ellery Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p>Hello all - I have been learning photography for fun purely when I am not working (signing up for a night course starting in july) - I have a D90 with kit lens 18mm-105 f3.5-5.6, SB900, wirless remote, and a tripod. My brother did not plan on having a photographer apparently and asked his wannabe weekend warrior photographer brother to help him - I declined, but its apparently me or no one (small wedding, very modest budget) - I informed him that the picks would likely suck (I do not plan on them sucking totally :) but keeping expectations rock bottom, heh heh) - anyway - I am doing it and have been reading and preparing alot - I have a more specificy question:<br>I was originally told no photos will be taken during the ceremony (catholic small day chapel) - but just found out that I can take without flash or significant intrusion.....anyway, I took some test shots with high ISO's and it is ok - would prefer ISO 200 :) - (on that note can one of you just mail me one of your high end lenses with f1.2 or 1.8) as this would help me - but seriously, assume with the question that my lens is the only option as it is. My question is really what Tv can I get away with during the ceremony to minimize noise but avoid motion blur during the ceremony - will likely use my tripod. I was able to get OK exposure using ISO 800-1600 but to use less than 1600 I felt I must use Tv 1/20 or 1/30 - 1/50 or 1/60 with 1600 did ok....anyway my wife is planning on going out there with me to be my pretend bride and take some more test shots, but what does everyone think?<br>Also, editing wise - I am learning and have been using only capture NX 2 (which I like alot so far - although have no comparison at this point) - I am currently reading a book on capture NX 2 by "Mike Hagen "After the Shoot" - under his section of noise reduction - it states that the best way is no selectively apply NR during editing to selective darker areas that it becomes apparent. Shoud I not use the cameras NR (low, med, high) to avoid global loss of detail/sharpness, and what will be the best way to treat noise in these pictures for editing (again I only have capture NX).</p><p>Sorry I am long winded.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradley_nielsen Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p>Hello Ellery - I have equipment much like yours. I would keep your aperture as wide as you can, meaning that your going to have to stay closer to 18mm to get your 3.5 aperture. The D90 is much better than my D80 at higher ISOs but even then i still don't like to go over 800 if at all possible. If your shutter gets down to about a 1/15 using ISO 800, your tripod will come in handy. Make sure that they are relatively still when you're shooting this low. I would also mix it up a bit between ISO 1600 and ISO 800 so that you can make sure that you don't get too many blurry photos when shooting at that low of a shutter. A noisy photo is going to better than blurry photos. Also, i would definately consider buying a 50mm 1.8 lens for this wedding. It will set you back $130 bucks (ridiculously low for the quality that you get). Mayber your brother could even help you with that as a little thank you for doing his wedding? Just a thought. This lens will come in really handy later in the wedding as well, it's a fantastic "detailer."<br> Finally, good luck! These situations are tough, but with all the practicing and work you are putting into this, i think you will do just fine. If only we could all just start out with D3x's and 2.8 lenses right? ah, it would be nice.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennifer_r2 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p>This may not be the answer you are looking for, but if you are <em>really </em>unhappy with the ISO you are using, have you thought about renting the lens? If you are using a tripod, and don't need image stabilization, I think you can get a Tamron 70-200/2.8 for a week with shipping and insurance for less than $100 from somewhere like lensrental.com. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p ><em><strong>"I was able to get OK exposure using ISO 800-1600 but to use less than 1600 I felt I must use Tv 1/20 or 1/30 - 1/50 or 1/60 with 1600 did ok....anyway my wife is planning on going out there with me to be my pretend bride and take some more test shots, but what does everyone think?"</strong></em></p> <p > </p> <p >I think practicing is a good idea. Using your wife is a good idea too - assuming she was recently married, she can<em><strong> mimic the ritual</strong></em> as it is fresh in her mind - she should got through the motions as if real, rather than just be "a model" for your light meter readings - I assumed this is your intention. </p> <p > </p> <p >(Using a tripod / monopod or really good bracing technique), IME, you should pull some at 1/30s - and consistently - when the B&G are standing or knelling - NOT walking.</p> <p >You will get some at 1/15s - many experienced Photographers do, regularly.</p> <p >1/8s is lucky or skilful, IMO.</p> <p >1/50s or 1/60s is "safer"</p> <p > </p> <p >Timing the shutter release is very important. People wobble, even when they are standing still. You need to expose when they are most relaxed . . . as one specific (extreme) example . . .</p> <p > </p> <p >The B&G walk to the Altar rails and then kneel. What usually happens is they then lean their elbows on the rail and their chin often sits on the tops of their hands - or they might look up at the Priest with their arms along the Altar rail - whatever - there is a point where they become relaxed - sometimes you can actually see their breathe exhale - at that point there is a moment of stillness - and it is usually accompanied but a really warm expression - that is the moment of shutter release - one can pull 1/8s at that point.