Party shots in darker rooms with a 5d/430EX

[alesandro_shavit]

<p>Unretouched , out of the camera picture.. Above 2 are also unretouched, I wouldn't post for the matter of experiment retouched photos...</p><div></div>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>William W wrote: I do not see any relevance in necessarily purposefully choosing a fast lens for this job, when using Flash. I would be interested in reading the rationale for this suggestion. . . .</em></strong><br>

<strong><em></em></strong><br>

<strong><em>I meant that using fast lens will help him shoot without flash using natural light . . . etc</em></strong></p>

<p>Thank you for answering my question.</p>

<p>I understand that a fast lens is required for shooting in low light without Flash. I agree.</p>

<p>I misunderstood the point of your suggestions for those particular Fast Prime lenses: because the OP's question was specifically about using a Flash and the tweaking of the Flash.<br>

<br>

WW</p>

 

[lovcom_photo]

<p><em>Joey Allen Wrote "I can't fathom using f/8 for anything indoors. In fact, I can't imagine using anything slower than f/2.8 for anything indoors. Plus, if you decide to combine flash with dragging your shutter, you'll get visible or even serious ghosting in any shots where 1) your shutter speed is a slower fraction of a second than your focal length is long, or 2) where the subjects are moving at all. Ghosting occurs when the subject moves while the shutter is open and there is adequate light to "burn" the subject into the sensor's image at any point during the motion. The best solution, IMO, is fast primes and/or high ISOs."</em></p>

<p>Joey, I've taken tens of thousands of pictures in dark churches, restuarants, and other dark reception venues, using F8 and 1/15s or 1/20s and these speeds are NEVER too slow nor will cause a blur, nor trails and the resulting pictures are razor sharp too. You must remember that just because the shutter speed is 1/15s, does not mean the flash is that slow. The flash is actually a lot faster and that flash freezes motion.<br />As to fast primes, we agree becaus even though I might never need F1.2 of F1.4, those fast lenses mean faster more accurate AF acquistion and that is a great thing.</p>

<p>F2.8 or faster is too narrow of a DOF for most shots where there is more then one person. F8 means big fat DOF as required, and the resulting "slow" shutter speed when flashing will not result in motion or handshake blur when one knows how to properly shoot, and here is a good starting point for must churches using a 50mm:</p>

<p>Body in Manual, ISO 400, flash in E-TTL mode, Flash EC 1/3.<br />Shutter 1/20s or 1/15s, aperture F8.<br />Given must EV, this recipe will result in excellent images having no blur from subject movement nor hand held movement. Of course as one is further away from the subject/s, and as EV darkens, then one will need to open up the aperture, and/or up the ISO and/or slow down the shutter.</p>

<p>Again, don't forget that when shooting in this mode (draggin the shutter), the body exposes the background, the flash the people's skin, and this bears repeating that a 1/15s shutter speed does not mean the flash will illuminate at 1/15s too...it will actually flash a heck of a lot faster.</p>

<p>Too often shooters have flashing problems because they perform indoor dark shots in Av mode, which forces them into the higher noisy ISO's and too wide apertures which result in too narrow DOF. It is these shooters that can't fathom shooting F8 and 1/15s, but once they learn, wow their pictures greatly improve!</p>

[lovcom_photo]

<p>William W, there are very good reasons to shoot with a prime faster then F2.8 even if the resulting portraits are using F2.8 or slower:<br>

Two great reasons: </p>

<p>(1) AF acquisition speed and accuracy, and</p>

<p>(2) a brighter view finder.</p>

[alesandro_shavit]

<p>yeah William I agree, I just thought he also wanted to know what would give him the best result shooting the party with low light :)</p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong><em>"there are very good reasons to shoot with a prime faster then F2.8 even if the resulting portraits are using F2.8 or slower"</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >Dan, I use a 5D. My personal repertoire is all Available Light and usually indoors and in low light.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >The difference in viewfinder brightness between a fast Prime (say F/1.4) and an F/2.8 zoom is negligible. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >If you don't believe me set a 50mm/F1.4 on a 5D and set M Mode and set Av = F/2.8 and then use the DoF preview button - even in a dark area the resultant difference is detail shadow one can see in the viewfinder is negligible and insignificant for anyone with reasonable eyesight.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >And I seriously doubt that AF acquisition or accuracy is going to be any quicker for practical, purposes with an F/1.4 or F/1.8 Prime than for the 16-35F/2.8 or 24-70F/2.8 (or the EF-S17 to 55F/2.8) . . . that is assuming the lens's AF drives are equal, in the first inst.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

