <p>Having said that, do you feel like you tried to take control, or were you weak about it? Be honest with yourself. This will help to guide you through the rest of the process.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Hi Michael,</p> <p>I suppose I did take your stance on it - until I got my first real complaint! I think I just broke down about it because I'd never received such a reaction. It is whining, but word of mouth is powerful and though I am certain now that it was probably too weak to give in so quickly to appease them, I was still at the time trying to maintain "the customers is always right" mentality.<br> I do have my own definitive style & look for taking my photos, and perhaps it didn't mesh well to them on their big day, but that was what my portfolio was for! <br /> <br /> I was as strong and forceful as I have ever been, and it was never a problem before. I would actually rather not have to ever be as forceful as that day would have required. It has changed my attitude to pre-wedding consultations. I have made sure very thoroughly that if crowds gather, I am not raising my voice or acting like a military personnel to get your guests to behave. I ask like an adult, and if they don't respond - it's your issue. It has worked thus far, not like it ever really didn't work before but I make my point very clear whereas before it was never a problem as polite guests move out of my way when asked.<br> <br /> I agree with what you said though Michael, in essence, so thanks for the advice. :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Howard Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p><em>I have made sure very thoroughly that if crowds gather, I am not raising my voice or acting like a military personnel to get your guests to behave. I ask like an adult, and if they don't respond - it's your issue.</em></p> <p>That sounds to me well handled. I hope you know I not trying to pick on you, it just seems there is a rash lately of people making unreasonable demands of vendors, and vendors acting like jellyfish. It's bad for any business to allow yourself to be treated like that. It also gives the spoiled brats ammunition. I saw that court decision highly publicized, and thought to myself "this is only the beginning". I believe there is a real danger of the wedding photo industry getting mauled by the dreaded worldwide Bridezilla. This should be a REAL lesson to those working without a reviewed, detailed, iron-clad contract.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec_myers Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Oh my good lord - you are kidding, right? Those photos are <strong>really excellent</strong> - I have no idea what this bride is complaining about. And you've offered them a full refund? How about actually paying them some extra money too while you're at it? And buying them car? No, scratch that, better make it a yacht. Or both. And pay for the honeymoon while you're about it.</p> <p>Repeat after me, 100 times, or at least as long as it takes to sink in "I must not allow myself to be treated like a doormat!"</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec_myers Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <blockquote> <p>Which my contract also states if for any reason you are unhappy with your images you are entitled to a full refund of monies paid and that I am not responsible for any damages, emotional or otherwise! So they won't get anywhere with it but.............</p> </blockquote> <p>Incidentally, this may not actually hold any water. In English law, the validity of disclaimers is very heavily limited by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. You can actually <em>weaken </em>your position by saying "I am not responsible for..." - it's one place where it really is worth checking with a solicitor.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilambrose Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>I appreciate the shots you posted are only a small sample, but based on the ones you've shown, I can think of no reason why anyone should be 'devasted' with the results. They are in my opinion well composed and well lit, and none of them demonstrates any obvious technical flaw.</p> <p>Shooting contre-jour in the boat has worked fine - the contrast is a little low, perhaps, but that's typical of shooting into strong light. Faces are well-exposed and well framed. Your b+w treatment is not to my taste, but that's a personal aesthetic. There's nothing very wrong with the images themselves.</p> <p>It sounds like your biggest mistake was in client management. You didn't set expectations that they understood, and you didn't adhere to the contract you wrote. When you were challenged, despite feeling that there was no basis for dispute, you didn't gather any material facts to support their claim, and in short order you conceded to demands that you felt were without merit and returned the funds you were paid.</p> <p>That's not a very successful strategy, as I'm sure you're now aware.</p> <p>Not really sure what prompted you to do that, but I'm also sure you won't do it again. The recent court case on the news is a red-herring, absolutely immaterial to your work for these or any other clients. Any legal action depends on merit - and unless you believe there is something seriously wrong with your images, there is no basis for believing you'd be in litigation, let alone that you'd lose. A client can't sue because they're 'devastated'. They can only sue for negligence.