</p> <p > </p> <p >OK, that was an extreme example, but I think often an extreme example explains a concept well?</p> <p > </p> <p >The other point to note is your lens . . . its maximum aperture: you can leverage the speed of the lens (to get the fastest Tv) by using it at the wide end.</p> <p > </p> <p >But with varying maximum aperture zoom lenses, they are usually at their slowest, about half way through their zoom: so I guess you will have F/5.6 at about 50mm or 60mm . . . so if you can get close enough, using the lens around 20mm to 24mm would be very useful - I expect you can get F/3.5 out of your lens, even at 24mm . . . you should test that out too.</p> <p > </p> <p >I know you do not want to buy another lens . . . but you must know a lot of people . . . one of your mates might have a Nikon 50mmF/1.8 they could loan you? - just a thought.</p> <p > </p> <p >WW </p> <p > </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p>I agree with everything William W. said. Re the noise reduction--I've always heard that the best quality noise reduction is through separate NR programs. I use Neat Image as a last step after processing my files through Lightroom (without the NR).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booray Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 <p>At this stage of the game you will have enough to worry about without sweating the ISO. Set it high and keep it there so you can concentrate on the other 20 things that will be running through your head while you try to shoot. Like Bradley said, grain beats blur everytime.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>Well, I had recently bough the SB900 in light (no pun intended) of my being asked to do this gig - I figured it would be the most useful item lacking in my arsenal for the wedding - now I hardly have a dime at the moment to spare towards a lens - I have not thought to ask my brother, but I know my brother well enough to say he would look at me cross eyed and be really pissed (even though I have invested quite a bit of money and time towards preparing my self) - My wife and I are pharmacists and he would proly just expect me to buy it myself - usually I would, but things are a bit tight now - we just finished a hella bunch of home renovations and our credit is a bit uncomfortably extended - thought about renting, but hate the idea of "blowing" the money (even though it would likely help as you all stated. <br> WW - your comments were exactly what I was looking for regarding optimal Tv during the ceremony - I was not sure if anything less than 1/30 would even be do-able - again I am going to practice extensively with my wife and a friend to help re-inact the scene and motion. One of my previous co-workers has a but-load of equipment and he knows that I have been asked to shoot the wedding etc...but he never extended the help so I felt like he may not be comfortable with my borrowing it?? - I may get desperate and ask him...(he is not a really close friend per se) - hey WW, whats your number again for my speed dial :)</p> <p>Is the 50mm f1.8 nikon 130$ have auto focus or manual ?? That seems surprisingly cheep :) - I cannot wait to get a better fast lens like this!!<br> Booray - I know exactly what you mean - I will be practicing extensively in hopes to streamline my thought process as it relates to altering camera settings as I do not want to fumble with this and miss the shots - I do however hope to try a couple different shutter speeds in hopes to get a couple brighter shots - we will see - Ill let you all know more after my practice!! On that note, I wish I had like a pre-set for settings on this occ....not sure if nikons really have this feature - please dont start a cannon vs. nikon discussion :).<br> anyway - thanks for the advice everyone - will be of great help Im sure - Ill make sure and share with you all some shots for criticism/comment later (wedding date = 7/4/09)<br> Feel free to make further comments/ideas that would benefit me.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis_g Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p> They're getting hitched on my birthday. One suggestion: A contract delineating your total lack of wedding experience and making it clear there is no compensation, therefore no expectation of any results of any quality, number or kind is expressed or implied.</p> <p> I also think you should pop for the 50/1.8.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>Point regarding the contract noted - I am not sure if I could bring myself to actually do this as I know my brother very well and I am certain that he would be insulted by the gesture - he is a bit tempermental - does that mean that I believe that I will be free of litigation - no - who is anyway - I will assume this risk - if it comes to pass that my own brother sues me for taking a few picutres for free because he cannot afford anything else - then I will have lost all hope in humanity and will not care very much about monetary loss. For my brother to do this he would have to look at all of his family in the eye and simply flat out lie.<br> But, its my closest brother - it would not happen! FAMOUS LAST WORDS RIGHT, heh heh.<br> I do know what you mean though, I have read those threads before regarding litigation - people think they have the right to sue for every freakin thing and I know that they will, even family Im sure at some point - sad.....</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>I like your prose, and agree with your viewpoint, Ellery.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradley_nielsen Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>The 50mm 1.8 is an autofocus lens. Why is it so cheap? Cheap to make. Definately doesn't mean that the quality is bad. Is a 50mm 1.4 for about $500 better, of course. But the 1.8 for $130 is the best deal out there. I would recommend getting it just as soon as you can, you'll love it. Beware when you first see it, you'll be like, "seriously, this is it?" It looks whimpy, but packs a mighty punch. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>50mm F/1.8 lenses (various manufacturers) have their history in SLR (film cameras).</p> <p>FL = 50mm is a "standard lens" for 135 format (35mm film). The 50 F/1.8 was standard issue as the "kit lens" with a new SLR.</p> <p>Simple economics, simple design, simple price, and yes good pictures too and fast aperture.</p> <p>The important issue to remember is that a 50mm lens acts as a short telephoto on many DSLRs - such as those with an APS-C sized sensor, like the D90 - so whilst the 50mm has a fast aperture and is good for available light capture one also needs the space (inside) to use it.</p> <p><em><strong>In a small Church at tight quarters, perhaps near the Sanctuary that might mean only Half Shots are possible, if at all, as one example.</strong></em></p> <p>I usually mention this point earlier in a discussion, it slipped my mind: sorry I was focussed on shutter speed and mentioned borrowing the 50mm in passing - you should test what space you actually have - set your zoom at 50mm when you do your practice shoot</p> <p>WW</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_hazelton Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>Hi Ellery,<br /> You state in your post: “…assume with the question that my lens is the only option as it is” and that flash will not be allowed. That leaves just the shutter speed and ISO. I feel that most of the advice so far has concentrated on pushing the shutter speed too low, and not pushing the ISO high enough. Let me quote from a DP Review article titled: “Nikon D90 plus hands-on preview, Wednesday, 27 August 2008”: “The extremely wide sensitivity range of ISO 200 to 3200 delivers incredibly low-noise throughout” (see http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08082702nikond90previewed.asp ). Couple this with the facts that: a) noise is not nearly as apparent on paper prints as it is on screen, b) noise reduction software is quite effective at reducing noise, albeit with some slight loss of fine detail, and c) most customers are not bothered by noise nearly as much as photographers. On the other hand, motion blur is going to bother everyone, and can be improved in post-production only very slightly. My advice is to try a practice session with your camera in a low-light room, similar to the kind of lighting you expect at the venue, and use 3200 and 6400 ISO settings. It is important, at this level, that you not underexpose. Raising the exposure in post-production really increases the noise a lot, and should be avoided. Then, run your photos through some noise reduction software, such as Noise Ninja. Then, print out a few shots. I think you’ll be favorably surprised. If you are, you can consider using much faster shutter speeds, and decreasing your chance of motion blur.<br /> A final suggestion: in many cases where “flash is not allowed”, the rule applies only to the ceremony itself, and flash may well be allowed for the procession and recession. Since that’s when motion (and shutter speed) is the greatest problem, it’s worth double checking about this restriction.<br /> Best of luck,<br /> John</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>John, your comment is much appreciated - I will do everything to avoid motion blur including boosting my ISO - I will do as you say and practice with higher ISO's as well and see how they turn out. Good point about when flash is not allowed - I will clarify this point - I have been to a couple of catholic weddings in the past - "no flash allowed" and all the family are still just-a-flashin - perhaps Ill sneak a flash or two :) - just kidding. <br> Oh, another question - I read that B&W is a good option for high ISO as noise is much less apparent?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_hazelton Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>The B&W tip is correct.<br> John</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p><em><strong>The B&W tip is correct</strong></em>. . . but do not assume one can compromise correct exposure (i.e. do not underexpose). <br> John has mentioned not underexposing at High ISO - having the intention to later make a B&W conversion doesn't change that necessity for getting the correct exposure. Underexposure and then B&W conversion can end up quite "yucky".<br> <br> WW </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 <p>I just remembered this thread; it wanders all over many topics - but at the core has a Wedding Image which is <strong><em>underexposed and shot at ISO3200 </em></strong>taken with your model lens (maybe your camera model, too). <br> <br> It is well worth a read, I think: <a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00TGA5">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00TGA5</a><br> <br> WW<br> <br /><br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 <p>Wow - long thead - have not read through it all, but it certainly put my worries to rest - I will say that I think the comment that he shot at F18 was a typo or something....also, I did do some test shots today in the church with my wife - I will post some of them in a bit for your thoughts - I think ISO 1600 and shoot anywhere from 1/20-1/60 (depending on my FL) - I got some pretty good looking results that are workable - the f1.8 would obviously help...ill share more later for further discussion, but it looks like it should work out pretty good - I am now more worried about camera angle and shooting location - its a kinda really small day chapel and I am not supposed to be too intrusive (plan to clarify this point later with the coordinator)......