Wedding Photographer Issues

[laura_tonner]

<p>Hi there, I am looking for a bit of advice. We have had terrible experiences with our wedding photographer (we have been waiting 5 months for our online gallery as we only have half of it and he appears to have disappeared off the face of the planet). Anyway - we are in the process of starting court proceedings against him as we are getting nowhere. Thanks to a lovely man on here we have been in contact with other folk that have had the same issues with said photographer so we know this is not a one off. Anyway, the other day we were looking on flickr at his account and clicked on one of his contacts only to find some of our wedding photos posted up on their profile. It turns out this is the flickr account of his apprentice who was at our wedding (we did not know this person was coming to the wedding until the morning of our wedding when he appeared). We never really had much of an issue with it as we thought the more photographers the better eh? BUT now we do not have our wedding photos yet someone is posting them up online. To make matters worse it is photos of our friend's children. We were never asked for permission to use these and would never have granted permission for these to be posted even without the issues we are facing. On our contract with our wedding photographer it states that no images will be publicly displayed unless permission is granted from us. Soooo I am just looking for advice on what to do next? We have contacted the apprentice and asked him to remove the images but should this be included in court proceedings? What else can we do? (Thankfully my brother is a lawyer so can advise on the legal side of things but I am looking for a prof photographers advice on what u would do).<br>

Many thanks</p>

[howard_m]

<p>sounds like the situation has moved past 'advice' and into 'breach of contract' territory.</p>

<p>the dude has disappeared, you dont have what you contracted for, he took your money and he broke 1 and more points of the contract.</p>

[theresa_skutt]

<p>I get really upset when I hear about photographers doing things like this. It gives us all a bad reputation, and most of us are honest, hard-working people who really care about their clients.<br>

Just ask the apprentice to take them down, unless you feel you're really upset about something else. Having been in his position, I am sure he's just looking to show his work, not upset you. <br>

If you work with the 2nd photographer/apprentice, maybe he can help you get what you need, as he obviously has a relationship with the other guy. Make sure you file a complaint online where prospective clients will see it and he'll lose work. Keep after the first guy--he's the culprit.</p>

[alonzo_e]

<p>I would definitely pursue the photographer that you cannot find. Ask him to come clean with the terms of the contract. Whenever considering court proceedings, the easiest way to recover damages is to have evidence that you were attempting to contact this person and he never got back in touch with you. As far as the second photographer, I would not hold him liable for the pictures he took. Many secondary photographers have desires on being the main photographer and the pictures taken will serve as a way to market his skills..<br>

Another thing to consider is the fact that this photographer may be going through some of the changes this current economy is putting on many of it's citizens. No excuse for a breach of contract, but I would make an attempt to see how the photographer is conducting current business.<br>

At the end of the day you have the conditions that were promised to you for your special day. Make sure you make a good case and can show evidence that you attempted to contact the photographer, and you should be ok. One other thing to keep in mind: Even if you do prevail, no amount of money can replace the capturing of emotions and feelings for the day of the wedding that the original photographer captured.<br>

Good luck.</p>

[gregory_c]

<p>OK, time to get ugly. Do you know his real name ? Where did you meet ? his house, your house, central location ? Did you try whitepages.com ? Try other cities on search. If you know his real name, start calling the local pro camera stores; say I am looking for a wedding photographer, think his name is xxxxxxxx. Contacting local labs not a good source anymore, everybody ships work off now. The apprentice should know how to find him. BUT do <strong>not</strong> tell apprentice or lab why you are looking for him. Tell them he left a lens at your wedding & you are trying to get it back to him. I know it is lying, but it will get the info you want.</p>

[john_deerfield]

<p>As far as the apprentice goes, contact him or him and simply explain the situation and ask him or her to take down the images. On the bright side, you might ask this person for a disc of the images they took since they obviously have them! And continue with legal proceedings against your primary photographer. In terms of this photographer giving us a bad name, well I just don't see it that way. There are poor performers in any industry. And for all we know, this wasn't a properly vetted sub-$1000-I-have-a-digital-camera-so-I-am-a-photographer photographer. I am not saying that is the case here, but I do know that this "photographer" isn't giving me a bad name!</p>

