EOS 7D Hockey shots

[philip_wilson]

<p>I just shot the kids Hockey practice using the EOS 7D for the first time. I have not yet figured out how to get the best from the AF as all three approaches I tried worked well. all shots were AI Servo and I tried fully automatic (all AF points), center zone and center AF point plus expansion. With experimentation I will learn this new AF system. The arena they were in was very dark (7 EV) so I was pushing the ISO. I usually shoot a 5DII in this arena. With the 5DII I get about 90% in focus shots with the systems set to centerpoint + invisible AF points and AI Servo. With the 7D I have not yet seen an OOF shot although I have only looked at about 40% of what I shot. I shot in RAW at 8fps and never had any issues writing to the UDMA card I was using. This camera is very fast at shooting and writing - with the 5DII even with it's 3.9 fps frame rate I can shoot bursts and catch the buffer up occasionally. So the good news is the AF and speed are first class on this camera. Now for the mixed news - the high ISo performance is not up with the 5DII. I was shooting at ISO 800 and ISO 1600 due to the low light with the 70-200 F2.8 non IS lens (I have not yet set micro adjust on the 7D but I need -2 on my 5DII). The shots are quite noisy but quite usable - there will be no problem at ISO 800 up to about 11x17 and ISo 1600 is clearly good enough for 10x8. Perhaps not 1DIII quality but good never the less - it is a shame Canon did not make this a 12MP body with 5DII like high ISO performance. Here are the shots - not pre-selected but just the first three I randomly selected - I have cropped slightly, converted to JPEG with some light sharpening and compressed to fit on screen.</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Second shot</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I forgot to mention the first shot is about 25% of the actual image - I cropped this one quite a lot. this third shot is about 35% of the origional shot</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>In summary I am quite pleased with the 7D after just a quick trial. I have not yet determined how to get the best from the AF but it seems not to matter that much. Frame rate and writing speed are not an issue with this body and the High ISO performance is quite good. I just compared some older 5DII shots and the shots at ISO 800 are less noisy than the 5DII at 3200 and the ISO 1600 shots are very close to the 5DII at ISO 3200</p>

[dmanthree]

<p>I just shot a high school football game last night, and use the center cluster AF zone and Servo mode. The results were very good, so I'd try that and adjust as necessary.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>Focus looks good. What ISO were you using? I'm planning to buy a 7D for birding instead of my 5D2, but I'm worried about high ISO performance right at dawn. Looking at test shots, it looks like the 7D will be good up to ISO 1600 with some NR applied in processing.</p>

[serguei_fenev]

<p>Thank you, Philip, for the update!<br>

I was thinking about 7D as a cheaper alternative to 1DIII (maybe IV) - not sure now based on image quality at high ISO (1600-3200). The more 7Ds hit shelves the more information we will have to make a decision. Again it is subjective - some people could be happy with 7D as it would deliver quality to their expectations and some would be looking for a better (and more expensive) options. Thanks again for your posting here.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Philip,<br>

Did you get the chance to use a 1D MkIIn the same evening? That is a comparison I am interested in, especially as the secondhand 1 series can now be had for less than a 7D.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Here are some more and a 1D IIN and 5DII shots both taken last year. First the 5DII</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Next the 7D at ISO 800</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>next the 7D at 1600</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Now the 1DIIN at ISO 3200</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>These crops to show noise and will all print at roughly the same size here is the 5DII at 3200</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>7D at ISO 800</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>7D at ISO 1600</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>1D IIN at ISO 3200</p><div></div>

[philip_wilson]

<p>These shots show the limitations of the 7D at high ISO. When examined in photoshop so that they print the same size the 5DII has about 0.5 to 1 stop less noise than the 1DIIN. The 1DIIN has very similar noise to the 7D at ISO 800 (i.e. 2 stops better) and the &D at ISO 1600 is clearly quite noisy. All shots were taken at about LV7 but the 7D shots were taken in an arena with more of a colour cast to the lighting. When printed at the same size the 800 ISO 7D shot and 3200 ISO 1DIIN shot will have about the same noise - the 1DIIN noise is slightly smoother but the 7D has slightly more resolution. in answer to your question Scott the 1DIIN is clearly better at high ISO by at least 2 stops - the real weakness of the 7D is the large number of megapixels crammed onto the sensor. As I said earlier the AF and speed is first class - later in the winter I will shoot ski racing with the 7D and see what it is like at lower ISO - you can sometimes get away with 200-400 ISO</p>

[madza_zulu]

<p>When comparing noise you have to resize the 7D to 1D II size or compare it using sRAW or mRAW. You'll find 7D is less noisy than 1D II as other people have found out.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Philip,</p>

