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Potential Future Pentaxian With Many Questions


trevor_newman1

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<p>First off thank you in advance for reading this. I currently have a Nikon D90 with 18-105 and a 50mm 1.8. I really like the camera and the images I get from it but I am thinking of selling it and purchasing a K20D and building up a small system. <br>

Some background: I started shooting with a Nikon FM10, 50mm1.8 AF and a cheap manual kit zoom I was given. Before I went into digital I worked in a camera shop. I handled both the D90 and the K20D and personally I felt like that K20D was the perfect camera in my hands. It felt solid and everything just fell right into place I ended up going with the D90 as I already had a couple nikon lenses and a nikon film camera. I love the nikon and it does suit me very well to a point...however i have one huge problem with the nikon lens range...its cost and its lack of fixed aperture zooms and quality primes. <br>

I simply cannot afford the Nikon system....even used equipment. I have also found that I really don't care for zooms all the much, especially variable aperture ones. I am mainly a walk around photographer and not too gear obsessed. I like high quality pictures that don't require too much post proccessing. I am not a pro by any means but I like a camera that is well built and easy to handle. I tend to photograph anything that piques my interest and I do occasionally shoot events. I have noticed that I rarely shoot on the telephoto end of the lens spectrum and I tend to keep my ISO from 200-1200...rarely much higher. Generally I enjoy shooting with wide angle zooms and my 50 1.8...though I would like an 85 (ore thereabouts) at some point. <br>

One of the things that interests me most about the K20D and the Pentax system in general is how compact it is while feeling extremely solid. I tend to walk around with my camera for hours on end. I also like the in body image stabilization. I am also interested in acquiring a 645 sometime down the line and I believe I can use those lenses with an adapter.<br>

My questions are as follows. I know the K20D and D90 have very different noise profiles. I never use more than 1600 and I rarely blow up my prints larger than 8x10. Occasionally, I will go larger. I like a clean image and grainy noise is acceptable...I am not as big of a fan of chroma noise. From your experiences is noise an issue at 1600 and below?<br>

I have read that the K20D has a hot pixel problem. Is this just a rumor? Is it true, and if true has it been rectified by Pentax later in the production line? I have looked at a number of K20D image samples and seen numerous hot pixels. Though they are not a deal breaker I am a bit of a nit picker when it comes to hot pixels.<br>

Finally, I have heard a lot of talk about pentax not only being on the brink but also that they are raising their lens prices. The used lens market still looks pretty viable for my budget. <br>

I only bring up the potential pitfalls as I the positives of the pentax system are vast and in my mind it isonly these small factors that potentially hold me back from taking the leap.<br>

Finally I am looking to build a system around the K20D for about $1200. With that I am hoping to acquire a mid range zoom, a short telephoto (no more than 200mm) and a 1.8-1.4 50mm prime. Is this possible? Any recommendations based on all my information are greatly appreciated. Thank you all so much for your time and consideration. I am just about to start paying off my education and money is tight but photography is my release and my passion. Thank you again.</p>

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<p>For $1200, you can do it. If you went with the WR kit lenses, wide to short telephoto and a moderate telephoto, you could pick those up for $200 each. Reminder of the funding for the body. This would provide you with a weather sealed two lens kit that should perform just fine. They have several pretty good 50mm's to choose from, that they've put out over the years. Pretty much can't fail with any of those. Wide variety on pricing; should be able to get something for just about any budget. </p>

<p>I used the K200d and film equipment, so I'm not up on the best technologies, but I have full confidence in my Pentax equipment. It's reasonably durable. I know the all manual lens assemblies will work well for years. </p>

<p>Like, decades.</p>

<p>I do not know how expensive Nikon equipment is because I have never used the stuff. But, the kit you are already using sounds like it might be good. I know sometimes the kit lenses don't inspire a whole lotta machismo, but they're often pretty good to begin with. </p>

<p>I have recently taken to putting a $17 used FAJ kit lens on my K200d, and it pretty much stays on there. I think in one lens review I saw this equipment receive a "3" on a ten point scale. It does what I want it to do. Considering how well that one has worked out, I would encourage you to talk smack and swap spit about the greatness of your kit lens. </p>