</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 <p>Here is a few of the pics from this link with settings used - these are un-edited pretty much - just want to check the overall exposure and see if you all think the settings are ok...</p> <p><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/elrycurt/CeremonyTemps">http://picasaweb.google.com/elrycurt/CeremonyTemps</a>#</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 <p>I know the composition, WB, contrast, etc...may not be ideal in these shots, but, I just want to judge what would be my best camera setting(s) to focus on using during the ceremony - I think that I will have to use two different settings mainly - one for wide angle, one for tighter shots with higher FL (remember when I zoom to my aperature drops) - oh hey WW, FYI, at 24mm I get f4, 35mm 4.5, 50mm f5......</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 <p >Have a close look at DSC_0157, I think you caught a little subject movement in her head and hands - a bit hard to tell on the low resolution image but both appeared slightly motion blurred, in comparison to her feet. </p> <p > </p> <p >If I am correct, then this is an example of what we are discussing and that shot was at 1/40s and at the widest zoom (there is least “evidence” of motion blur at the wide). </p> <p > </p> <p >I might be wrong? Mine is as much of a guess as it is a “for certain” comment. </p> <p > </p> <p >On the other hand, DCS_0160 the image is captured quite still enough at 1/25s - so that shows what is actually possible.</p> <p > </p> <p >*** </p> <p > </p> <p > <p >The light is difficult in that it is not illuminating the face – so you might want to over expose just a little (maybe 1/2stop) and later in post production pull the highlights back a fraction to get better skin – but also not blow the white gown. Do this only if you feel confident – the exposure over the whole scenes seems OK to me, looking at the images provided. Manipulation from RAW file would enhance. (This assumes your tests where done at the same time of day as the Cermony will be.)</p> <p > </p> </p> <p > </p> <p > </p> <p >Note the dark circles under the eyes in DSC_0160 which is because of the <em >direction</em> of the light (mainly from above) – that is usually the reason why the kneeling and “looking up” shots stand out when shooting in a Church in Available light.</p> <p ></p> <p > </p> <p >***</p> <p > </p> <p ><strong><em>"FYI, at 24mm I get f4, 35mm 4.5, 50mm f5......"</em></strong></p> <p > </p> <p >Thanks for that. I won't necessarily use the information myself, as I do not use Nikon, but I was chuffed you actually investigated your lens to this degree - that shows compulsive interest, your Brother and his Wife will benefit. :) </p> <p > </p> <p >***</p> <p > </p> <p >Another very small item, there is a little barrel distortion at 17mm - likely it will be hardly noticeable for a single or two shot - but you will need to watch it if you do a group shot - just keep a bit of space at the edges.</p> <p > </p> <p >FYI, the "tell" is the horizontal line running through the stained glass window- it is not horizontal it is bowed in the centre, pointing toward the top of the image. </p> <p > </p> <p >WW </p> <p > </p> <p > </p> <p > </p> <p > </p> <p > </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 <p>You are correct about motion blur at times - Out of the number of shots that I took between 1/20-1/50 I had some blur in quick hand motions or shakes of the hair - I think that I will simply have to live with a few of these shots, but, as you stated, I was able to get fairly sharp images at 1/20 ish - I think 1/40-1/50 will likely capture most images I want, but I will likely shoot a slower shutter for my higher FL's to avoid over-exposure - I tried ISO 3200, but I still had motion blur with quick movements - I think I will be ok at ISO 1600 fixed and 1/40 ish - thanks WW for your spot on comments - thanks for noticing the distortion - will certainly remember that point for group photos (I have read this too). <br> Oh and I am compulsive, obsessive even to my wifes shegrin :) - She does not have as much patience as my photo dummy as I would like - I was reading a book in the past week talking about practicing lighting/shooting with a dummy/manican - I am gonna trade her in - haha.<br> Oh and I did practice these shots at nearly the same time of day as will be the ceremony - you know I would live up to my obsessive personality my friend - hopefully it will all pan out to make a few nice memories.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 <p><strong><em>"hopefully it will all pan out to make a few nice memories."</em></strong><br> <br> I have 100% faith - it will be. <br> So there will be no need for the speed dial, my friend.<br> <br> WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellery Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 <p>Yeah, I think so too - I will make sure and share some of the results with you all. I have the rehearsal this friday for which I will take more practice shots too, so I feel like I will be as prepared as I can be.<br> Oh, thanks for the vocabulary lesson - "chuffed" - I have never heard/seen this verb, it has an interesting ring to it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimee_pieters Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 <p>Ellery,<br> Here's another point that I haven't seen any comments on. Is your future sister-in-law on the same page as your brother? You talk about him, his wishes and his reactions.<br> I'm just telling you from many years of experience to be careful. Although it's your brother, if something doesn't go the way that everyone expects it to, you can't move on to the next customer. You need to spend holidays with all of these people forever....-Aimee</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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