Fast 2.8 lens not fast enough

[bradley_nielsen]

<p>I got the sigma 24-70 2.8 lens and used it at my first wedding. Love 2.8 for low light, but it's still not enough to stop action. Here was the situation:</p>

<p>Pretty normal indoor lighting at nighttime. Using 2.8 aperture on my D80 @ ISO 800 and tripod. Shutter speeds about 1/15 to 1/30 (sometimes slower, because i don't want to underexpose at ISO 800). No movement and this is fine with my tripod, but even slow movement gets blurred. Result was a ton of unusable blurry pictures and had to use my SB600 flash.</p>

<p>I can't go above ISO 800 because it's way too grainy (800 is bad enough). Don't want to use a prime lens to get 1.4 aperture because it's too soft focus. Do i have any options here besides using my flash. The only time i like using flash is when adding ambient light as well and that takes my shutter down to the 1/15 to 1/30 sec anyways. Even then, my highest sync speed with my flash is 1/60 sec and that only stops action half the time. What do I do in this situation??? Comes up at every wedding, please help. If my only option is newer, better equipment, please make recommendations.</p>

<p>Thank You Everyone!</p>

<p> </p>

[aok photography]

<p>I use a D80 w/ Tamron 17-50 2.8 and had the same problem. So i invested in a external flash (SB600) to use bounce flash and a sto-fen to defuse the flash. This might be your best investment.</p>

[aok photography]

<p>Sorry, did'nt see that you had a SB600... opps</p>

[markonestudios]

Hello Bradley, I would strongly suggest you start here: http://www.planetneil.com/tangents and read about dragging the shutter. When I shot film exclusively, I never went beyond ISO 400 film. I used bounce flash, but employing the shutter dragging techniques made my photos infinitely better. Sharp, well exposed and frankly, more visually appealing. I was mostly at 1/30 and below. I employ the same techniques now with my digital. The principle remains the same...

[anna_bravington]

<p>In the UK we have loads of these types of problems as we have loads of dark old churches and most of the time you are not allowed to use flash. It was an absolute nightmare trying to capture pictures. My fave lens is the Sigma 18-50 2.8, but I sometimes got out a 1.4 prime - but still had problems.<br>

Then I got a nikon d90 - I can push the iso easily up to 2000 - have been up to 3200 and with a bit of Noise Ninja it is usable.<br>

Also the d300 is good for high iso, but is a bit more expensive.<br>

The only other option is to use flash or some of the techniques listed abouve.</p>

[frolickingbits]

<p>Quick and easy answer-use flash. Your problem indoors isn't just the quantity of light, it's quality as well-even if you had the D300 and could push your ISO up to 3200, if you're in a standard convention center kind of location, the quality of light will still be quite bad, even though your photos will be properly exposed.<br>

A point about flash that I think a lot of newcomers (and even some more seasoned photographers) miss is that it isn't just a tool of last resort to fix a light quantity problem-when used correctly, it can greatly improve the quality of light as well. I shoot almost all my wedding photos with flash in one form or another, and I rarely push my camera beyond ISO 400.<br>

Another note-your D80 should be able to sync up to at least 1/200, so I'm not sure why you say your max sync speed is only 1/60. 1/30 with bounced flash will be enough to stop action-your flash will freeze the subject, and the 1/30 will drag in some of the ambient light.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Normal indoor lighting level is around EV5 and ISO800, f/2.8 and 1/30s is a proper exposure for that.</p>

<p>If you are not allowed to use flash you need to get a faster lens (f2-f1.2), a better camera (D90 is 1 stop better, D700 2 stops) or shoot higher ISO and improve you postprocessing skills.</p>

<p>If you are allowed to use flash then you have your solution right there :-) If it doesn't look good then you need to improve your flash skills and you may need to go to off camera flash techniques.</p>

<p>Why not start with your post processing skills and flash techniques as that may require the least amount of monetary investment? How you process your raw files is very important. Tone curves (shadows), sharpening and noise reduction have a major impact on the end result. I'd shoot the D80 at 1600 without worries.</p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Mark, from his description, I think Bradley is already dragging the shutter @ 1/15th and 1/30th to capture ambient light.</p>