<p>Are you sure it's the brand of camera? I love Pentax, but I think any camera owner could have those considerations that you've mentioned. </p><div>00UAF6-163163584.jpg.c762bd3f460b90a292faac83d861cc9d.jpg</div>

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<p>I've collected a bag full of lenses for my K20D. The FA 50mm F/1.4 prime used to be $200 new, now it's $250 just about everywhere. Great lens. I just bought my first used lens, a Pentax "F" 35-70mm F/3.5-4.5 for about $50 and this was a terrific find for me. Fast focusing (seems to be for me, anyway) with great results, and very small, just like the 50mm. With these three pieces of hardware you are at about $950, and I bet you could find a reasonably priced used telephoto if you keep your eye out there. Don't discount the Pentax kit lens. As kit lenses go, the Pentax 18-55 II will run with and out-pace the Nikon and Canon kit lenses all day long.</p>

<p>I've noticed a few hot pixels from time to time, nothing that has caused me any problems. Typically only in broad expanses of a single color. I'm not a big post-processor, but it's easy enough to zoom in and clone a hot spot if one shows up. I don't sweat it, I just treat it like a speck of dust.</p>

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<p>Thank you both for your responses. John, thank you for your extensive answer. Just to clarify a few things. I don't have a problem with variable aperture zooms and I am actually thinking the new 18-55 and 50-200 look like real good starter lenses for my Pentax system. It is just with nikon if you want really nice primes you have to go back to lenses that the D90 can't meter with. I tend to do a lot of manual focusing and I noticed the K20D also has focus adjustment. With the new brite screens it is hard to tell from the screen if something is in focus and the ability to calibrate all my lenses will allow me to put more to in the focus indicator. The problem with price is mainly that Nikon does not offer very many F4 primes or zooms that fit reasonably into my budget while offering top notch image quality. I simply can't afford a 24-70 2.8...plus it is my perception that pentax lenses tend to be smaller and a little bit more manageable. As I said I do a lot of walking with my cameras both on the streets and on the trails. Thank you again and I look forward to others thoughts and input! =)</p>
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<p>For around $1300-$1350, you can get a K20D with the 16-45 and the 55-300. I know that's a little more than you wanted to spend, but that is one hell of a versatile kit, and those two particular lenses are very good. The 16-45 is noticeably sharper than the 18-55 (which is really saying something, because the 18-55 is pretty sharp), and the 55-300 is not only sharper than the 50-200, but it also gives you an extra 100mm at the long end. The 16-45 also has the added advantage of being a constant F4 throughout the entire zoom range, and the extra 2mm at the short end can make a difference when you need to go wide.</p>

<p>If I was shopping for a kit today, that is the one I would get. It really covers the bases. The only thing missing is a macro, which you can add later. :-)</p>

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<p>Trevor, you're not alone. When I was looking to replace my Nikon F80 with a digital SLR, I found that the Pentax system was the one that would allow me to have a nice DSLR body for a reasonable price, and play around with interesting/used/vintage glass that can be found at a good price. I was tired of looking in the used camera stores, and seeing Nikon glass for a premium of hundreds more than Pentax glass. It bugged me that my F80 couldn't meter with older lenses, and there was no way I was going to pay the premium of a D200 just to get metering on bargain lenses...<br>

Just remember that no system is perfect (having used Nikon, Pentax and Canon thanks to work, friends and my own cameras.) I think the Pentax system satisfies what I want from an SLR system -- high quality images, good ergonomics, decades of cameras, lenses and accessories to play with. Every time I think that a new Pentax Limited lens is expensive, I just glance at the prices of Canon L glass or a pro Nikon lens, and I feel better!</p>

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<p>I have a growing collection of manual focus fixed focal length Super-Takumar lenses that I use with my Pentax K10D. They offer excellent quality for the money. The the longer ones can be a bit heavy though (all metal construction). I also have the FA 50mm f/1.4 which I picked up for $200. It costs a little more now. If you like small compact lenses Pentax offers plenty of options to choose from. Limiteds, old screw mounts, and other manual focus K mounts.<br>

I think the new 18-55 and 55-200 WR would make for a nice low weight low cost package. I've had my K10D for a couple of years now. I didn't get the kit lens then but I might just pick up that 18-55 so I would have at least one weather resistant lens.<br>

