EOS 7D - Have Canon excelled themselves?

[15sunrises]

<p>My goodness, just after I got used to my 40D. I'm wondering what the news will be regarding compatibility with 3rd party EF-S lenses...</p>

[15sunrises]

<p>WOW, people seem to have not mentioned this in the thread, and it's something that I've been wanting forever:</p>

<p>Exposure compensation: +/- 5EV</p>

<p>Finally going beyond the 2 stops which I usually find problematic in night scenes... Can anybody give me some tips on starting up some kind of sponsorship website?</p>

 

[paul_f3]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm glad that the "too many megapixels" Luddites aren't in charge of product management at Canon! It seems to me that YOU are missing the point. At low ISOs, you get more resolution with equal (effectively invisible) noise. At high ISOs, you get EQUAL (that's right EQUAL) noise at <em>comparable </em> magnification. So, if you don't want to see the noise, either <em>don't crop so much </em> or <em>use more light</em> ! In other words, the new cameras let you have your cake and eat it too.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Very interesting! </p>

<p>On August 19, when <a href="../digital-camera-forum/00UFrU">many of us <em>praised</em> </a> Canon's decision to value engineering over marketing and <em>reduce</em> the MP on the G11, we were not labeled "Luddites".</p>

<p>But now, when we operate on the premise that experience will re-affirm the dictum that there will be no free lunch (as historical real world experience has re-affirmed repeatedly), we are not only labeled "too many pixel Luddites", but we are told that the photos prove "you can have your cake and eat it too."</p>

<p>But when one actually reads the <a href="http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10042-10239">comments</a> of the thorough and observant Rob Galbraith, one of the initial testers who (with reservations) <em>praises</em> the 7D for apparently (in initial tests) doing a good job at noise control <em>in spite of</em> having so many minuscule pixels, his following conclusion stands out:</p>

<p>"At all ISO increments, other than the very lowest ones, pictures can take on a slightly harsh appearance not present in larger-pixel cameras in Canon's lineup, such as the EOS-1D Mark III, or Nikon's D3 and D700.<br /> <br /> "Correcting for digital dandruff requires image detail to be softened, sometimes considerably, while the slight harshness is simply a trait to be lived with. This means that overall, 7D image quality is shaping up to be very good. If weighted against how minuscule its sensor's pixels are, image quality is astounding. Put in charge of the 7D's development, however, we'd have chosen something like a 12MP sensor with better high ISO performance and richer low ISO files."</p>

<p>(So does that put Mr. Galbraith in the "Luddite" camp with the rest of us admirers of the "Luddite" D700?)</p>

<p> </p>

[authoritee]

<p>About the 3rd party lens compatibility and the 7D:<br /> <em>The EOS 7D has a standard metal EF / EF-S lens mount which means that it supports all Canon EF and EF-S lenses plus compatible third party lenses.</em><br>

<em></em><br /> Found at: <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos7d/page6.asp">http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos7d/page6.asp</a></p>

<p>Erwin Marlin.</p>

[zml]

<blockquote>

<p>...Luddite...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You know, anyone who calls noise <em>digital dandruff </em>certainly qualifies...</p>

[arie_vandervelden1]

<p>Some observations.</p>

<p>1) megapixels schmegapixels. Who cares? 18 mpix vs 15 mpix is something like 10% more pixels in each direction. IMO this is the <em>least </em> interesting part of this camera.</p>

<p>2) www.imaging-resource.com reports clean 20"x30" prints for low-iso images, 1600 iso up to 13"x19", 3200 iso up to 11"x14". This is better than any APSC sensor so far. Canon has pushed sensor technology - this is good, this is exciting. Some testers say that image quality is comparable to 5D2 up to 1600 iso at which point the 5D2 blows away the 7D. This is remarkable - we're comparing the 7D to a full-frame camera</p>

<p>3) Bigger pentaprism. Wireless flash control. High-falutin' AF. Weather sealing. Top-notch video. Wow! Canon is listening. I think these things cover most items on people's wishlists. Why all the whining?</p>