<p>To understand how this works just remember these basics: The camera controls the ambient background exposure, the flash controls the foreground exposure. The power of a flash doesn't vary, it is the duration that it is "on" that determines flash exposure of the foreground. The flash duration is much faster than the shutter speed when dragging the shutter, so it allows you to "freeze" the foreground action. </p>

<p>However, all of this completely depends on how much ambient light there is. If you are in a very dark reception hall shooting people dancing fast, then you have to capture a ton of ambient light to open up the backgrounds. That requires either a faster aperture and/or a higher ISO, or auxiliary lighting beyond on-camera. If f/2.8 and ISO 800 is the limit you are working with, then the shutter speed is the only tool left to let in more ambient light.</p>

<p>As you lower the shutter speed you introduce the possibility of movement in the form of secondary image overlap ... where the flash freezes the action but the camera also captures some of the subject blur at the same time ... the result is a blurred image.</p>

<p>This effect can be mitigated somewhat with the use of "second shutter" (if your camera/flash supports it). This is where the flash fires at the end of the camera's shutter travel rather than at the beginning. The result is that the blur trails the subject rather than overlaps it (think speeding car at night with light trails behind it). This technique is somewhat hit-or-miss because brights in the background can overlap the subject also.</p>

<p>The solution when working with constraints imposed by your lens aperture and ISO performance is to jack up the flash performance with a more powerful flash and use bounce or a diffuser to mitigate the look of flash. The more powerful the flash, the faster the duration when NOT being used at full power. The faster the duration the more "freeze" action it is. A SB900 doesn't have to work as hard as SB600 so its flash duration is faster because it's not using all of its output to light the same scene.</p>

<p>The best solution to the problem is a combination of all available tools to handle any situation that's thrown at you. A camera that performs well at ISO 1000 or 1250 (which I personally rarely exceed), a faster lens, and a more powerful flash. </p>

<p>Caveats: other factors that effect "blur" performance are: subject to camera distance (how far the flash has to throw light on the subject, which forces a longer flash duration until it reaches it's maximum duration), and how wide angle the lens is, (subject blur is less apparent when using the 24mm end of a zoom than it is when using the 70mm end). </p>

<p> </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"The solution when working with constraints imposed by your lens aperture and ISO performance is to jack up the flash performance with a more powerful flash and use bounce or a diffuser to mitigate the look of flash." Marc W. </em><br>

<em></em><br>

Exactly. Flash is your friend................</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Marc, you are of course right in everything you say but I think flash duration on speedlights isn't really an issue when it comes to people photography. I mean the SB600 has a 1/900 sec flash duration at full power. But if you trying to capture a bullet in flight then it a different matter altogether. Hopefully no bullets at the wedding reception though :-)</p>

[jon rennie]

<p>A better camera would help. I used to be that way, not being able to go above ISO800 on my 20D. Now that I have a camera which I can push way beyond that without any big quality drops (5DmII) it makes a world of difference.</p>

[william-porter]

<p>Bradley,</p>

<p>You've got several problems.</p>

<p>You need to get over your antipathy to flash. The calculations here are pretty simple. You can't open up more than f/2.8 because you're limited by your lens and by desirable depth of field. You can't slow the shutter down much below 1/30th sec. You feel you can't go above ISO. So what's that leave? Get more light! And you may need to get a more powerful flash. A better flash (as Marc W explained) should help freeze the action, regardless of the shutter speed.</p>

<p>My impression is that you need to learn more about how to use flash effectively. Some of what you said doesn't make a lot of sense to me. (I don't use Nikon stuff and perhaps I'm just missing something, so forgive me if that's the case.) But if you're using flash and still getting blurred subjects, then either you're doing something very wrong with the flash or there's another problem.</p>