<p > </p>

 

[lovcom_photo]

<p>William, I have two 5D's Mark I and one Mark II, and with both Marks, using an F2.8 or slower lens leaves the off-center focus points nearly unusable. This is not the case when I use an F1.2 or F1.4 lens. I almost never rely on the center FP...I prefer the off center ones, and for this reason I'm forced to shoot with fast primes when shooting weddings in dark churches. </p>

[William Michael]

<p>Dan, now that you have defined your general comment about AF Points much more specifically and for a specific shooting scenario . . . I think we might have to both agree and disagree on this point we are discussing. <br>

<br>

Not that I use the outer AF points all that much at all – in fact I can’t recall when last I did - so I am open to other's day-in, day-out experiences: <br>

<br>

But I just had a long play with the 5D and a selection of lenses: 24L, 16-35L, 35L, 35F/2, 50F/1.4, 85F/1.8, 100F/2.8M, 135L, 70-200F/2.8 and I found that, anecdotally, and from a about a two minute test of each only: <br>

<br>

1. In good light each lens nailed AF OK at the center and at the RH and LH edge - the 16 -35, 70-200, and 100F/2.8M included.<br>

<br>

2. In poor light (<em >and really difficult contrast edges</em>) ALL the lenses seemed worse AF at the outer AF points. <br>

<br>

3. Whether or not the 2.8 lenses were "less worse" than the others, I could not tell – <em >this is the point, now in question since you have clarified your comments. </em><br>

<em > </em><br>

I also usually use Prime lenses, especially in Dark Churches – this choice is not at issue – I am curious though about the outer AF point and if there is any noticeable differences between my 35L and 16 to 35L, for example – and I will continue to pursue that.<em ></em><br>

<br>

*** <br>

<br>

And how about the brightness / viewfinder test regarding your other comments, did you do that?<br>

<br>

WW </p>

<p > </p>

 

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"yeah William I agree, [</em></strong><em>what the question was about</em><strong><em>] I just thought he also wanted to know what would give him the best result shooting the party with low light :)"</em></strong><br>

<br>

To be clear: My comment detailing what the question was about, was to explain my request for further explanation from you - it was not demeaning your contribution or your intent - i.e. I had not "tone" in my comment.<br>

<br>

WW </p>

 

[ejder]

<p>Brightness of viewfinder would be different if you were using a different focus screen, like the ee-s for a 5D. I don't notice a brightness difference from f/2.8 to any wider aperture; the matte screens are designed to collect as much light as possible, at the expense of precise focus distinguishing by the eye. You might also notice that visible DoF does not get as narrow in the viewfinder as it appears in the photo when using a fast prime, f/1.4 or wider. Again, it's the focus screen.<br /><br />I have not noticed my outer AF points perform any better in low light while using a 35L vs. a 24-70L. Both the 35L and 24-70L focus fairly well in low light using the center point, but the outer points are almost useless in low light and AI servo. With One Shot, I can use a hot shoe flash for focus assist - but that doesn't do any good when I'm tracking moving subjects during a processional or dance. This is actually my main issue with the AF systems for the non-1D series cameras. If I ever bought another crop sensor camera, I'd be interested in seeing how the 7D performs for outer point AI servo.</p>

[ejder]

<p>As for dragging the shutter to get ambient light, the flash does freeze motion, but if there's enough light striking the subjects at any point in their motion to burn them into the sensor, you end up with ghosting. I have done it many times, and the result is consistent. Below is a sample shot taken with flash that also captured "ambient light" from the videographer's lights. His lights were extremely bothersome to me for this particular wedding: They were so bright that I could not beat them by shutter speed, nor could I work with them beneficially because the light quality was harsh, undiffused, and not at the angles I wanted.</p>

<p>Note the shutter speed is 1/80 sec and ISO250, showing how bright the videographer's lights were.<br />

<p><img src="http://www.resolutionplan.com/Joey/GhostingSample.jpg" alt="" width="700" height="467" /></p>

</p>

[picturesque]

<p>This is why it is dangerous to use recipes for anything, dragging the shutter especially. I have run across the video light problem before as well. You have your shutter drag ratio all worked out and then the videographer turns his light on or gets close enough to the subject to make the ambient brighter--brighter than the ambient EV one has built into one's shutter drag ratio, and then you are back to getting ghosting. Normally, I quickly make the shutter speed faster because the video light is generally a temporary condition, which destroys my background rendition, but only for the time the video light affects a fairly small number of photos. Sometimes, I make the ISO lower, so as not to destroy my on camera flash's relationship to my off camera flashes.</p>