I have a Nikon D90 that is available to me from work. It is an outstanding camera. I made the recommendations as to what lenses to get with it. We got the Nikkor 18-105, 70-300 and a Tokina 12-24. Going through the process I saw how expensive those Nikkor lenses. I can understand why you're looking for alternatives! That's a tough decision to make between the two systems. </p>

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<p>Hi Trevor, if you stay with Nikon you'll do fine over the long run and if you switch to Pentax you'll also do fine. It is a matter of identifying your short- and long-term requirements and an accompanying budget. And it looks like your head is in the right place.</p>

<p>Pentax is the most interesting DSLR platform. Lots of choices in your shooting range from 40 years ago to current products.</p>

<p>For a low-cost mid-range zoom consider the Pentax DA 16-45, f4 which is optically excellent and affordable. Or the Tamron 17-50mm f.2.8 if you need faster performance--also reasonable in price. I've never used the 50-200 but the size and weight are very reasonable and the images I've seen are very good. As a starting point for zooms that would set you up for a few years. In the Pentax world, since so many lenses are in play, the buying and selling of them constantly is not unusual; some consider it a lot of fun.</p>

<p>A good starter prime would be any f 1.7 or faster Pentax 50mm manual or AF lens, including the old M42 models. The optics are excellent and they handle sweetly on the K20D. Also consider a 28mm and a 35mm--the older f 3.5 ones are considered superior to the f 2.8 ones.</p>

<p>For the long term I would suggest you plan on the Limited and DA* lenses. The Limited lenses are very small and outstanding optically. They are really a distinguishing marker for the Pentax brand and highly satisfying to use.</p>

<p>For your other more critical queries here is my take:</p>

<p>Noise: I mostly shoot between 200-800 ISO and sometimes 1600 if I have to. Noise just hasn't been an issue when I'm using the lens as a photographer (ensuring proper lighting, camera stabilization, and reasonable use) and not a tester for some website. I output prints commonly at 12x18 and things are great. I will run some images through Noiseware if necessary, but 80% of the time Lightroom's noise reduction works fine.</p>

<p>Hot pixels: nope haven't suffered from that. The camera has a pixel mapping function anyway. I use two monitors, one a higher-end IPS and just don't see issues.</p>

<p>Pentax future: this is an old canard that we giggle about here. Who knows about any company these days? Hoya is successful. Pentax competes in a different market niche than Canon and Nikon and Sony and a lot of analysis is too facile to take this into account. It is also out of our control. Finally, the cameras and lenses will still function if the mothership changes or disappears--I'm shooting 4x5 on the side these days--half the cameras out there including mine are antiques.</p>

<p>Yes new lens prices have gone nuts, but I think that applies to all brands. The used market is vital and fun to follow. If you go Pentax you'll be wheeling and dealing within no time.</p>

<p>ME</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses! This really is quite a friendly forum. I think I have made up my mind. I am going to purchase the K20D 18-55 WR and either the 50-200 WR or the 55-300. To round it out I think I will either scope out a used 50 1.4 AFor try to find a used manual focus 50 1.4. Do the old manual focus primes meter on the K20D? If they do that would be quite a treat! Thank you again for your help! Now I have to sell my D90 first...anyone in the market? =)</p>
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<p>Trevor, when I bought my K10 I skipped the kit lens and purchased the DA16-45/4. Absolutely no regrets - nice constant f/4 aperture that serves my purposes nicely. I prefer to use natural light for a majority of my shooting so I added the FA50/1.4 a little while ago and don't know why I waited so long to get it! Can't go wrong with either of these two lenses in my opinion.</p>

<p>I second R.T. Dowling's sentiments. I rarely comment but have found this forum to be very friendly and informative.</p>

<p>Good Luck with your decisions.<br>

Lee</p>

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<p>"Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses! This really is quite a friendly forum. I think I have made up my mind. I am going to purchase the K20D 18-55 WR and either the 50-200 WR or the 55-300. To round it out I think I will either scope out a used 50 1.4 AFor try to find a used manual focus 50 1.4. Do the old manual focus primes meter on the K20D?"<br>