<p>What other problem? Well, I'm wondering if the problem isn't partly camera shake. You said that things are working fine on a tripod. I wonder if your shutter technique doesn't need some work. If I'm shooting folks on the dance floor, I'm moving around pretty much all the time - yet I'm able to stop the movement just fine.</p>

<p>It's always fun to get a new camera, and a new camera (say, for you, a D90) might make some things easier. But honestly, there's no reason you should not be able to do what you want wi a D80, which is a very good camera. In your situation and thinking only about how to solve the problem you've described, I'd buy a new flash - and spend more time improving my flash technique - before I'd buy a new camera. </p>

[picturesque]

<p>I think the basic problem, Bradley, is that you aren't using the concept of dragging the shutter with flash correctly. Here is the exact article you need to read (from planetneil). Marc explains the concept as well, but it isn't an easy one to understand at first. I would read both the article and Marc's explanation several times, and then do some research on this forum to read other bits of information about it.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/">http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/</a></p>

<p>You can definitely stop motion with flash at nightime receptions using the gear you have.</p>

<p>Here is another previous thread.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00PFGA">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00PFGA</a></p>

[fotografz]

<p>Yes, you are right Pete ... I didn't mean to confuse the issue ... only trying to explain that any given flash always uses the same power, just a shorter or longer duration ... which is why it freezes the action. </p>

<p> </p>

[bob_osullivan]

<p>What is it about flash that you don't like? Maybe if we knew that, we could direct you. I agree with Nadine. The stuff you have should be adequate. Is there a problem with the flash being too harsh, mixed colors of light, what? Let us know. Since embracing flash some years ago and really studying it's use, I now use it at all my wedding shoots, indoors and out. The best part is, no one can ever tell weather I used it or not.</p>

<p>Your flash sync speed is actually 1/200th not 1/60th. And there is no need to shoot at 1/15th with flash. That's just dragging the shutter too much and you get ghosting. I'm guessing you have ghosting, and color imbalance.</p>

<p>For now google "dragging the sutter", "gelling the flash" and "balancing ambient and flash" to start. This will give you some ideas. Better yet post more specifics here.</p>

[bradley_nielsen]

<p>Thank you all for the great answers! I have been reading the articles on dragging the flash and i'm trying them out, thanks Nadine.</p>

<p>Bob, William, Mark - the problem i have always had with flash is inconsistency. Depending on the situation, i've had problems with harsh light (even though using diffusion and bouncing) and ghosting when dragging shutter. Again, when i get it down to 1/15 to 1/30 light is not harsh, but ghosting is apparent sometimes. Will rear curtain sync help this? Some of the articles will probably answer this, so i will also study those. But, when i get up to 1/60 action is frozen, but light can be harsh and then i will usually lower output until it looks better, this takes time and by the time i'm done playing around, the cake is cut and the first dance is over :( Another problem is distance and reload times. I do not have a battery pack and have never seriously looked into them because again i've always dreaded spending money on speedlights. I realise this is not practical now. With the distance problem, i've always thought i would either need another light placed wireless further from camera or an SB900, is this true? Also, my flash gets really hot when i use it about ten times in a row and the batteries get extremely hot, is this normal? Will a battery pack affect this too?</p>

<p>Sorry i am so useless when it comes to flash, but a few more questions. Played around today and figured out that you are all right my sync is 1/200 sec. what really confuses me is when i use my flash in aperture priority mode. This is my usual shooting mode and i figured out that i cannot get below 1/60 sec using exposure compensation, unless i change my camera to rear curtain sync. Anyone know why this is? When shooting with flash should i be in manual? And is there a big difference between rear curtain sync and dragging the shutter. I understand the concepts of both, but how does this affect say people dancing in a low lighting situation?</p>

<p>Thanks everyone for your help, sure to have more questions. </p>

<p> </p>

[bradley_nielsen]

<p>A. Davis - If 1/30 sec is enough to stop action AND bring in ambient light, why do i have ghosting at this shutter speed. Can you explain your technique and see if i'm messing something up?</p>

