Thinking about buying an M8/M8.2, looking for some help.

[dennis lee]

<p>I'm thinking about buying a M8 or the newer M8.2, but I have a couple questions and concerns that I thought you might be able to help me with.</p>

<p>I shoot a lot, a lot of digital, using the D700 primarily with a couple other Nikon mount bodies as backup. I was thinking of adding another D700 to the arsenal but frankly, I'm tired of shooting so darned 'clean.' I'm coming to the end of a year long construction project that I've been documenting for some builders and a month or so ago I began shooting film with one of my old Leicas just to mix it up a bit. For me, there is nothing more intuitive, loose, energetic and possibly immediate than the look I get with the Leica. Don't get me wrong, I love SLR's and I couldn't do my job without them, but after a while the precise framing becomes boring and the necessity - or desire - for something more intuitive aesthetically, like the Leica rangefinder comes in.</p>

<p>The film workflow just isn't working either for the old M's... well, it does and doesn't... B&W C-41 aint Tri-X and I don't have time for scanning and cleaning...</p>

<p>I know my Leicas and I know rangefinders, that's not my question.</p>

<p>First, the DX (1.5X) format of earlier digital Nikons really bugged me, the Leica is 1.3X right? How do you feel about that? I like my 50 to be a fifty. I know my 50. It's the best and most useful lens in the bag. How's it feel on the M8 with the X factor? Will I like it? I'm reaching out to 50 users here. People who really know what a 50 can do. How about the 35...? It comes in at about 46~47mm? How's that feel on the M8? Does it come close to replacing my 50?</p>

<p>How's the high ISO? What's the highest really useable quality, let's say for a wedding job?</p>

<p>Does this camera feel and work like the old M's I'm used to? Only with the ease and trouble digital brings?</p>

<p>Is it true my two favorite lenses; my 50DR and 21/3.4 won't work with it?</p>

<p>Is this a camera that will make an old time rangefinder shooter happy?</p>

<p>Looking forward to your replies, thanks.</p>

<p>Dennis</p>

 

[michael_a._shapiro]

<p>Lots of questions-probably get a lot of answers. You will want to use a 35mm lens as your normal lens. Don't worry; it will feel just like a 50 on a film camera.<br>

The m8.2 does feel like an M. It is not, however, a high ISO camera. 400 and 800 are fine. (nominally 320 and 640). The files are beautiful.</p>

<p>You will like the camera.</p>

<p>Michael</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>To add to Michael's comments I would say you might not like the shutter sound of either the M8 or M8.2, at least compared to film Leicas. The 1.33 X factor is really only a problem with the 28mm, 24mm and 21mm focal lengths, which will require 21mm, 18mm and something like 16mm lenses to achieve that. Unfortunately, no fairly reasonable f2 lenses are available in these short focal lengths, unless you are willing to pay really big money for the new Leica 21mm f1.4. However, I get by with a 21mm f2.8 aspherical and the slow but inexpensive lenses from V-C (I have only the 12 mm f5.6).</p>

<p>High ISO of reasonable quality is possible only with B&W mode, not colour. However, Leica at weddings often means informal type shots which might be fine in B&W.</p>

<p>In general, and despite its extra bulk, the M8 (and I presume also the M8.2) has the traditional Leica M feel, with similar VF and RF operation, simple controls and the ease of manual override.</p>

[ofey_kalakar]

<p>The Voightlander and Zeiss lens alternatives are excellent</p><div></div>

[ron_breeze2]

<p>Dennis I would suggest you try to rent an M8(2) with either the 35 lux or the 28 cron and see if you like the camera or wait until 09/09/2009 when Leica is supposed to announce the M9 FF camera and see if you like it. I've been a Leica film camera user for many years and the switch to the M8 was a piece of cake for me. The M8 is a very versatile camera in that it will shoot color, b&w and IR without modification. As with all Leicas it is the perfect street camera, travel camera and I backpack with mine all the time because it is so light weight and portable. According to Leica neither your 21 or your DR will work with the M8 but I would suggest the newer 21 Elmarit ASPH with 6 bit coding as the M8 software will do in camera corrections for the wide angle. You really need to decide for yourself about the digital M's as it is a healthy investment and I wouldn't rely 100% on advice from others to make that decision. For me it was a decision I've never looked back on and I'll only stop using my M8 when Leica tells me they no longer have parts to fix it.</p>

[dennis lee]

<p>Thanks guys. I'm liking what I'm hearing.</p>

<p>Ron, I'd never make this kind of decision based on forum advice. But, there's a lot of knowledge out there from people like you that have been M users for years and have made this leap. I like the fact that the switch was seamless for you and that you have no thoughts of looking back. That's a pretty good endorsement.</p>

<p>I think renting the 8.2 is a great idea. The thought of a FF M9 coming out is exciting yet financially frightening. I'd probably want the FF so bad but not be able to afford it that I wouldn't by either. Speaking of which, the $2k difference between the 8 and 8.2 is pretty substantial. That's a bit of a tough choice too.</p>

<p>Thanks again, Dennis</p>

[kens]

<p>Wait until the announcement - strong vibes that will occur Sept 9th. Either 1) the ff M9 will look so attractive at such a reasonable price you won't be able to resist, or 2) the drop in M8/8.2 prices will make them irresistible.</p>

[steve_unsworth1]

<p>A French dealer temporarily had details of the M9 on his web site. Full frame, 18 mp and 500 Euros more expensive that the M8.2. Personally I'd wait to see what happened next month.</p>

[ray .]