<p>So f8 or f2.8--it doesn't matter which it is, re shutter drag. What matters is that the ambient light allowed to register in the scene is underexposed by at least 2 stops (and more if there is fast action). In other words, f8 @ 1/15th, X ISO is the same EV as f2.8 @ 1/125th, same ISO. What's missing is the difference between this EV and the ambient light EV. Both will work if the ambient EV is underexposed enough. For instance, I use f8 for the dreaded table shots, if I have to do them. If I had been using f2.8 @ 1/125th, X ISO previously, I can change to f8, 1/15th, same ISO and preserve my shutter drag ratio while increasing the DOF needed.</p>

<p>The f stop one uses should be chosen to give the DOF one wants, not because it is part of a recipe that works 'most of the time'. I actually use what many would consider too small an aperture (particularly today, with wide apertures all the time being popular) for fast dancing shots. I do it because I want to get the main subjects (usually there are two, but sometimes more), in focus. Even though I am usually using the wider focal lengths, I am sometimes very close to my subjects, and sometimes the subjects are fairly far apart (fast dancing) so subject distance being one of the things that governs DOF, I want to be reasonably sure I get the two subjects in focus plus have a margin of error. I never use AI Servo in low light and for fast action--too much room for error. Like most candids, you can't repeat stuff--so rather than shoot a continuous stream (which causes problems if using your flash, bouncing), hoping some have the focus point correctly placed, I employ a kind of zone focus when I follow action, using my * button or AF button to lock focus, and wait to press the shutter button at the right time. Slow dancing might be another story, where one can more accurately place point of focus and risk using wide apertures with more success.</p>

<p>So instantly saying that 1/60th is too fast and will result in cave like exposures, while 1/15th or 1/20th will work, does not make any sense when one does know the ambient light level. Same thing when saying using the longer shutter speeds (not following the focal length guideline) will result in ghosting. Again--we are missing one fact--the ambient EV.</p>

<p>Also Alesandro--the Lumiquest 3 does not act like a big softbox. It acts like a small softbox, because that is what it is. Because it is a small softbox, particularly in relation to a human being, it does not, by itself provide much in the way of soft light because even though it provide some diffusion, it still isn't so significantly larger than the shoemount reflector to provide significantly softer light. However, since the OP does not think she has adequate bouncing surfaces, this kind of size (which can also be accomplished with a white card) may be the best that can be done in her situation (no off camera lights and having to stay mobile).</p>

[William Michael]

<p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > For Digital capture, I use a 20D, 30D, and 5D at Weddings and similar functions.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Frankly, compared to some, I am quite Brutal and Archaic with my Flash Technique, oft favouring a simple White Card Bounced and Off Camera Flash (held in my left hand).</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I do NOT use AI Servo in any Camera for Dance Sequences. I most often use a wider lens Prime (24L on the APS-C or 35L on the 5D) and employ a Pre-Determined Zone Focus.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >If I nail the balance between the Ambient Exposure and the Flash Exposure correctly, the increased DoF by taking a smaller aperture is insignificant with respect to the Final Product highlighting the Dancing Subjects - what I mean is - the light does the job of what Shallow DoF Technique will do in Full Sunlight.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >The premise of using light and dark to emphasise the Subject, (rather than DoF) is no different to how we might address some situations in a Studio.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think we might find techniques employing Pre Focus Points; Zone Focussing; and Manual Zone Flash are practiced more by those who have shot with Film, and who began shooting with film when those techniques were mostly all which were available.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think it is important to remember that a technological advance of itself, does not necessarily represent the best solution for all circumstances.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >On another topic raised in this thread: I continued, last night - (at an award function, by coincidence) - to play with the outer AF points in my 5D, (in low light). For most of the night I had a 35L on the 5D - basically I found the outer AF points useless - I found a similar experience on a 30D which had the 16-35L</p>

<p > </p>

<p >So, even though I was using two different bodies, and I know that does not constitute an A/B test - I am yet to be convinced that the outer AF points are any better (or less worse) using a faster lens than an F/2.8 lens – in low light / low contrast situations. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

</p>

<p > </p>

[ejder]

<p>I heard that the outer points for the new 7D may be good. It's almost worth switching back to crop sensor cameras - but not quite.</p>