<p>Also, what is everyones thoughts about speedlights on stands vs. studio lights. I've been thinking about getting a couple of studio lights for these tricky lighting situations, dancing, etc. But, i love being portable so can a couple of speedlights be used as effectively?</p>

[bradley_nielsen]

<p>William - i forgot to answer your question on shutter technique. I</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Bradley, as I mentioned ... it all depends on what level of available light you are shooting in. That is the most important variable. </p>

<p>If you use 1/200th of a second in a relatively dark reception hall, you will not register much available light even at ISO800 with an aperture of f/2.8. Try it without flash and you'll see what I mean.</p>

<p>If you then add flash, the subject will be lit, but the background will be a wall of black or near black.</p>

<p>1/30th of a second shutter speed is NOT a fast enough to freeze action like on the dance floor unless the flash is the dominate source of light on the subject ... and even then, certain images may show some motion blur. </p>

<p>To avoid blur, the choice of shutter speed should be dictated by which focal length you are using and/or how much motion is going on in the scene. Few if any people can hold a 100mm still at 1/30th so the background will be motion blurred ... and at 1/30 someone fast dancing will be blurred ... try it without flash to see what I mean.</p>

<p>To avoid blur, ideally what you want is enough flash exposure to be the chief source of light on a subject that's in motion in order to freeze the action. The closer the background ambient light exposure is to the foreground flash exposure the more likely that you'll get some motion blur when you are dragging the shutter. The blur is caused by the ambient exposure overlapping the flash exposure because they were done at different capture times ... like 1/900th of a second flash capture simultaneous to a 1/30th ambient shutter speed capture which is blurred </p>

<p>BTW, if you are getting flash images that are to "flash looking" learn to compensate the flash itself. In a dark room the flash often tries to light the whole room so the foreground subjects get overexposed and blown out or are overly flashed and flat looking. Conversely, if you are tight in on the Bride wearing a white dress the flash will underexpose the image. Flash exposure control is dictated by the same rules as camera exposure. </p>

<p> </p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but weddings used to be a flash business. Before digital, film got very grainy beyond ISO 400 and it wasn't that long ago that ISO 160 (think Vericolor III back before even Portra) was as fast as it got. There simply wasn't any choice but to use flash. But that doesn't mean that everything looked like a snapshot. On-camera flash at least went on a bracket. Photographers would have an assistant with a second light on a pole for fill or hairlight or background "double lighting," and set up studio strobes in the corners of the reception hall to light the room. The pictures were beautiful. Just because digital can go to higher ISOs doesn't mean that it makes sense to completely give up on flash. Enough light is not necessarily good light. Learning to use flash and use it well puts a photographer in control of the light and makes great pictures possible where you might otherwise get only a blah picture, or have to work a lot harder because of lack of light. For anybody who's not comfortable with flash, go look at <a href="http://www.strobist.com">www.strobist.com</a>. If you learn the right tricks, good flash lighting can be cheap, easy and portable.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Bradley--you need to read the stuff I linked to and do your research. One thing at a time.</p>

<p>1. Harsh light. How are you using flash? Direct (flash head directly forward)? Bounced? Modified? As you'll see, if the flash is primary (over ambient), direct forward is going to be harsh. Bounced will be softer (if it is pure bounce). Modified depends on what the modifier is. The harshness of light itself doesn't have much to do with dragging the shutter. If you are reacting to black backgrounds, or high contrast of the light on the subject, that is a different story.</p>

<p>2. If you are dragging the shutter now, and getting ghosting, you are missing the concept. The flash exposure should be 'correct' for your subject but the ambient that is registering in the exposure should be underexposed by at least 2 stops for the flash to freeze motion. If the flash exposure is underexposed, you also will get ghosting. If the subject is in front of a brighter background, you will get ghosting. In the previous thread I linked, you can find out how to figure shutter drag.</p>

<p>Marc's method works for figuring shutter drag (attached to focal length) but I don't figure shutter drag that way. I just figure the ambient at least 2 stops below the flash EV and adjust to suit. This could mean I am using shutter speeds of 1/200th down to 1/15, 1/8th, regardless of focal length, and still getting sharp subjects. The amount of background blur will vary, of course.</p>

