K-7 and the dreaded green line

[laur1]

<p>Interesting issue. Fortunately, either my K7 is not affected or my shooting settings are not such as to make this problem easily visible - I didn't use LV or video much so far and I rarely shoot above ISO 100. I'll keep an eye for it in my future shots.</p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>On the surface of it, seems like Justin is right and this appears to be a comparatively mild bug that will probably be ironed out. This camera does offer more even than the K20D. And the price remains the same, which is remarkable! The K20D was also a $1,300 camera. But the IQ factor of the K7 is not any substantial degree of advancement, from what I have seen, nor could that be expected. The metering, however, appears to be more accurate, AF and fps shooting speed improved, as well as the other improvements Justin has brought up. That all this is designed into a more compact body is amazing.</p>

<p>I think a good part of the appearance of such bugs is this business of generating a new replacement model every 18 months or so. We went through something like that, though not that extreme, with AF film models back when. In time, there was only so much development that could be advanced, then about the mid 1990's this slowed greatly and model runs were much longer. With longer model runs, more time can be allowed to develop the next model, testing and ironing out bugs ahead of production. More time can also be taken setting up production and implementing better quality control.</p>

<p>The mp race is topping out, as is the feature race. It seems that we are likely to see a similar slowdown with the DSLR market. These companies have become too accustomed to this rapid new-model sales bonanza as digital technology has enjoyed rapid advancement. But this cannot go on forever. Already we are seeing that people already having such an advanced camera like the K10D and certainly the K20D, many are not jumping with credit card in hand with eager enthusiasm to buy a new K7. It does indeed offer these improvements and new features. Some of those new features are not of special interest to many, and the K20D remains a great camera with great control features, and very well built, that produces a very high level of image quality.</p>

<p>I should have been a waiter because I tend to wait. I like the design concept behind the K7- a very advanced, superbly-built body with great new features in a compact form! I like the video part too. can see where one could be in my future. The K7, as Justin says, is very new. I expect it will pan out to be an exceptionally fine and unique offering.</p>

[scott_fraser4]

<p>Just a quick question: I looked at a couple of posts on that big thread and saw some mention of it affecting the high resolution jpeg but not the smaller versions. So the question I have is whether it affects RAW capture or not?<br>

If yes it really is a sensor problem, if not it is a jpeg problem. But to be fair it is unlikely to be a jpeg engine problem. I bought a phone which had a similar problem with the built in camera, but replaced it no problem.<br>

But it doesn't seem to be a major problem, and although I would like a K-7 I'll wait with my k20d for a while...</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>That is a good question, I have a little issue, my main PC (desktop) needs a power supply, it runs for about 20 minutes and turns off. Instead of spending $50 on a power supply, I decided to order a new MOBO, CPU, and ram (and of course a power supply)...upgrading my aging machine for another 4 years or so.</p>

<p>I will check as soon as I can on the images I shot already, and I will make sure to note on future shots.</p>

<p>I only shoot RAW, never JPEG, but Javier shoots only JPEG never RAW. So I do wonder if this is a JPEG issue alone.</p>

<p>The other thing is, the line that I have seen is about 1 pixel wide, meaning that you would probably only notice it on full size JPEGs at 100% magnification. Further meaning those that don't print all that big might never notice it. I see it largely being a problem for mission critical work where any flaw is going to standout like a sore thumb.</p>

<p> </p>

[wayne_campbell]

<p>A whole lot of time and verbiage and confusion could have been saved if you guys realized that the Green Line is in Boston.</p>

<p>http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/</p>

<p> </p>

[joe ogiba]

<p>I hope a firmware update would fix the problem because it is not a problem for me since I shoot more HD video than stills and I can't see it at less than 100% full 4672x3104 jpeg.<br>

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/jogiba/my%20photos/IMGP0189-2.jpg<br>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Pentax are not going to admit there is a problem because they're Japanese. Read a book about Japanese culture (I keep meaning to look for one on Japanese <em>business</em> culture) and you'll see that a company simply cannot admit that they've produced a faulty product; their honour is at stake and they just won't do it. At some point (hopefully soon) they will release a new firmware that will say something like "improved image creation algorithm" which will fix the issue. There will be no mention of green lines or overheated sensors.</p>

<p>This is a fact of life when buying Japanese technology and is difficult for us Westerners to understand.</p>

 

[michael_kuhne]

<p>Mis, you have a point regarding the difficulty Japanese may have in admitting error. I was certainly absolving any balme when I noted how the rapid change in models necessitates a product rush to market, almost guaranteeing some fault to need correcting.</p>

<p>Now how can we get them to reinstate the incredible loss of their fine FA 35mm f/2, FA 50mm f/1.7, and FA 50mm f/1.4 fast primes offered at reasonable prices? These would mirror what Canikon offer, but are better lenses! Maybe the current absence could be seen as a temporary measure for some departmental reorganization to adjust product output to customer demand, and to improve production efficiency...??</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Michael, I'm sure the official party line is that the FA 35mm f/2 has been replaced by the superior DA 35 Ltd, while the FA 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.7 have been replaced by the (you guessed it) superior DA* 50mm f/1.4. The fact that the FA lenses weren't actually <em>replaced</em> is irrelevant.</p>