<p>Thank you very much for posting your findings and being so straight forward and honest with your results. My thinking is now back on track, if it that close to a 1D MkIIn then it might be worth having as a much smaller second body with video, a good screen, and few other nice additions. Thanks again.</p>

<p>Madza,</p>

<p>No you don't, in Philips case he has to do what he does, make sale-able prints the best way he can from them, the better camera is the better camera. He says for his work and his prints the 1D MkIIn does beat the 7D in noise at 800, 1600 and, it is very obvious, at 3200. you either believe him or you don't, I don't have any problem believing him, it is a result I expected.</p>

<p>Can you point me to these "other people" and their results that favour the 7D?</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Scott when I picked up the body in the USA during the week the results at high ISO looked fine on screen but once I was able to do the side by side the high ISO is obvious. The rest of the body's performance is great and so long as you do not need to go above ISO 800 it will be a very good performer.<br>

Madza - the crops when displayed at the smae size remove the effct of different pixel count. When you do this you will see that the 7D at ISO 800 has about the same noise as the 1DIIN at 3200. I will try some shots in mRAW next time I shoot sport but I do not expect to see a big improvement in the 7D noise performance. It is a great camera but high ISO noise is it's big flaw. In essence Canon has produced two great xD bodies both of which have a key weakness. The 5DII is the better all around camera as it is great at everything except action sports where the AF is a weak point. The 7D is really a good body for sports but is not a great performer outside of this environment..</p>

[jimstrutz]

<p>Philip, your 7D images weren't shot in raw an converted in Adobe Camera Raw were they? Everyone's been complaining about the beta 7D drivers in ACR. Has Adobe finalized these yet? I know there have been other beta ACR converters that were pretty awful, but were greatly improved in the final version.</p>

[thierry nguyen cuu - nomad]

<p>Nice post Philip,<br>

Thanks for your time.<br>

I still think that Canon DDP is the best to edit .CR2 files and way faster as well.<br>

The new DDP even introduced Shadow and Highlight correction, which can be useful sometimes.</p>

<p>I just posted a video here and some 100% crop images taken from the Canon 7D and the Nikon D700 for AF comparison.<br>

All shot in JPEG and edited with DPP with the same ingredients:<br>

<a href="http://nomadphotography.com.au/blog/2009/10/canon-7d-and-nikon-d700-confrontation/">http://nomadphotography.com.au/blog/2009/10/canon-7d-and-nikon-d700-confrontation/</a></p>

[jimstrutz]

<p>I just checked the Adobe website. Canon 7D is not listed as supported by the latest versions of either ACR or Lightroom. http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html. However, they do put this notice at the bottom of the page: <em>"Note: Adobe is often able to provide preliminary support for raw files from new camera models not listed above. Camera Raw and Lightroom will open and edit these files, but profiling and testing is not complete."</em></p>

<p>So if these were shot raw and processed in ACR or Lightroom, no conclusion can be made about noise from them.</p>

 

[hal_b]

<p>Philip: You should not be seeing such disparities in noise control between the cameras you sampled. I haven't used the 7D yet, but there is plenty of imperical data out there already demonstrating that it handles low-light as competently as previous cameras, if not better. Maybe you have a bad sample. You should return it if you are not satisfied.</p>

<p>I still can't see any noise in the hockey shots until you crop all the way into the words on the boys' shorts. I don't even want to consider the point of which camera image has less noise when amplified 100x. I'm interested in does the noise matter in any practical situation at all?</p>

<p>Your photos taken with the 7D are underexposed and undersaturated. Also, you appear to be having focus and blur problems which are much more drastic than the noise you are seeing. Maybe you need to spend more time with the 7D to learn how to use it confidently. The 5D photos look fine, but then I'll bet that's your favorite camera and you've had more practice using it.</p>

<p>Finally, part of what you are seeing is chroma noise, because on the 7D you cropped in on the boy with the dirty shorts, so "Bauer" is yellow, while with the other cameras you cropped in on clean, white lettering.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Hal - the exposure problem is not real (histograms are fine - it is due to using ACR 5.5 to convert. A conversion in DPP is definately better and imporves the images by at least a stop. here are some crops. Some of the issues are clearly due to my own error in using Adobe for all 3 cameras (the 5DII shots are JPEGs at the 5DII is very slow in RAW). Here is a crop with the 7D at ISO 800 opened using DPP. I am sure that I do need some practice with the 7D but as you can see from the 5DII and 1dIIN this will happen - remember I am trying to post some shots quickly and the 7D handles slightly differently from the other two bodies - especially the AF. that said the blurring is not a focus issue but something related to the camera / software.</p><div></div>