</p> <p>I'm also a bit unclear what you were protecting. You say 'word of mouth', and 'the customer is always right'. Hmm. What value is 'word of mouth' from unhappy clients, or clients who you do not trust, or who don't trust you? And clearly the customer isn't always right, and certainly not in a context like this.</p> <p>A tough lesson all round, I think.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Well, possibly but it's not really unfair is it to say I will refund you what you paid? In reality my contract is very tiny - 1 page and nothing is small print, it's all 10pt or above and different categories are even in bold. Not some 15 page monster! But it covers the basics, and was also based off of another well established photographers (read : richer than I! lol) contract of which a template was provided here in the UK. I will consult a solicitor though, just to make sure it is sound.<br> However, the couple that sued... they paid £1500 and only got £1200 or so back from it inclusive to damages from what I read? I got paid £650. So the effort of sueing would almost be null I'd imagine. I don't know, I would expect a lawyer or judge would see my photos and wouldn't agree anyway - but I did want other photographers opinions and horror stories lol. :)<br> And thanks for your comments - they made me laugh. And it's nice to know it's not just me that considers some of them very good. We always want to improve obviously but I was happy with quite a few and they were trying to insinuate that their guests took better photos, quite rudely actually! So thanks again. :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilambrose Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I got paid £650...</p> </blockquote> <p>Double (or triple) your prices immediately. You'll get a very different type of client.</p> <p>BTW - did you let them keep the images? I hope not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Thank you Neil, I saw your photos and they are superb so I am very happy that you don't see anything wrong in mine. I am a professional but I always seem to find myself looking up to others that capture images in ways I wish to myself, while maintaining my own style. I tend to feel they are quite good, but I am biased! I don't like the B&W treatment either but that was what the Bride asked as she felt her makeup was too strong in her guests pictures before she had seen mine (it didn't look so in my pictures as the lighting was nice, I thought the color photos were much nicer), and as I am pressed for time the effort to unzip, reload, and resize the color versions was too daunting lol.<br> <br /> I think I reacted so strongly because of the recent issues on TV, everyone making a mention of it when you go down to the pub, to give you a poke or joke because they know you are a photographer. I always strive for excellence, and it just shocked me to have such a strong dislike of what I had done, when I saw no merit in it. I did attempt to back my own corner, with pointing out the issues I had made clear on the day, and before payment - and that just made the bride more unruly. I did offer half back as a compromise and she said she felt that didn't "compensate" for me defending my work, and my comments.... it was just getting out of hand. They haven't actually accepted the full refund as of yet so I haven't given them anything back at all to date.<br> <br /> <br /> I agree that I probably should have stood stronger than I have done, and yes - it is not a mistake that will ever ever happen again! I know they can't sue for being disappointed, but it's nice to hear some other professional opinions to make sure that I really didn't supply horrid pictures - the way they behaved it had me doubting myself! So thanks, once again.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>I sent them small, almost tiny flickr sized edited images, low resolution (but nice enough you can see them like those) on the disc, and a few more unedited to choose from, on the disc - after payment. But I knew they couldn't print from them, just see what they liked to choose from. Unfortunately this client is quite far away and I don't head to their area very often, as I am willing to travel for my clients and they weren't keen to meet here with me due to the travel.<br> <br /> So, yes and no, in a way. lol. But I had offered to finish their album and prints anyway... yes I am regretting this whole thing in a huge way... *sigh*</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec_myers Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <blockquote> <p>Well, possibly but it's not really unfair is it to say I will refund you what you paid?</p> </blockquote> <p>It's not unfair, no. But it's very generous (at the least!) to say that you'll refund the money <em>entirely </em>at their discretion. </p> <blockquote> <p>In reality my contract is very tiny - 1 page and nothing is small print, it's all 10pt or above and different categories are even in bold. Not some 15 page monster! But it covers the basics, and was also based off of another well established photographers (read : richer than I! lol) contract of which a template was provided here in the UK. I will consult a solicitor though, just to make sure it is sound.</p> </blockquote> <p>Small understandable contracts are good, I think. It's just that disclaimers of responsibility are tricky territory. The template that you cribbed off might not have it right, either!