Second shooter question...

[imagesbylori]

<p>My husband and I shoot weddings together, but he could not come to the last one we shot, so I hired a friend for $15 an hour to help me out. This was my first time hiring someone to work for me.. <br /> She asked if she could use the images she took for her portfolio, I said "yes"<br /> After posting her pics from the recent wedding online with her watermark, My husband said.. its bad for your business if she is using "our" images online, and also without the consent of the bride and groom. I told her to take them down merely because the bride had not even seen them yet, and it would be horrible to see your wedding photos on facebook for the first time (without your consent) on a strangers facebook page!<br /> help!? I realize its a little different, because she is a friend, and she is looking to pursue her photography career, but in your own business..profesionally speaking.. how do you deal with second shooters rights?<br /> Who owns the rights to the pics? Do you use your second shooters images on your webpage? Can they use them for promotional purposes for themselves? <br /> As a second shooter before... I came across both situations. One photographer i worked for said I could use them however. The other photographer said "no way. I own the rights to these."</p>

<p>Not sure what to do in this situation. ?</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Please do a search. There have been a number of threads about second shooters. Here is one in which Rachel Peek has given a lot of good info. Much of what she says can be used in answer to your questions.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00TypL">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00TypL</a></p>

[c._f.]

<p>Lori, what I do is if I shoot for a studio (which is probably 99% of the time) I use studio's cards. If I have someone shooting for me, I give them the card in the beggining of the job and get it back at the end of the job.<br>

Also I know my shooters and studios trust me so trust is important but even back in film. Studio was giving 30rolls of film, at the end of the job, or next morning, I delievered 30rolls of fim, etc etc<br>

Good Luck<br>

Adam</p>

[lisa_f]

<p>Yup. I second Nadine. I had all the same questions as you but as the 2nd/3rd shooter and the thread, especially Rachel's reply answers much of it.</p>

<p>Your second shooter will find these policies with most anyone she shoots for/with. I realized when I someday become the main photog (doing all the work of building a business, managing the client, insurance, etc.), I'd expect the same from a second shooter. I am quickly learning that one of the most important aspects of this business is working well with other people.</p>

<p>At first, I thought it would be so cool to be able to put my name on "my" images, but I quickly realized the scope was much larger than me (including involving the bride and groom, who so generously allowed me to be part of their day AND fed me). When I asked my friend/main photo how it was handled, she shared how it was handled when she was a second shooter. Neither of us was sure if it was the "right" way and so we asked here and everything pretty much matched up. So luckily we never had a conflict.</p>

<p>Basically, we decided that she would put either:<br>

Copyright HER BUSINESS by MY NAME<br>

or<br>

Copyright MY NAME for HER BUSINESS<br>

or simply if she wants<br>

Copyright HER BUSINESS (because I'm simply so grateful for the chance)</p>

<p>For my portfolio, I'll do whatever she chooses because I could not have made those images without her. I'm grateful to her. I have so much to learn from her and I want to be asked back. And with consideration to the bride, the only image I've posted anywhere (in an obscure place) is one of my photo friend working with the bride so some of my other photog friends can see it.</p>

<p>Also, search for another thread here called "Working for a Boss, Promoting Yourself - A Question on behalf of "Anne" which also reveals some straightforward explanations.</p>

<p>Basically, I think one of the most important things is to agree how it will be handled BEFORE the event. I know you don't have that luxury. But I find it interesting that if the 2nd shooter disagrees, the 1st shooter still has the gig and can find another 2nd shooter who works under the common practice. The 2nd shooter wanting to work under other conditions has nothing.</p>

<p>And the other big point I learned from this board and these threads, is don't lose sight of the customer/client.</p>

[imagesbylori]

<p>

<p>thanks for the responses. I appreciate it.</p>

<p>I had done a search, but was looking to narrow it down a bit to my more precise questions....</p>

<p>So, basically.. when she is using them, my studio name should be on the images somewhere, as well as hers?</p>

<p>And the second shooters images belong to my studio because they were working for me?</p>

<p>Just looking to expand possibly to more second/third shooters in the future.. and looking to avoid any common possible situations that might arise. </p>

</p>

[lisa_f]

<p>Yeah. You are getting the idea. There seems to be some common practices out there but it really boils down tohow the two of you decide together. Like Rachel's answer says they know it's their business, their company but they like to let the 2nd fulfill their artistic need.</p>

<p>She should not be trying to sell her photos to anyone as it is YOUR business and you paid her to do a job. As far as the WATERMARK goes, it doesn't really matter except the pride factor. Whatever the watermark says it is there to prevent ANYONE ELSE from making $ from the photos or claiming them as theirs besides the team of you. Between the two of you, you should be proud to say you have access to talent besides yourself to create a "total product" for the bride and your friend can be proud to say she shoots for you, which can help her gain credibility and experience. If you think of what you each can gain by working together and helping each other, instead what you can lose, things start to get clearer. But it is YOUR business and she represents you when she is your second and until she gets her own clients, you have provided this opportunity for her. Most don't even let the 2nd shooter leave with the digital images.</p>

<p>You didn't mention if you looked back at the other thread for Rachel's reply or not. It actually does specifically answer your questions (in case you didn't check it.)</p>

<p>And the real strategy for everyone involved is to agree or simply find someone else to work with. Also, to easily understand both sides, consider that in the future YOU may be a second shooter for someone else so then what watermark is used?</p>

[imagesbylori]

<p>ok thanks. just curious how it works, since im still learning the ropes of being self employed. Obviously, this case is very different because she is my friend, and i dont mind her using them. But, mine and my husbands main concern is being with second shooters in general. my friend is a great photographer..so its awesome to have her working for me & she would never attempt to make money with the images.. <br>

I did second shoot for years, but was never able to use them online, so thats why i was wondering what most people do & why. i will go over Rachel's thread again.<br>

thanks for all the input! cheers! </p>

 

[frank_skomial]

<p>"After posting her pics from the recent wedding online with her watermark, My husband said.. its bad for your business if she is using "our" images online, and also without the consent of the bride and groom." - your husband is right. I would loose friend like that.</p>

<p>"And the second shooters images belong to my studio because they were working for me?" - yes, make sure that you always explain that to people you hire, and best if this is placed on paper in formed of an agreement or policy. And you are responsible for second shooters irresponsible actions.</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>As difficult as it may seem to use "contracts" with friends, it's tremendously helpful for keeping communications open and avoiding conflict later, especially when it comes to licensing and copyright issues. In the referenced (Rachel's) posting, it was clear that they knew that their use of seconds didn't necessarily create a "work for hire" situation so ownership and licensing was spelled out.</p>

<p>These forums are littered with posts and threads where "employees" or seconds or assistants are using images they shot or trying to get images they shot (usually after a friendship or employment gig has ended) and neither party necessarily understands the laws on the ownership of the images.</p>

<p>It will also be helpful if the prime contracts and shooter's "releases" are clear on the ability to allow the second to use the images in their own portfolios and advertising and this should be explained to customers so they aren't surprised - remembering that releases are needed for any of the identifiable individuals, not just those signing the contracts.</p>