[r.t. dowling]

<p>Mis, I think you hit the nail on the head.</p>

<p>"Superior" is debatable, but who are we to argue with Pentax? :-\</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Hi folks.<br>

Turns out that Canon and Nikon (sony) have also had a similar problem, though unlike Pentax they headed the problem off at the pass...It seems like the dreaded green line is caused by fusing the sensor together, basically welding two of them together. If this is the case, this is good news because that is the same technology that is used to make a full frame sensor at a reasonable cost. Now again, this is speculation and info gathered through PF, DPR, PF in EU, and few more. It makes sense in way. Now I don't know how accurate this is or maybe it is just wishful thinking. Thoughts?</p>

<p> </p>

[r.t. dowling]

<p>If it's a hardware problem such as that, I wonder how they would fix it with only a software patch? I suppose they could have the imaging engine grab a line of pixels from either side of the green line, and then use that to interpolate what the line occupied by the green line should actually look like. I'm not explaining this very well, but it would be the same sort of thing they do with hot pixels, I guess.</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Javier, can you post some links to the info about the sensor being fused? I thought this had been refuted. Still, it should be easier to fix in firmware if this is the issue.</p>

[joe ogiba]

<p>From the Canon 5D MKII manual:<br /> <img src="http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/jogiba/number%204/b2f0f33b.jpg" alt="" width="601" height="634" /><br>

<img src="http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/jogiba/number%204/5c27499b.jpg" alt="" width="601" height="414" /></p>

[jgredline]

<p>Mis,<br>

When I get to work tomorrow I will look through my surfing history and get those links for you.<br>

As I said, it was all forum talk, but still interesting.</p>

[laur1]

<p>@R.T. - I was thinking about a software solution along the same line as you - I'm pretty sure a firmware upgrade will take care of this.</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Hi folks,<br /> I do not know what to make of this. I just got off the phone with the people over at CHRISCAM the new repair station for Pentax. When I called Pentax imaging USA, at first they did not want to give me the phone number, but reluctantly they did.<br /> <br /> Here are their details.<br /> CRIS CAM<br /> Attn Pentax service dept<br /> 250 n. 54th st<br /> Chandler AZ. 85226<br /> 480) 940-1103<br /> <br /> The girl I spoke with was very nice over at cris cam http://criscam.com/newsite/index.php What bothered me, is that this is a general all brand repair station and they have yet to service any K-7's according to what I was told on the phone today..They have never heard of the green line syndrome but would be happy to take a look....i was going to send in my K-7 today, but now I am wondering if I should. Do I really want to be an experiment? I was also told I have nothing to loose since I have a three year warranty...Anyway, I guess I will send it in and see what happens..</p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>So now Pentax is farming out their repair work? Previously, Pentax USA have always maintained their own repair and maintenance department. About a year ago, I sent in an FA 28-70mm f/4 with I think a separation issue, and Pentax did the work. This situation now does not look too good to me.</p>

[jacques c pelletier]

<p>So, after much reading on both Photo.Net (this thread) and Pentax Forum, this seems a likely issue mainly with "Live View" shooting, or am I completely wrong again?<br>

I am (was ?) considering buying the K7 within the next couple months or so but that piece of news sure had me think it over twice. As someone said on this thread, better wait a while and see what happens with this "fix".<br>

It would be rather interesting to find out how many people have this problem and also if that is a particular issue with a specific "batch" of K7's only, like it often happens in all brands. Remember that big nasty news about the Canon (whatever the model was, but it was high end) ?<br>

Personally, I live quite far from any big city which would have a "head office" to deal with, in Canada. Likelyhood to be in Toronto and that does not sound very good at all. I'll stay away from the K7 until I know this green line issue has been completely resolved. I was going to give my K10D to my son and keep the K20D with the K7 but ... it's not going to happen any time soon.<br>

Is there any way this can be "tested" at the store upon shopping for the K7?<br>

Cheers.<br>

JP</p>

[14mm 2.8l]

<p>Concerning the welding of the Samsung sensor coincidentally being the cause where the green lines show up was refuted by Falk Lumo. I think he found them to specifically exist: two at 128k and one at 256k or something like that. He's apparently a software guru and thats my recollection of it. Search his posts or blog for more info. Falk was one of the lucky few who were Pentax' K-7 beta tester and he coincidentally had a vertical green line syndrome K-7 delivered to him for beta testing with beta sensor installed. Pentax Europe got this camera back after his beta test so they have an afflicted sample inhand.</p>

<p>Its disappointing CRIS has not heard of the green lines, and yet the green line is well documented in pentax forums around the globe with images for others to see. It affects K-7 from various serial numbers, it affects K-7 that never had live view or video engaged. It affects raw and jpg captures. It tends to be more temperture sensitive but others have had it occur well within the temp specs. I guess K-7 records the camera's temp on your image's metadata. You do have to look for the green lines, then once you see them they or it jumps out at you. All the K-7 being returned or exchanged from unhappy buyers during the return period, I wonder where those end up?</p>