<p>4) Canadian pricing $2100 CAD at www.vistek.ca</p>

<p>5) To those who think APSC is just a stop-gap in technology evolution and you shouldn't buy EF-S lenses: emm, NOT! We now have APSC cameras that span interests from snapshooter (1000D) to prosumer to pro-on-a-budget. Much wider range than FF.</p>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>Yes, Canon have "excelled themselves," and from almost all accounts the 7D should be an outstanding camera.</p>

<p>This is what competition does: Nikon's D300 prodded Canon to produce the 7D (but with 50% more pixels) and Nikon's 105VR prodded Canon to produce the 100 macro IS, just as Canon's full-frame 1Ds prodded Nikon to produce the full-frame D3 (5 years later) and Canon's 24 and 45 T/S lenses prodded Nikon to introduce us-too's (17 years later).</p>

<p>It's been a nice back-and-forth between the two companies, with consumers the winners; now we'll see how Sony shakes things up!</p>

[ken schwarz]

<blockquote>

<p>"Correcting for digital dandruff requires image detail to be softened, sometimes considerably, while the slight harshness is simply a trait to be lived with. This means that overall, 7D image quality is shaping up to be very good. If weighted against how minuscule its sensor's pixels are, image quality is astounding. Put in charge of the 7D's development, however, we'd have chosen something like a 12MP sensor with better high ISO performance and richer low ISO files."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is a pre-production camera and may also be a beta version of DPP, so I'd hold judgment for now. Noise reduction technology (in and off camera) is where the action is. Since I'm locked into the Canon line, I certainly hope that they effectively address it. I believe the strategy is the right one, but they've got to execute it well.</p>

[ken schwarz]

<blockquote>

 

<p>WOW, people seem to have not mentioned this in the thread, and it's something that I've been wanting forever:<br>

Exposure compensation: +/- 5EV<br>

Finally going beyond the 2 stops which I usually find problematic in night scenes... Can anybody give me some tips on starting up some kind of sponsorship website?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Yeah, I got excited about this, too. To the best of my knowledge, +/- 5EV is only found on the 1D-series cameras. I find +/- 3EV too restricting in many situations.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, it looks like the spec is in error. The displays on both the top and back of the camera as well as the one in the viewfinder all show +/- 3EV, just like all the other non-1D series cameras.</p>

 

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

[Marc453]

<p>Lots of speculation. I will wait to use the camera then judge.</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>I agree Paul, and its evedent in the images.</p>

<p>This is exactly what we were told when the 50D came out and look.....SPLAT! I think this is really a 60D, named the 7D to remove that tarneshed name. If they had named this the 60D, no one would be expecting an improvement in IQ after the 50D bomb. This is what the 50D should have been all along. IMO, there will be no 60D. I think Canon will go:<br>

<strong>IMO, there will be no 60D. I think Canon will use: <br />1D & 1Ds Series - To compete with the Nikon D3 & D3x<br />5-Series - Compete with the D700(although an odd match up, but still....)<br />7-Series - Compete with the D300 on a more even level....price and features<br />Rebel Line - Compete with D90 and so on</strong><br>

<br />Which is real good marketing strategy. Look at this thing, it screams 60D with a real nice upgrade in AF/metering and eveyone is expecting a major break through in noise levels cause its the 7D.</p>

<p>Lets keep in mind, the images we are seeing, have had NR to a level we dont know. So until someone gets their hands on one and takes real test images without NR to see what really comes off that sensor, we dont have a clue and may be getting way ahead of ourselves in regards to IQ improvement. I myself think its shaping up to be one hell of an upgrade to the 50D...and rightfully so, but wait with bated breath in IQ.<br>

Think of it this way, those who wanted a 50D to use around the house for family stuff and more advanced hobby use(which is what its for) would have been mostly happy, but now they can drop a little more and get twice a camera to that now for a reasonable $1600. I paid $1600 for a 40D kit the month it came out at bestbuy cause they didnt have a body only box and now look at the option. I would have jerked their arm off for the 7D at $1600 for the body only compared to the 40D/50D.</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>If you need more than +/-3 EV, just use manual and you can get 10 stops +/- over 0 EV if you want. Just roll the aperture from f1.0-f22 or shutter speed from bulb to 1/8000, or ISO from 50-6400. </p>