I would get the WR kit lens and the 55-300. The 55-300 is a much better lens than the 50-200. All the manual lenses meter on the K20. The M 50mm f1.7 is a very nice lens and is not expensive. You can also use and meter with M42 screwmount lenses. Just be sure to get the genuine Pentax adapter. I have a Zeiss Jena 35mm f2.4 Flektogon. It's a very good lens and focuses to 7 inches. My K20 has no hot pixel issues and I think you get a 3 year warranty with the K20. I'm not a fanboy...it's just that I can't justify the cost of the Nikon glass. There are a lot of lens reviews here <a href="http://www.pentaxforums.com/">http://www.pentaxforums.com/</a> The Pentax limiteds are pretty exceptional too. I have the 21mm and like it a lot. The big auction site may be the best place to sell the D90 if that is what you decide to do.</p>

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<p>Trevor, I was a Nikon shooter for 20 years before I bought a Pentax DSLR (the K100D). One of the things that lured me to Pentax is the fact that all of their old lenses will meter, even on their low-end, inexpensive bodies. I have a few manual focus Nikon lenses that I'd love to be able to use with a DSLR, but I couldn't afford a D200, which apparently is the "minimum" Nikon DSLR that will meter with those lenses. So I saved a huge amount of money by buying a K100D, and was able to pick up a used Pentax A-50/1.7 that outperforms my Nikkor 50/1.8.</p>

<p>Manual focus Pentax lenses that aren't part of the "A" series require a bit more user interaction to meter, but it's not very difficult. On the K10D, K20D, and K-7, it is quite easy and requires only one or two button presses, if I recall correctly. If you do plan on buying old manual focus lenses, be on the lookout for the ones that have "A" in the name because those can meter the easiest (no extra button presses required) and can be used in the full range of metering modes such as aperture priority, shutter priority, and program auto. The others (K series and M series) will work in either full manual or aperture priority, which is still pretty darn cool. I use aperture priority 95% of the time, so that suits me just fine.</p>

<p>To get up to speed on Pentax lens terminology -- there are many combinations of letters, using almost the entire alphabet -- check out this web site:</p>

<p>http://kmp.bdimitrov.de/technology/lens_terms.html</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Thank you R.T. That link really helped. Yes, not being able to meter with older manual focus lenses but not being able to afford a D300 has really been a stumbling block for me. I am very excited! I will not be able to purchase the K20D for at least a month. I know that the K7 just came out...is pentax planning on ceasing production of the K20D soon or will it soldier on for a little longer? Thanks again!</p>
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<p>I believe, due to the now closeout reduced prices for the K20D, that it is being discontinued. I took advantage of this situation, and it is indeed an exceptionally fine camera. Whether or not there will be a K30D in this size body remains to be seen.</p>

<p>I agree with Les that the DA 55-300 is the way to go. Very good imaging, and a nicely designed and well-made lens, that is compact for its large range. The fast, constant aperture DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 is an exceptionally fine zoom lens, of extremely high quality. It fills the role of the old 80-200mm f/2.8 of 35mm film bodies in a much more compact design. This lens can produce really great imaging. The Pentax DA 12-24mm f/4 is a very fine wide angle zoom.</p>

<p>The still available "FA" 50mm f/1.4 is a very fine prime lens at a modest price. Get one while you can, as it is being replaced by a very expensive model that is really no better. In some ways, Nikon is making better decisions by hanging on to their old but good basic lenses. Another poster recently found a deal on a used model Pentax "F" 50mm f/1.7, quite reasonable, also a very fine AF lens.</p>

<p>There are the renown Pentax Limited series of primes, of both the FA and DA series, which are of elite caliber build quality and optics, with unique compact design aspects. Not cheap, but unique and worth having if you like prmes. You spoke of compact yet solid. The Limiteds are the embodiment of that idea.</p>

<p>As to noise, the Pentax approach has been with the K20D, that less noise reduction is more for preservation of detail in the image. There is then a user control to implement moderate increase of noise reduction as you wish for higher ISO settings, with minimal detail loss. The advantage in preservation of detail from this approach is visible. You can see for yourself in comparisons of JPEG images out of camera between camera models on the Imaging Resource website. On the home page, just click on "Compare sample images" and select any two models for side by side image comparisons. You can click on those images to obtain maximum enlargement.</p>

<p>You will see that a camera's built-in "superior" noise reduction also smooths over or smears detail, even at lower ISO settings!</p>