</p> <p>Neil's quite right. Your photos are at entirely the other end of the spectrum from "being sued" territory. Have confidence in yourself.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theresa_skutt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>I wouldn't accept "devastated" if I had been told they were happy with them previously.<br> Stand your ground nicely. You worked hard, and deserve some gratitude!!!!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theresa_skutt Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Please keep us posted as to what happens..</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I have promptly offered to refund them in full, to complete and pay for their album out of pocket, and their prints, AND to help edit any family pictures due to NEVER having a complaint before.</p> <p>They... ...phoned me recently saying they didn't give me "permission" to use their photos on my site. I proceeded to say it was in the contract, I have every legal right to use the works for my portfolio and website (this shows how good the shots were! it made me business!!) but that if it bothers you I will take them down, and so I did.</p> <p>my contract also states if for any reason you are unhappy with your images you are entitled to a full refund</p> </blockquote> <p>This is what you need to do for the future. Take out the part of the contract above that essentially tells the client they can, at will, have a free wedding shoot and let someone else handle the business part of your business.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_livacich Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>That guy who got sued recently and lost, did terrible work, and deserved to get sued and lose.</p> <p>You have some great shots there. Your clients received quality work and have no right to complain that you didn't treat them like children in order to compel their cooperation.<br /> I think you should look upon this as a valuable learning experience. By examining what went wrong here, you're going to become more savvy and seasoned. I'm sure any longtime wedding pro has stories of Bridezillas, drunken unruly guests, in-laws from hell, extortive refund demands from "unhappy" clients, etc. If possible, find an old-timer in your area who is willing to impart some hard-earned wisdom to a sharp and talented up-and-comer.<br /> This experience could end up saving you more than the money you lost. Bad as this group was, it could have been worse. As you've already offered the refund, I would follow through and, as they say, "chalk it up to experience".</p> <p>One specific suggestion is to try to recruit one or more "enforcers". That is, a relative or friend who can get people to pay attention when you're talking, and help you get your work done. <br /> At a close relative's wedding some years back, the pro did just that. He recruited the bride's older sister to shepherd her at the hotel for the "getting ready" shots. As it turns out, she was assisted in that by their 12 year old niece, who really cracked the whip. That kid really knew how to use the word "NOW!" effectively.<br /> <br /> I volunteered to look out for him for the formals, before and after the ceremony, and at the reception. I explained to the guests what was needed, asking them to give him room and heed his requests. I had to get up on a chair once to get the group of grownups acting like a classroom of 3rd graders at recess to stand down long enough for him to get the formals. He thanked me afterwards, and I told him I was more than happy to be his "assistant". I think a lot of people would rather have something to do than just mill about in confusion wondering what's going on. I suspect a lot of fathers would like the chance to "be the father".</p> <p>I have never been a wedding photographer and always regarded it as one tough job. After attending a few weddings I really came to appreciate the professionalism, especially people-handling skills, it takes to do it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katrin_d. Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>There is nothing wrong with your photos. And yes, your prices are too low.<br> But you wanted to hear horror stories so here it goes. One of my first weddings this season. The father of the bride told his daughter that he woudn't walk her down the aisle, as a matter of fact, he was mad at her for something and decided to not show up to his only daughter's wedding which pretty much set the tone for the day. The church light was neon light, right at the back of the aisle was a window with a DJ both which made for some lovely shots of the bridal party walking down the aisle (the window was roughly 4 ft high and 3 ft wide), above the window was the brightly light exit sign. The mother of the bride was on her cell phone during the ceremony. The bridesmaid had a look of jealousy on her face that I hadn't seen since high school. The videographer tried to push me to the side right as the couple was about to kiss and made the minister trip over her mess of cables.<br> Formals: 15 minutes after a Formula-1 speed chase to the designated spot. The river background was nice, the barb wire fence separating the 3 ft wide strip of grass from the water not so much. Neither was the parking lot right behind me - this was a wedding in another state so I hadn't seen the site before.