<p>If you are in a situation where you need more than +/-3 EC, then you are doing something creative and should be shooting manual for that anyway.<br>

Using say Av mode, I have never ran into anything that throws the meter that far off to need more than +/- 3 EV. Usually, its doing something very odd and you would be better off in manual anyway. <br>

I guess it doesnt hurt to have more, but I cant see this as being a let down in the camera by any stretch.</p>

[oofoto]

<p>There will be a 60D. It won't have the weather sealing and advanced AF or the wireless flash or 100% viewfinder.<br>

We'll 7D II, III etc same as the 5D.<br>

We'll see the 3D at some future point.<br>

There will always be something better round the corner</p>

[rainbowphotography]

<p>I am not too exciting about this new 7D after Sony just release its full frame 24.6MP Alpha 850 with an only 300 USD more than price tag.</p>

[danielleetaylor]

<p><em>On August 19, when <a rel="nofollow" href="../digital-camera-forum/00UFrU">many of us <em>praised</em> </a> Canon's decision to value engineering over marketing and <em>reduce</em> the MP on the G11, we were not labeled "Luddites".</em></p>

<p>The G11 has a much, much smaller sensor. So the optimum pixel density for a given level of technology is going to be much less.</p>

<p><em>But when one actually reads the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10042-10239" target="_blank">comments</a> of the thorough and observant Rob Galbraith, </em></p>

<p>Stop reading comments and look at the samples. The camera is amazing.</p>

<p><em>At all ISO increments, other than the very lowest ones, pictures can take on a slightly harsh appearance not present in larger-pixel cameras in Canon's lineup, such as the EOS-1D Mark III, or Nikon's D3 and D700.</em></p>

<p>Until somebody defines "harsh" it's impossible to even respond. I see nothing "harsh" in the samples I've seen. Maybe his settings were off? Maybe his pre-production unit or software had an issue? I can't even guess because I don't know what "harsh" is. Look at the Canon supplied portrait sample: does that look "harsh"? To me it looks like the equal of any medium format portrait I've ever seen. The color and tonality are amazing, not "harsh", and every pore of her skin is rendered. (Maybe that's harsh?) Looks like it would print beautifully right up to 20x30 inches or more.</p>

<p><em>(So does that put Mr. Galbraith in the "Luddite" camp with the rest of us admirers of the "Luddite" D700?)</em></p>

<p>I'll say it again: based on initial samples, the 7D produces superior images at low to mid ISO than the D700. It surprised me how close this thing came to the 5D2 at ISO 100. Go look.</p>

[ken schwarz]

<blockquote>

<p>If you need more than +/-3 EV, just use manual and you can get 10 stops +/- over 0 EV if you want. Just roll the aperture from f1.0-f22 or shutter speed from bulb to 1/8000, or ISO from 50-6400.<br /> If you are in a situation where you need more than +/-3 EC, then you are doing something creative and should be shooting manual for that anyway.<br /> Using say Av mode, I have never ran into anything that throws the meter that far off to need more than +/- 3 EV. Usually, its doing something very odd and you would be better off in manual anyway. <br /> I guess it doesnt hurt to have more, but I cant see this as being a let down in the camera by any stretch.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>NOW I remember why I find it restricting...because it's +/- 2 (not 3) stops. (My bad, sorry.) I've run into the 2 stop limit and wished for 1 or 2 more...but I'll accept your explanation that it's because I am too creative.</p>

<p>In any event, the 7D has +/- 3 stops, which is an improvement. Wow.</p>

 

[michael j hoffman]

<p>I'm sure its a fantastic camera! </p>

<p>But, after years of having to upgrade and have the absolute best, I recently "upgraded" my 10D with two Rebel XSis and the two kit lenses (18-55 IS, 55-250 IS); I also have the 28/1.8 USM for low light work, the Tokina AT-X Pro 11-16/2.8 for very wide angles, and a couple of flash units. After searching in vain for the perfect combination of features and cost-benefit analyses, I'm as happy as I've ever been in this hobby, and I'm thinking of selling off all my other Leica and Canon film and digital gear, and maybe using that money to take a vacation.</p>

<p>Michael J Hoffman</p>

[thomas_hardy1]

<p>

 

 

<p>I think they should have went full frame with this one. 18 mp is too much for a APS-C sensor and they need a lesser full frame model 1 down from the 5DII.</p>

 

 

 

I was hoping that it would be an "affordable" full frame also. Although I'm assuming the high ISO performance will be stellar.