[jon rennie]

<p>I would suggest trying everything you can to get in contact with the photographer first before taking it to court. Try something a little more creative to get a face to face meeting. If you can't get in contact with him at all and you think he is ignoring you, pose as a new client by sending an email from his site under a different name/email and try to schedule a meeting. It's sneaky, but it should work because all photographers love new work.<br>

I wouldn't blame the 2nd photographer. He was probably told something different. Just ask him politely to remove the images and it should work. If you have trouble with this you can always request the images be removed by contacting flickr.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Ok...Since you've contacted the apprentice already and asked him / her to remove images - the lie about saying the photographer left a lens at the wedding probably isn't going to fly. Also 5 months is a long time to hold onto a lens without contacting the photographer ;-)</p>

<p>Seriously - Get out your contract and look for the terms and conditions - what did he promise to provide you with? Did he meet those dates? What does it say about a release of photos? Is there any balance due on your part?</p>

<p>Without knowing those things it's pretty tough to comment from any stand point. But what the heck...</p>

<p>Did you google the photographer? good starting point of any search for anyone in the US. If this isn't a 1 off - check the BBB - chances are they've got a file on this guy. Unfortunately there are some photographers who do these things and give all a bad name. The sad thing is that you usually don't find out until it's too late. The most common scam with them is to claim "Health Problems" and then disappear with your money and photos. Health Problems are very tough to fight in court and unless you have a group of people with similar circumstances the best you can hope for is a victory in small claims court.</p>

<p>As for the pictures showing up on line in a flickr account - check your contract - 99% of photographers have a pharse in their contract that reads something like this: "Client agrees that photographer retains the ownership rights and has the right to use any and all photos from this session to promote their business in any way or median they deem appropriate or necessary" Once you sign that - you're done. 90% of the courts in the country will not even look at your case at that point. Doesn't matter if the people in the photos are minors, guests, etc... Now if there was a clause in the signed contract that states - "The images are not to be displayed on-line except in a secure password protected site or a non-public site - " then you've got something.</p>

<p>There is also a misconception around the use / publishing of the images in general. If the photographer is simply putting the images on their site - and not implying an endorsement or promotion - then they are likely in the clear on that. There is a rule regarding expectation of privacy - if the person being photographed has a reasonable expectation of privacy then you may have legal grounds. Example: if you are inside your house and someone snaps a photo of you through the window - that is a violation of your privacy. If on the other hand - you are attending a wedding...the expectation of privacy doesn't typically apply. It really comes down to what is in the contract and the expectation of privacy.</p>

<p>Absent agreement in the contract - the only thing you can do is what you've done - Ask the photographer to remove the photos from his account and hope that they comply. Most will remove them when asked..but some will not just to prove a point.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[gregory_c]

<p>Come on David,,,<br>

<em>the lie about saying the photographer left a lens at the wedding probably isn't going to fly. Also 5 months is a long time to hold onto a lens without contacting the photographer ;-)</em><br>

Sure sounds good !!!</p>

[my-portfolio]

<p>I would't antagonize the second shooter overly much, unless you have a better idea of the relationship between him and the main photographer (it might very well have been the first time he worked with the guy, coming in with a pro to get some experience). If the main has flown the coops the second might be a way to salvage at least some images, as others have said.</p>

[dave_wilson1]

<p>Too much of this on here lately. Seems like we are becoming a sounding board for victims of people who bought a camera and a box of business cards and passed them out. I also totally give the second shooter a pass on this, he was a day-hand and probably just getting into his own work. Your beef is with the contracted business, if there really is one, and you might need the second on your side to help thing along. Again, no excuses for this stuff unless perhaps the gent is badly ill or something drastic happened, hopefully not.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Yeah Greg, I know... But I also know what my lenses cost - and if I leave one behind - I don't wait for 5 months to start tracking it down!!!!</p>

<p>Who knows...it might work... or it might backfire and drive the "photographer" deeper in the hole.</p>

<p>Dave W - I agree - this is the 3rd active posting that I'm aware of this week dealing with a bad photographer and weddings. Maybe Mary should create a forum just for compliants about wedding photographers.</p>