<p>Also going with that compact-but-solid concept is the new Pentax K7. It is so new, reports are now just starting to trickle in, but its design is a stunner. Priced far lower than a D300, but built even better, it will likely turn out to be the best compact model around. If you are interested, with patience you will probably get a better price yet as time goes on. We have not yet had enough feedback from reports and users to see what bugs, if any, may need to be ironed out in this new model.</p>

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<p>I do keep in mind that all these camera models, D80, D90, D300, K200D, K20D, K7 are fine cameras and produce fine quality images. A good friend shoots with Nikon gear and has for 30 years. But if you are looking towards a D300D or higher caliber body, the Pentax system can offer as much or more, and some fine lenses, at a very good price. </p>
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<p>The "metering with old lenses" is a canard.</p>

<p>Pentax DSLR's can meter with "A" lenses (those which have an "A" on the aperture ring). If the lens is a "K" or "M" type then you have to use stop-down metering (using the green button). Now this would be great except that stop-down metering is notoriously inaccurate. The Canon 1000D meters more accurately with M42 lenses!</p>

<p>That said I have a K20D and I know they go for under $700 now which is a great price for a weather-sealed 14MP body with stabilization.</p>

<p>Another thing is that the D90 with an appropriate lens will AF much faster than the K20D. Well known, Pentax AF is accurate but on the slow side. a D200 would definitely blow away a K20D or K10D on AF. But a used D200 costs more than a new K20D.. a D200 will also AF with the $100 Nikon 50/1.8.</p>

<p>Just some things you have to be aware of.</p>

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<p>The "metering with old lenses" is a canard.</p>

<p>Pentax DSLR's can meter with "A" lenses (those which have an "A" on the aperture ring). If the lens is a "K" or "M" type then you have to use stop-down metering (using the green button). Now this would be great except that stop-down metering is notoriously inaccurate. The Canon 1000D meters more accurately with M42 lenses!</p>

<p>That said I have a K20D and I know they go for under $700 now which is a great price for a weather-sealed 14MP body with stabilization.</p>

<p>Another thing is that the D90 with an appropriate lens will AF much faster than the K20D. Well known, Pentax AF is accurate but on the slow side. a D200 would definitely blow away a K20D or K10D on AF. But a used D200 costs more than a new K20D.. a D200 will also AF with the $100 Nikon 50/1.8.</p>

<p>Just some things you have to be aware of.</p>

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<p>A canard, eh? Saying that, meaning a Nikon D90 with an old MF lens which will not meter at all, is in reality the same as a Pentax DSLR with an old MF lens, other than the "A" series, because of inaccurate metering? That old non-"A" MF lenses on a Pentax body are just as lacking as an old MF lens on the Nikon D90? Nonsense.</p>

<p>I have seen too many fine shots posted here taken with older MF lenses used on various Pentax DSLR bodies, using the camera's metering to determine exposure. Sure there is a departure from the norm, but it is predictable and easily compensated. Does not require much effort to accomplish. Once you know the ropes, it is quick and easy. No comparison at all to the circumstance of a Nikon D90. I'll have to post a few examples.<br />Nikon DSLR models below the D90 won't even AF with most Nikon AF lenses!</p>

<p>I cannot say that Pentax AF is "on the slow side". I regularly shoot indoor college roller hockey, an extremely fast- moving sport, and nail many good shots, using the right lens. The rinks are also not all that brightly lit, to boot. The D90 may be faster yet, but some Pentax lenses as tested by Photozone are reported as having "very fast" AF.</p>

<p>I agree that Pentax should maintain some of their old standard lenses, as Nikon has been doing, instead of abandoning them.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Hello all,<br>

Well I did it. I ordered my first Pentax! A K20D with an 18-55 WR. I am very excited =). I will build up my system over the course of the year. My sister is getting married in a year and by that time I hope to add a 50 1.4 and a 55-300 to my aresnal. I am also looking for an inexpensive but high quality flash to get me through the wedding and through my first year of law school until I start working any recommendations? (af360fgz is a bit pricey at this time and doesn't swivel) I still have a SB600 that I will continue to use with all my nikon film equipment...I don't suppose that will work on a K20D. Thank you all so much for your input and I will keep you all updated on my first steps into the world of Pentax. By the way I was looking at your picture of the week thread and it seems you all include more than one picture! Very cool...incredible photos. I can't wait to contribute!</p>