<p>Dennis, I'd pick up a used one at KEH- you'd have a couple weeks to try it out. The M8 is a close cousin to the film camera, not a twin. The M8.2 may be closer, I don't know. You can get close to the equivalent angle of view, but I have to tell you that for me 25+ years of using a film M makes for a familiarity that gives a dead aim that I don't get as often yet with the M8. On the other hand, if you use a 35 you're going to mimic a 50 full frame and have the added benefit of extra depth of field. And in certain ways the images can be stunning. </p>

[charles_hess2]

<p>I think it would boil down to the handling, as you won't get "better" images from the M8 over your D700. Also an M film user for years, I've never had the interest to move to the M digital because of it's lens limitations... and outrageous price tag. So, it's the M6 for fun, the D700 for work, which works for me. With the high price tag, unless it means nothing to you, I'd really think about what you need in your digital work.</p>

[peter_mann3]

<p>The 50mm Summicron f2 recent vintage is a stunning lens. The thing I happily discovered was that the effective 67mm fl on the M8.2 (compared to 35mm FF numbers) provides a lovely and useful perspective. And a super portrait length for two or three models. I used M7s for several years, and the M8.2 is an easy shift of gears, with same ease, essential characteristics. My interest now in an M9 is much diminished, the more I use the M8.2. And a clue: try the 18mm f3.8 lens, equivalent to 24mm. It is a fantastic lens, just a marvel, with depth of field that won't stop and other optical features that are unbeatable. My journalistic lens is the f2 28mm, just super. And finally, my fourth lens for normal usage, the f4 90mm macro, which is super compact for this fl, and marvelously sharp and contrasty--real Leica images. I am now the happiest shooting Leicas over 50 years that I have ever been and digital is so easy, the prints so gorgeous with little time or effort printing, I am very happy.</p>

[dennis lee]

<p>Wow, thanks again. September is so close and FF so... desired I guess, I'll probably wait and see what happens with Leica and any M9 announcements. In the meanwhile I may rent an M8.2 and see how it feels.</p>

<p>Ray, always love seeing your images. Surprised there aren't any M8 images in the portfolio. Or did I miss them? Also surprised on your comment about the 'dead aim' of the camera. Do you attribute that to the magnification factor?</p>

<p>Peter, I was wondering if the 50 might not be nice a little longer. Although I never cared for the 28 too much on the M camera (it was my daily go to lens for years and years on the Nikon - 28/2 - best lens ever) I've been thinking it might not be too bad with the X factor either. Nice assembly of equipment you have there.</p>

<p>Price is a concern for me and the only reason I'm thinking about doing this at all is that I've had a pretty good year financially and would like to offset some taxes by buying a little gear. This kind of opportunity doesn't knock to often, so if it offers me a chance to get into a digital Leica I kinda feel like jumping on it. Of course the cost of glass after the body is always a concern too.</p>

<p>Digitally/professionally I've got all the glass I need and frankly don't care for these big Nikon zooms but they really do the job when you need them. A second D700 wouldn't be a terrible idea. But the idea of a rangefinder to mix up the take a little and add something a little different is just too appealing. It seems like I'm so busy shooting for work lately (actually all my time is in post) that it's at work that I find my personal pictures. If I find any at all, which is another reason for the Leica. Reminds me of guys like Burk Uzzle who carried a Leica with them on corporate jobs to get the occasional personal pictures. That sounds good to me.</p>

[ray .]

<p>Yeah, a digital SLR is certainly going to be more versatile for shooting weddings, and for color the M8 is more quirky and less reliable in odd lighting situations than a 5D, for instance, and probably your Nikon. The color is excellent in natural light, but the camera really shines for black & white. </p>

<p>'Dead aim'- the M8.2 apparently fixed the problem, but the framing is a little off on the M8 for medium close distances. You get used to it, and it really becomes the same as any RF- that framing isn't as precise as an SLR. The thing is, with a crop camera, aside from it being digital, a 35 X 1.3 just looks a little different than a straight 50 on full frame. It's not that you are dissatisfied with the results, it's just that when you go back to shooting film M you see how everything fits together differently. And yes, that's mostly about the magnification factor. I'll post a couple of shots...</p>

[ray .]

<p><a title="Untitled by Chaospress, on Flickr" href=" src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/3001560667_a34134e534_o.jpg" alt="" /></a><br>

M8 w/ 35 Summicron</p>

[ray .]

<p><a title="Untitled by Chaospress, on Flickr" href=" src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/3001639877_8866c56a5c_o.jpg" alt="" /></a>w/ 35 Summi....</p>

[ray .]