<p>Sadly - I think it's a sign of the times - people are being more careful and frugal with their money and want resolution to their issues - It's also been pointed out that anyone can buy a digital SLR and some lenses and call themselves a wedding photographer. States / localities vary so much in what if any permits / licenses are required, plus again, as times get tougher it does seem like a quick way to make a buck or two.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[William Michael]

<p><em><strong>Soooo I am just looking for advice on what to do next? We have contacted the apprentice and asked him to remove the images</strong></em><br />Has he done so?<br /><br />*** <br /><br /><em><strong>but should this be included in court proceedings?</strong></em> <br />IMO, no.<br /><br />If your main goal is to get your Wedding Photos, to which the Apprentice might have access, it seems to me you are reducing any leverage you might have pursuing that avenue by thinking about taking legal action against him.<br /><br />On the face of it, IMO, he has done nothing wrong.<br /><br />*** <br /><br /><em><strong>What else can we do? </strong></em><br /><br />You have started legal proceedings against the (main) Photographer, and your brother is a lawyer, then you must pursue that – or quit it.<br /><br />*** <br /><br /><em><strong>"On our contract with our wedding photographer it states that no images will be publicly displayed unless permission is granted from us."</strong></em><br /><br />I suggest you check that: get your brother's legal advice on the actual meaning, in concert with its application regarding the display of images for editorial purposes (or what ever the term is in your jurisdiction).<br /><br />***<br /><br /><em><strong>"To make matters worse it is photos of our friend's children."</strong></em><br /><br />Why? - does it "make matters worse"?<br /><br />If however for some reason you (or the Parents of the Children) do not want these Photographs displayed on the WWW, then contact the Apprentice and ask (politely) that they be removed. But as I have already mentioned - consider what you main aim is - is it to procure your Wedding Photos - or vent spleen?<br /><br />After deciding what your aim is then I suggest you decide your actions based upon achieving that aim, only.<br>

Also consider that the Apprentice might be well within his legal rights to say, "Sorry but no thanks - they're my pictures and they are staying put."<br>

<br />***<br /><br />I also suggest that you do not follow any advice which involves making up stories or telling lies.<br /><br />WW</p>

 

[laura_tonner]

<p>Thank everyone for the replies. The guy we used (the main guy) was actually someone we found at the SECC Wedding Fayre in Scotland. We were impressed by his portfolio and he seemed very professional. His website was professional and we searched for any bad reviews online and all we could find was positive reviews for him and his work (we do now realise that the online reviews were for non-wedding work which was a huge mistake on our part).</p>

<p>We have spoken again with the company the guy is now affiliated with and they stated that he is abroad. He was meant to return last week but has decided to stay longer. I am not saying for a second that he should drop everything for us but it's not just the timescale thing (we have had tons of issues with this guy that are too long and drawn out to go on here) .<br>

<br />@Gregory C - we do indeedy know his real name and address (thank goodness the power of the internet) so we sent the completed court form to his house. We are HOPING that will give him a jolt to finish our prints when he returns.<br>

<br />@ William W - I feel it is worse because it is someone else's kids and they do not know that images of their children have been posted on a public forum. I know that if I saw a photo of my daughter online when I had not been asked then I would not be impressed. And so far he's not removed them but he may just not have checked his emails yet.</p>

<p>Thank you also for everyone's clarification/understanding on what can and cannot be published - it is really appreciated. As I said before there is a part of the contract that states that if we request our online gallery to be password protected then the will not use our images on any public galleries without our OK first but I suppose the aprentice may not fall under that contract.<br />And we haven't been too mean to the apprentice - we have emailed asking him to remove the images but with the suggestions on here we have also asked if he has any images of the day he would be interested in letting us see. And as everyone says - our gripe is not with the apprentice at all so we will cut him some slack.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone again for all their feedback and suggestions! It was really helpful having the opinions and feedback from professional photographers who know the business inside out.</p>

<p>Laura</p>

[William Michael]