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<p>Michael,</p>

<p>In my experience the K20D's AF cannot follow even (big slow zoo) birds in flight.</p>

<p>w.r.t. lens compatibility, compare say K20D to D200. Same class of camera (debuted at same price). D200 has compatibility with ALL Nikon lenses (except really really really old non-Ai ones) and can meter with them.</p>

<p>K20D and similar, yes there is green button, but the offset necessary changes with the aperture you set. It's not a fixed +1 or +2 or -1 or -2. IMHO it's inconvenient enough that I just use the green button to "get in the range," then chimp the histogram and adjust.</p>

<p>With an entry-level Nikon body, you have no metering at all, but you do have the histogram. So the green button functionality is not a huge improvement.</p>

<p>I can't understand why even entry-level Pentax AF film bodies like MZ-30 have the metering cam necessary to meter accurately even with ancient Pentax lenses, but the DSLR's do not.</p>

<p>But that said --- I was thinking of shifting to Nikon (D200) from K10D, but instead I went to K20D. Can't beat the value, weather sealing, and in-body IS.</p>

<p>But we must not be blinded by Pentax's "25 million Pentax lenses" claims... because the compatibility is crippled. With Nikon, the entry bodies are completely crippled w.r.t. old lenses, but the midrange to high end bodies have complete compatibility. Which Pentax doesn't have even in its $1200 K-7 body.</p>

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<p>I agree that with most Pentax AF 35mm film bodies, use of the older MF lenses is a breeze. But some of the MZ/ZX lower leval models are completely crippled in not being able to function with a lens needing use of the aperture ring. I believe that includes the MZ-30. </p>

<p>In fact, my Nikon-shooting friend has to make adjustments on his AF film body, the N70, that will take old MF lenses, that I do not have to make on my Pentax bodies to use old MF lenses. All I have to do is snap on the lens and fire away. The camera self-adjusts for center-weighted metering, etc. It is also a mystery to me as well, why a Pentax DSLR cannot operate so simply. But the old lenses are still quite useful to me for digital. I especially like my little 135mm f/3.5 "M" lens. Wide open, exposure is evenly accurate, stopped down into the mid apertures between wide open and f/11, it is always about 1 stop over. So all I do, unless shooting wide open, is hit my exposure comp button for a -1 setting, and then use the green button in Manual mode. The shots come out well. I do not generally need or want to stop this lens down more than about f/9.5 tops, where more compensation would be necessary.</p>

<p>Some of the better Canon EOS 35mm bodies were notorious for underexposure inaccuracy in dimmer lighting. Exact figures were given as to -1 or -1.5 stops or whatever, and at 7 EV, 5 EV, etc. in Pop Photo's testing of that time. Photographers shooting in late afternoon and evening light made it a regular practice to rate their film ISO off-base to compensate. The Pentax PZ-1p was right on the money, and the MZ-S was also highly accurate. But these days, camera testing no longer includes exposure accuracy, nor does lens testing. So whether you are really getting an accurate exposure ,even with a modern lens, is a crap shoot.</p>

<p>Perhaps there has been a trade-off in sacrificing some speed for better accuracy compared to Nikon and Canon. But even so, I have been successful getting birds in flight, and the equally quick or quicker hockey shots. But this does indeed vary with lenses. My Sigma 24-60mm f/2.8 EX DG is a winner for shooting the hockey. Not so successful is my Tokina 28-70mm f/2.6-2.8 Pro II. I also have the impression that SDM does not equate to faster focus than standard lenses. </p>

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<p>A note on hot pixels:</p>

 

<h1><strong>EVERY CAMERA HAS HOT PIXELS!</strong></h1>

<p>It's a fact of life for CCD and CMOS sensors, which have their hot/dead pixels mapped out in the factory. Now, some pixels will die or become hot during your camera's lifetime; some cameras will automatically map them out when shooting JPEG, others let you map them manually each time you find a new one, while other cameras do nothing. Personally, I shoot RAW, and Adobe Camera Raw maps out hot pixels automatically, so I don't have to worry about them.</p>

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