<p><a title="Untitled by Chaospress, on Flickr" href=" src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3017/3091215869_ec276db71e_o.jpg" alt="" width="1000" height="686" /></a><br>

28mm w/ IR filter, proper lens coding</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Dennis, it is not an easy choice to make, but as far as digital rangefinders go, there is little else (unless Leica brings out the long anticipated ff M9, Epson brings out a new digi RF, or (best in my mind) if Mamiya ressurects its excellent 6 and provides a digi-back for it and a faster 50mm wide angle). I don't think it makes sense for me to upgrade my M8 for an M8.2. The wind-on, not shutter, noise of the M 8.2 seems still too loud for rapid street photography. If I was buying. I would certainly wait to see what the M9 delivers (tax year closing is still far off...). If it isn't much better, I think I would buy the M8 at 4 grand and live with the crop factor.</p>

<p> </p>

[ray .]

<p>A couple more things.. If you're shooting color at a wedding you're absolutely going to need the lenses coded with an IR filter and set accordingly in the menu. That can be a hassle if you have old Leica lenses you want to use. You can send the lens to Leica, but the best thing is to buy a lens that's already factory coded by Leica. I wouldn't mess around with the do-it-yourself kits. Also, I know a couple people who shoot the camera at ISO 1250 with good results. It's a rougher look but it can work nicely depending...... Then, I find Capture One gives much better results than Adobe for DNG processing, but that's just me.... And with all that definitely wait to see what's up with an M9 </p>

<p>Most of this set was done with M8 and 28mm.... except for 5 or 6 film pics near the end:</p>

<p>http://www.flickr.com/photos/30151432@N00/sets/72157608933262479/</p>

<p>'Hollywood Blvd' set has more color. Please keep in mind the flickr stuff is a very loose edit. ;)</p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>This is a good time to buy a new M8 or M8.2. It's been debugged. The M9 will be out soon. So expect fairly reasonable prices. I mean close to or than what Leica is asking for the MP and M7.</p>

<p>If you shoot color the need for IR/UV cut filters and coding is a bit of a pain. </p>

<p>If you want your 50mm lens to be a 50 the M8s might not be for you.</p>

<p>I have an M8, have accepted its quirks, and do not expect it to outlive either my mechanical Ms or me. I do love it for what it does. </p>

<p>I too have little time but I do scan my film work flow. The trick is to do something else while a frame is being scanned. </p>

[steve_swinehart]

<p>The frame lines on the M8 are not even close to accurate unless the viewfinder has been upgraded. I found the framing nearly unworkable as I like tightly composed images - the M8.2 viewfinder includes the new finder. I've had my M8 viewfinder upgraded and I find it makes a huge difference. As stated previously, ISO 640 is really the highest usable ISO for color, if you're converting to B&W - I've seen some nice B&W done at 1250. I don't find the 1.3 factor a problem, I just work with it.</p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>I like the frames as they are on the M8. Gives leeway when shooting from the hip and great with my Canon 85/1.5 and 100/2.</p>

[john_newell2]

<p>Absolutely agree on renting it (the Leica "Test Drive") program. I rented an M8 and a Summarit for $100 for a week. It was money very well spent.<br>

I like my 50s more now that they are cropped like a 66mm - ymmv. <br>

Agree on the bugs being out of the M8/8.2 now for the most part. Wait and see on the M9, but there is nothing to suggest that it won't have bugs, and nothing to suggest speedy resolution, if history is any guide.<br>

I compared the files I got from the rental M8 to my M6+Coolscan files and sold the M6es. YMMV. BTW, if you rent, find out what the firmware version is. V2.xxx has, among other things, much better AWB. I also think that jpgs out of any M8 tend to be less indicative of what you can really get if you work from raw files than is the case with Canikon DSLRs.</p>

[dennis lee]

<p>Wow, more great insight, thanks again. Nice shots Ray, if you hadn't told me I could of sworn that first shot was a Winogrand.</p>

<p>I did a little checking and the rental rates for the M8/.2 are astoundingly reasonable. What is up with that?! Hey, I'm not complaining... I'm probably going to do a rental (wish I had known this was so affordable earlier, I would have loved to have really shot this job with it...) and see what September 9 brings. Pretty exciting in a very expensive non affordable way... but what the heck, might as well wait and see. And yes, tax year closing is still pretty far off.</p>

<p>Ray, your second shot above reminded me of this M shot from a few years back. Felt the urge to post something here... it's been a while.</p>

<div></div>

[john_newell2]

<p>One or two minor follow-ups on the rental. The dealer who rents the camera may be willing to sell it to you (or not). And if so, the dealer may be willing to give you credit for the rental fee. My experience was that the package the dealer I rented from was not competitive with the Leica refurbs, but ymmv. Make very sure you understand whether you get a Leica warranty with a purchased rental and how long the term of the warranty is if you go that route.</p>

[dennis lee]

<p>Thanks John, will do.</p>