<br> Rushing to the reception. At tiny room, roughly 200 square feet for ca. 50 people. Tables so tight one couldn't move. Horrible wallpaper (top half), the rest brown wood paneling. Shelves with antique cups/teapots in every corner. A chocolate fountain right next to the door to the bathroom. DJ booth with video projector projecting pictures of the couple across the room. Generally a nice idea but the slideshow went on the entire night, cutting straight across the dance floor which made for some interesting lighting. The photos came out ok and the couple loved them, I felt that it was the best I could have done considering the circumstances but still mediocre work at best in the grand scheme of things and my husband had to pick up what was left of me for about a week after.<br> Not that this helps you by any means but know at least that once in a great while, we end up with things way beyond our control and just try to make the best of it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
april_hollingsworth Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>First off, the pictures you posted are great. Secondly, don't show the client a raw or unedited photos. Edit the ones you are going to show them. There is no need to show them 1,000 photos!! Increase your prices. The brides that are on a budget are the hardest ones to please. STick to your guns.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
april_hollingsworth Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>BTW: Here in the USA, we are taking most of the photos before the wedding. If the couple doesn't want to see each other beforehand, I tell them that they will be tired, hungry and wanting to visit with guests and they won't feel like having pictures made together. If they will have pictures made beforehand, there won't be as many guests hanging around and they will also enjoy the reception. I know it's tradition and it's "bad luck" but I don't believe in bad luck (I am a Christian who believes in God's sovereingty. A marriage survives on the two people being committed to each other).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Dawn, very nice portfolio, they got fine stuff. What more can be said except that they appear to be upset over something and trying to take advantage. Don't be too mushy, stand your ground and resolve they're specific problem the best you can. Good luck and keep shooting, you have a nice style to your workl.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn_tyler Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Alec & John - I think it is quite right that I adjust this contract, and run it by a solicitor to ensure it's sound, and without such huge flaws as it obviously has!! I am a huge softy, so perhaps I might hand the business side of the business to my tougher edged hubby who is kind, but not a softy like me. Thank you for the constructive criticism. :)</p> <p>Jeff - Thank you for the kind comments, and in my formal shoot list (that is meant to be read and filled out) at the top - I ask as well for someone from the family to be the "role call" in essence to round up the family. This was also presented to them, but to no avail as I found out on the day! But it is a great idea, and when it works well it makes the formals SO MUCH EASIER, as presented in my latest two weddings - easy breezy!</p> <p>Theresa & Dave - Thank you very much! It seems daft to let one client ruin the other client's impact, but negativity always does this. I kept reviewing my images thinking were they really so terrible as to make a Bride burst into tears everytime they see them?? (As was claimed!!) My friends and family assured me that they were beautiful, but I wanted some unbiased and honest opinions so I felt uneasy until I came here. So the honest opinion is well received. I will let you know how I get on with this problem!</p> <p>Neil, Katrin & April - Wow, increasing the prices was not even a thought to my post, but you are probably right. Those unwilling to pay much in the first place are quite possibly the ones who want to drain every bit of "value" out of their low price wedding, and expect some unrealistic ideals for their money! It irks me, because when I showed the Groom the picture of his Bride looking at me, straight from the camera (on the Wed Set, her back reflection in a mirror) he actually said "Wow, you make my apartment look good! Is that my house??" And now all of this! So, yes. Hm, indeed. Higher prices we go I suppose! I would LOVE to start shooting pre-wedding and in a possibly location style setting (akin to say Jasmin Star? Adore her style, not to copy but to move in a direction client-wise that are happy with doing that for great photos would be fantastic) It's just hard to break the traditions over here, and most Brides get ready in a seperate location and are so rushed on the day they just want to get where they are going... but I might just start suggesting it. I know a client for next year who would probably love the idea, and once you get superb examples of the effort people are more willing to try a radical idea! Katrin - your story made me laugh so hard! I have been having sleepless nights for a week over this, so upset inside because I felt either I was never that good, or maybe I should give up if I do this to a couple. It's so nice to hear other stories and to know my work is good! April - I will be adopting the no raw images mantra, I do already now due to this!</p> <p>Thanks everyone, for helping me see the light at the end of the tunnel over this! I didn't know what to expect, and I thought even under the best circumstances there might be one or two people that would say one or two images were rubbish as everyone has different taste, so this has been eye opening and lovely!