<p>Questions I also wonder about are:</p>

<p>will the sensor lines get worse over time?</p>

<p><br />will pentax officially acknowledge its existence?</p>

<p><br />will pentax be able to fix it with firmware?</p>

<p><br />I guess it has to do with how incredibly well sealed the K-7 is. Where's that heat generated by the K-7 sensor suppose to go? If water can't get in, then heat cannot escape either.</p>

<p><br />Personally I'd wait to send a defective K-7 in for service until pentax figures out whats wrong with K-7 and are willing to publically own their boo~boo.</p>

<p><br />Anyways, I've examined our images from K20D for any hint of where one or all three Vertical Green Lines exist on K-7 's images. Nothing found, no problem with our K20D images. And its equally well sealed. Maybe including HD Video capture spec in a Dslr thesedays isn't really "free".</p>

<p>Here's one of Falk, threads. You can search thru his 2,591 posts there to see alot of great pentax info and insight, opinions, theories and such:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/70532-hoya-press-release-about-european-operations.html">http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/70532-hoya-press-release-about-european-operations.html</a></p>

[jgredline]

<p>I am going to call again tomorrow and demand they exchange my K-7 for a known good unit. Why should I have to be with out it for 2-3 weeks with no guarantee of it even getting fixed? The thought of sending my Ferrari to Pep boys to get fixed is bothering me.</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Javier, having read way too much about this problem, my understanding is the same as yours: Those who don't have a problem with the Green Line simply haven't looked for it. Many people who were reporting no line eventually came back and said "actually, after shooting for an hour outside, I started getting the Green Line".</p>

<p>People from all over the World are reporting it, so I don't think it's a batch problem. Some people have returned a number of cameras for new units and all had the Green Line. I've come to the conclusion that the Green Line is a feature of the camera. Pentax will not admit to a problem, but will eventually release a firmware upgrade that will fix it. They have no option but to do this. If they don't, current owners will return their cameras for a refund and late adopters like myself will never buy one. Pentax cannot afford not to sell all the units they've built, and unless they update the firmware, this is a likely outcome.</p>

<p>Javier, my suggestion to you is to hang on to your K-7 and wait for the firmware update. Your other option is to return it for a refund (if that's possible). I doubt your Green Line will get fixed by CRIS, so why go to all the trouble of sending them the camera?</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Mis,<br>

You are correct. There is no fix yet. I spoke with a higher up at Pentax imaging named John and said they are working on a firmware fix to fix this problem. It is happening to all the units even with out live view or movie making. It does not show up in low use shooting, like the first 20 or so snaps, but the people who are complaining the most are the sports shooters. I set my K-7 in burst mode and just let it rip and by about the 3rd set of 30 images total, that green line was there. So I decided to hold on to it..</p>

<p>What is more concerning to me was that when I asked why they closed down the Pentax service center, the supervisor said, he did not know. It came out of Hoya / Pentax / Japan and they there where all as surprised as the next guy. When I told him, I was not comfortable sending my Porsche Turbo to Sears auto center for a rebuild, he started to laugh and said...Those techs where trained by Pentax....I am like...Yea sure buddy....What Chis should have done was hire those laid of people and relocated them or at least offered the option.</p>

<p>In either case, I am putting the lamborghini back in the Garage (my closet) until the firmware update is out. Until then, I have really been enjoying my D700 and this whole episode with Pentax has me considering leaving Pentax all together. I just got so much Pentax glass that it will be hard to let go of....</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Javier, don't forget to offer those Pentax lenses to your friends before you leave ;-)</p>

<p>I only joke because I know you won't leave us :-p</p>

[michael_kuhne]

<p>Javier, I love your analogy to Pep Boys or Sears! Especially Pep Boys, because our Sears actually does have some very experienced mechanics. But for some problems, the dealer who only works on their products, have the greatest expertise. Don't be surprised, though, to see more of this outsourcing of their "service department" from other brands too. It may eventually be outsourced to India! As with everything now, it's all about cheaper labor with fewer benefits for working people, and then American working people being replaced altogether by cheap foreign labor. Of course, quality and personalized service takes a plunge in the process.</p>

<p>The Nikon D700 is a very fine camera, as users report, but the advantage for tele uses is still for the aps size cameras. I have been very pleased with performance and image quality from my K20D, as well as that from my compact K200D. Both of course also have the excellent construction with weather sealing and advanced features, and each meets particular needs very well. So I am certainly in no hurry regarding the K7. I am concerned a bit about the mid-class model K200D having a new replacement. I hope that happens. It seems just having the KM/2000 and the K7 leaves a hole in the middle.</p>

<p>I do believe, as Mis has said, that Pentax will iron out this bug. The K7 is inherently a more complex machine than the K20D, so a bug or two really is not a surprise.</p>