<p>3. Rear curtain sync will not help ghosting. All it does is fire the flash at the end of your shutter. This and dragging the shutter are two separte concepts. What rear curtain sync does is help you create trails of light or motion blur behind the subject when the subject is moving strongly in one direction across the frame. This can help when you are photographing dancing, but realize that most modern dancing is not side to side motion but back and forth motion. If a couple is waltzing, yes, rear curtain sync will be helpful, or whirling in a circle dance, but not for most modern dancing.</p>

<p>4. If you bounce your flash, and want to shoot something far away, it is possible if you maximize your bounce angle, and even then, you may be firing your flash at or near the full output, repeatedly. You can up the ISO or widen your aperture to help this, but getting an external pack will help a lot. Even so, you have to be careful about abusing your flash. This is why the flash gets real hot. The modern flashes have therml cut off switches. You have to let your flash rest. Another thing is to have two flashes and trade off. I have ruined many a flash--just did last Saturday. The battery pack does not help this--in fact, it makes it worse, because it allows you to fire off flashes quicker.</p>

<p>5. I believe Nikon aperture priority sets 1/60th shutter no matter what. I guess the program for rear curtain sync allows another shutter speed. This is OK if it happens to work well in your environment but manual camera mode is the best because you control things, not the camera.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Also--I'd hold off on getting into multiple flashes until you understand single flash better. When you do get into multiple flashes, the easiest is to use the Nikon CLS system (you do have a back up flash, right) and then decide how you want to go. Most people end up getting wireless radio triggers for the bigger range and better consistency.</p>

[frolickingbits]

<p>Nadine is, as usual, right on with her explanation-I used 1/30 as an example, because that is what my exposure typically is in a dim reception hall. The example below is just on the edge of getting ghosting. 1/8 of a second, f4.5, ISO 200. The only other light in this room, which was a theater, was a few dim overheads. You can see the camera shake in the background, but since I underexposed by about 1.5-2 stops for the ambient light, the camera shake is not evident in the subject, who is lit primarily by the flash. The flash in this shot was a Quantum Q-Flash on a bracket above the camera-a regular speedlight with a bounce card would give a comparable effect.<br>

In terms of what equipment to buy next-I would highly suggest a battery pack. I use rechargeables in the flash I use on my second camera, and the recycle time can be a major problem. I would also suggest a more powerful flash, which will give you more power to spare for bouncing your flash. At this point, I would advise against a second flash or studio lights. A single flash on camera can do some great things when used properly, and a single flash off camera can create some really great light. Do some reading at www.strobist.com and on this forum to learn how to get the most out of one flash, and once you feel you have that mastered, consider adding a second light.</p><div></div>

[frolickingbits]

<p>I also wanted to give a hearty amen to Craig's post. It doesn't matter if your camera can go to ISO 20,000, just like it doesn't matter that you can shoot at ISO 50 outdoors at noon-bad light is still bad light, regardless of the quantity, and flash is a tool to help provide great quality light, as well as the required quantity.</p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>The d80 is simply not the weapon of choice for wedding photographers. It has a CCD sensor which generates higher noise levels than CMOS sensors found in better cameras. So, you're kind of dealing with that limitation in these shooting situations because they clearly require not only a wider aperture lens, but cleaner performance at higher ISOs than 800. Upgrading your camera to a CMOS sensor like the D300 or the full frame D700 would allow you to push your ISO higher and keep a respectable shutter speed with minimal noise at higher ISO levels like 1600 or 2000 (assuming you're serious about shooting these wedding events). This, in conjunction with judicious and proper use of flash will help greatly.</p>

<p>Remember, flash will only do you some good if the subjects are near you, within 20 or 30 feet. Beyond that, you're shooting in available light, unless you augment the setting with more light. Not always possible in churches. Image stabilization will also help greatly with the longer shutter speeds.</p>