 

</p>

[stephen_asprey2]

<p>I think, in the next 2-3 years, the elephant in the room will be Sony. We have to be careful not of forget that it's the lens range that is the key to high end sales. Once you can resolve nice images at 1600 or 3200, you don't need much more unless you are looking for awesome AF. Most pros have flash units anyway. A lot of these guys have made the switch to Nikon already. Canon is also definitely playing catch up in some areas. But really, who gives a rats. They are both superb ranges of cameras. I've made the switch once already and I'd do it again if necessary. Now if the 7D was FX, I would buy one instead of a D700. Why? Fast prime lenses. But that's me. My loyalty only can go so far. And with the ease of trading in or selling on eBay, getting rid of decent lenses is not too hard.</p>

<p>It would have been more logical if the 5D2 had the pro body of the 7D. It would be what the D700 is to the D3. Maybe that's to come. It just doesn't make sense to me to only put a DX sensor in the 7D. It makes the 5D2 a D90 with an FX sensor. Right now the 7D is the perfect pap camera with its extra dx reach. What about a battery pack?<br>

If you are a pro or high end amateur doing landscapes or portraits, you are probably at FX already and for the outdoors types, the 5D2 is not cutting it, durability wise. Right now, the sports pros are screaming for the 1D replacement. Perhaps Canon is going after the level one below full pro for profits, not image. If they are, then they are arrogant as more and more 1D guys move across to Nikon or Sony. Lack of lenses, accessories and immature firmware is the only thing lacking with Sony. The body is there already. I know for a fact that Sony are the ones that Nikon are worried about. Canon and Nikon know each other so well and as so many technicians have worked with one or the other, there are few secrets not shared in the Pachinko bars. Sony is another matter.</p>

[timbowles]

<p>Can't wait to see the 5DMK3. Hopefully the 7D is a stepping stone to mastering the 5D line without making it even more expensive. It was certainly needed to restore some confidence in what they're doing, as far as I'm concerned.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>Right now, the sports pros are screaming for the 1D replacement.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>They are? Where did you get this from? I work alongside a lot of sports pros and not one of them has brought it up.</p>

[danielleetaylor]

<p><em>If you are a pro or high end amateur doing landscapes or portraits, you are probably at FX already and for the outdoors types, the 5D2 is not cutting it, durability wise.</em></p>

<p>Gee, if the 5D2 is not cutting it, I wonder how all those outdoor photographers managed for decades before magnesium bodies and weather seals?</p>

<p>For that matter, how have my xxD bodies managed between all the hot and dusty desert days, frozen winter nights, and ocean salt water splashes?</p>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>Daniel, I suppose if you shoot landscapes and your brand doesn't offer a 21-mp camera for under $8000 then you want to believe those Internet myths about other brands' less-expensive 21-mp cameras being fragile.</p>

<p>I regularly beat the snot out of my 5D2 in a variety of awful conditions, and it has never complained once, regardless of what those who don't own one may claim. Simply an amazing camera, at any price.</p>

[l_t6]

<p>@Tim Bowles, that's my thought too. 7D is the path, and then some, that 5D Mk III will likely follow. As a 5D MkI user... I'm happy with it for what I use it for. It is all relative.</p>

 

[yakim_peled1]

<blockquote>

<p>IMO, there will be no 60D.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>IMO, there will be a 60D.</p>

<ol>

<li>Because of the price difference.</li>

<li>Because of marketing. The 7D is a single digit camera.</li>

</ol>

<p>Happy shooting,<br>

Yakim.</p>