</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arttek Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 <p>Dawn,<br> My beret is off to you. A. For keeping your cool. B. For continuing to work.<br> I viewed your shots and you should be compensated. You did your job well. Nice work.<br> I will no longer shoot weddings as it is not in my temperment, or I am getting older and crankier.<br> I had a similar experience when my production company provided lights, sound, ent, video & photos. We thought it was a big deal because of the money that was being thrown around, and went to great lengths in all the various paraphrenalia. Because of the prestigious venue and budget, we brought the best of everything we had. Needless to say, just because a client has money does not mean they have any class. We worked our collective butts off for these slobs and I even had some of my staff helping out in areas which was not our responsibility. We had received a hefty deposit, and we treated them like royalty. But that can only go so far.<br> The church shoot went without a hitch, we had preset tripods in the balconies and we were as fluid as an NFL TV crew. The church had an enormous entrance with lots of stairs, morning sun BEHIND the church.. PERFECTO!! (This was back in the film days, so get it right first time) Stop action on the rice as they headed for the Limos. We were breezing...load the vans and head to the reception.<br> Then the booze started flowing. We were supposed to be set up and ready at 5:00 sharp.<br> We rolled in at 2:00 set up, did lights/sound checks/ backlined both bands, left for 45 minutes returned at 4:15 and got quite a shock. The place was full of people and the family "friends" had been fiddling with everything! They had rolled a video dolly to the front entrance, tried to get the PA working, and unplugged a bunch of cables in the process! There were strange instruments on the stage as the groom and his buddies were going to "jam". The Father of the bride already pickled in single malt bellowed "don't worry I'm paying for all this" I tried explaining the situation, the schedules, the production, etc........ Frazzled, we tried putting everything back together and be ready to shoot stills and video on time. Absof*****glutely NO cooperation. We assembled 40% of the group, and while rounding the rest up the original group hit the bar. We announced over the PA about the group pictures (which we had hauled in lights to wash on a huge waterfall fountain) Still no cooperation. pleaded with the Brides mother. Reply: we'll get them later. We had three teams shooting everything they could, just grabbing groups here and there. If you were in a tux you got herded into a shoot. We had no choice. Anyways, the bands finally started and drowned out the cackling that was becoming so hideous, I felt like I was in a Vincent Price movie.<br> The crowning moment occured about an hour later between band sets. We had a microphone feed to the main table for toasts and the usual platitude exchange. Some drunk SOB grabbed the mic and howled at the top of his lungs pegging the meters and searing everyones ears . I rushed over to grab the mic, and while trying to get it, he pushed me away sending my Nikon flying and me crashing into the Brides table. Several people ran over and grabbed him and by now one of the crew cut the PA. Needless to say Chaos ensued. I was assesing the damage to my equipment and watching these animals devolve before my very eyes. The Bride was crying, the Grooms family were arguing with the Brides family, there was a schoolyard aura around the throng of people that now crowded the dance floor. It was total cacauphony. I cornered the Grooms father, the only reasonable person I had encountered that evening and said if this continued I was pulling the plug, even though I felt like doing it right then. He agreed and we gave him a mic and the stage to try to calm things down. It worked. For about 15 minutes.<br> Then a brawl started in the back somewhere and all hell broke loose. I gave the order to tear down and we scrambled to get our gear out. I told the bands they were on their own (which they were). When the trucks were loaded and we were all safely out I handed the Brides father our invoice. He said we would have to have a discussion about that. I held the tapes and prints hostage for nearly a month. I did send contact sheets. I sent still frames from one of the video cams of the ***** pushing me to their attorney, along with a repair bill for my Nikon. (along with a veiled inference of a countersuit, which I should have done anyway) A check arrived shortly thereafter.<br> So, even though I was successful in getting paid for this fiasco, I will not do wedding work anymore. I helped out on one about a year after this event, but left early. I guess the artist in me doesn't like the unpredictability. I chase muses now instead of the Capulets and the Montagues.<br> Best of luck,</p> <p>David</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_asprey2 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 <p>Another one! I feel sorry for you, but you must get a good contract that's cut and dried, plus get 50% when you take the booking and the other 50% 14 days before. I have a copy of a good one if you need it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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