<p ><em>"@ William W - I feel it is worse because it is someone else's kids and they do not know that images of their children have been posted on a public forum. I know that if I saw a photo of my daughter online when I had not been asked then I would not be impressed."</em></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I have two children (now adult - well just about anyway) - I mention that to establish I am a parent. I understand the "parent" reaction. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I also am a Photographer and have taken many Photos of Children, which have been displayed in many Public Forums - many without asking direct permission, as such.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think the internet (as public forum) makes people react differently than if the image of a Child were in a Photographer's gallery or album at the studio, for example.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think the world is more "on alert" too, which is good and perhaps also bad - because images like the POW this week (contains two children) are just simply beautiful.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you for answering my question. All the best with your quest.</p>

<p > <br>

WW</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>In the US, typically if you have initiated legal proceedings, you should not be discussing it on the web or publicly, etc. That's a question you should address to your brother.</p>

<p>Actually, the apprentice may turn out to be your hero, he may, at least, have some pictures.</p>

<p>In the US, as others have pointed out, there is no general legal issue about posting pictures without permission. A wedding is not a private event, other people there could just have easily taken pictures and posted them. That's what people do these days. However, since there is a contract clause requiring permission, then one would expect the apprentice to be bound by the terms binding the primary photographer, after all, the apprentice was there working for him. Again, another question for your brother.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Laura -</p>

<p>Since I'm on the other side of the pond, I can't comment on the legalities of your situation, however I can comment on a couple of things that you pointed out in your last post... </p>

<p>1. Sounds like the photographer who actually did your wedding is not an independent, but rather is himself an employee or contractor working for someone else. Please correct me if I misunderstood that. If he is indeed working for someone else - you may not have an action against him, but rather the company that he is working for.</p>

<p>2. He is aboard and has decided to stay for a while longer... That raises some concerns regarding his general business sense - If he was planning to go aboard before shooting your wedding - he should have mentioned that fact to you, or put some type of a delay into his contract with you to indicate that he would be out of pocket for a period of time. Granted 5 months is a long time - I generally go for 2 - 4 weeks to turn around images - 6 weeks is my worst case. But sending him court papers won't do much good if he's not around to accept or respond to them.</p>

<p>3. Kids photos... I'm a parent and I shoot a lot of photos of children - both my own and other people's. Rule #1 - I make sure that the kids are in a "public" place. Rule #2 - I do not post any names or addresses of the children. If there is a name associated with the photo, it's in a password protected folder. Rule #3 - Most of the parents who children I take photos of either don't pay any attention to them being on-line or don't care. I had a parent looking at photos on the phone with me the other day - we were looking for a photo of another child - and she goes "Wow! There's my daughter! I didn't know you had any of her!". Bottom line - if there's not a name / address / phone number attached - it's not that big of a deal...and I'm saying that as a parent, not a photographer.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[mart_e]

<p><em>I also suggest that you do not follow any advice which involves making up stories or telling lies. WW<br /> </em><br>

I would wholeheartedly agree with that statement. Should the issue reach court, fabrication and lies spread by you will come back and bite you. I have been in court on at least 3 occassions where the Judge has ruled in our favour on the basis of fabrication from the other party (licensing and building Contract issues) - almost irrespective of the facts of the case. Judges here like to see a clear factual documented case history. You undermine your legitimate arguments by including lies elsewhere (however well intentioned).<br>

Good luck, Martin</p>

[laura_tonner]

<p>Thanks everyone again for all the advice. We had a lovely email from the apprentice this morning apologising for posting the images and offering us copies of the photos he took on the day so *hopefully* we will have some images of the day which is a huge boost so thank you to the people that suggesting asking him! We also received an email late last night from our main photographer agreeing to have the images completed in 2 weeks so *hopefully*....<br>

Thanks again for all the help and advice - I realise that this is not probably the best most appropriate place to ask for advice against a photographer (as it is a webste for professional photographers) but you have all been so helpful and we really appreciate it!</p>

<p>L</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Glad to hear it is working out. </p>

<p>As far is this being the proper place - I think it absolutely is. We tend to be harsh on each other and sometimes it not only helps you, but also helps others to avoid the situation!</p>

<p>Dave</p>