Shooting with profitability in mind, what's on your short list?

[laura_kamler]

<p >I did video (I do both) for a wedding Saturday. I watched the photographers from time to time,<br />waiting for a shot or as I was shooting tripod, I had a pretty laid back day in comparison. We had a great time working together, but I noticed something that got me wondering later. The lead (contracted shooter) had a checklist she was going by and I assume the second shooter was too. It got me thinking about profitability, processing time and shooting time. I know that most of us work with some kind of list, either in mind or in print. Then I wondered how many photographers shoot too much?<br /><br />Are we suggesting shots to our brides that they probably won't buy? Are we taking shots they never buy? Where is our profitability when we are mega shooting formals? <br /><br />I haven't shot anything (stills) so far that required an in-hand list; mostly smaller weddings with the bride wanting parents, grandparents, bridal party and large family shots then lots of couple shots and the standard fare. So I am wondering why some shoot the groom with one brother, then another brother, then the groom and the parents and one brother, then two brothers or the like. I can understand if there are blended families and maybe they don't get along so hot or there are multiple families who would like separate pics, but when not prompted by the couple do you shoot lots of separate stuff in your formals? What do you shoot that never gets purchased? Are you shooting with profitability in mind? What part of your day gives you a higher profit margin when considering number of shots taken?<br /><br />All chime in, I think this warrants thought,<br />Laura</p>

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[betty_lowrey]

<p>Honestly, I don't rely on selling shots afterwards, so I'm not thinking about profit when I shoot. I'm thinking about getting really fun shots, pretty shots, interesting shots, and shots that tell the story of the day.<br>

That's my job, to deliver a package telling the story.</p>

[nuzumphoto]

<p>This all depends on your base business model...are you shooting to sell photos or are you shooting to deliver photos. The digital negatives are included for every wedding we shoot.</p>

<p>So we shoot to please, not consider profitability.</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>There is a lot of redundant shooting going on and way too many exposures. This cost so much time, which is time that could be used to market new business. So yes, it costs money too!<br>

As an example, I photograph each immediate family and I'll also photograph the bride and groom with ALL the parents. These are all unique combinations. But, unless requested, I won't typically photograph the B&G with one set of parents, then add the children, then add the grandparents. It's just too many of the same and I've got a good feel about what gets purchased. It's a really simple process to figure this out.<br>

When you're shooting a wedding, you need to change your thought process. What you're actually doing is the first step in the album creation process. Think about how you'll be laying out the album and this will help you in your shooting process.<br>

What gets over shot more than anything? Candids and photjournalistic images for sure, but they tell the story and need a larger variety. There is also no control over the subject in candids and pj like there is with formals, so that makes for more shooting....Aimee</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I don't shoot with profitability in mind--at least the kind of profitability one can realize from shooting umpteen zillion combinations of people. I don't get profits from reprints or 'by the picture' anyway.</p>

<p>If you are talking about shooting in general, I shoot to tell the story first, and show the 'characters' in the story second. Third, if any of this can become art, I shoot for that. If you are talking about shooting formals, I stick to a pared down list of formals, and then add or subtract from that IF the couple tells me to. If they get crazy about the various sub groups, I do warn them about the amount of time needed. However, if they insist, I do it. We are, after all, serving our clients.</p>

[think27]

<p>Like Nadine - the story. The positive thing about 800 or so images is that the story becomes a larger album then the couple anticipated and higher reprint orders from multiple family members. The comments were always that they tried to keep the list of must haves for the album low but they just loved so many that they decided to go from a 24 to a 40- 50 or 60 page album... Profit..</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>This definitely warrants thought but I don't think many here actually shoot to maximize profits. I went through a studio training program several years ago that emphasized how to maximize reprint sales and picked up the pointers there. Savvy studio owners watch which images are key sellers and motivate their photographers to get all the story images but also to concentrate on the "bread & butter" pics. Studios that think along these lines also reward their shooters for producing a wedding with high reprint orders.</p>

<p>Today's "churn & burn" shooters likely don't know and don't care. Some PJ studios have a business model that allows them to get all the money upfront and may or may not even offer reprints. I think a really "gutsy" pricing strategy would be to shoot the wedding for free and then offer prints later. When I first began in the business, I shot for a national company doing high school reunions, we shot the event for free, gave the committee the books of the event photos along with the portraits and the company made their money with the portrait sales. Cruise ships shoot everyone for free (seems like about every chance they get) and make all their money on the pics that people decide to buy. Profit can be a good thing.</p>

[savagesax]

Often our studios make more off of reprint orders than the cost of the actual wedding. I really don't look at it as profits. My approach is art, something to put on a wall, as well as filling albums. We even offer quality framing, because prints really stand out with the right frames.

[kayumangi]

<p>As David implied, your business model will dictate your shooting style.</p>

<p>If you are after print-sale then you focus more on the formals and posed, because thats what most folks will buy and look for after the wedding.</p>

<p>If you are a PJ, you pretty much don't care about print sale, you are more concerned about the editorial / documentary images.</p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong><em>Generally:</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >At any individual Wedding, it is not the shots one captures (or not) which will or will not ultimately turn big profits, it is what one does or does not not do, prior, during and after. A business's Net Profit is not measured by one sale (one Wedding): each sale contributes individually, but each sale also contributes to the momentum of the business and thus the overall profit over the business’s life.</p>

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<p >Businesses can be one of three types: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >> self serve supermarket</p>

<p >> tailored to the customer </p>

<p >> a mixture of both</p>

<p > </p>

<p >The first type has the product on display and the customer chooses</p>

<p >The second type makes the made to measure suit – exclusive and individual</p>

<p >The third has the base template but can modify some things to suit – and to varying degrees</p>

<p > </p>

<p >It seems to me that many Prospects would view many of the Wedding Photographer’s Web sites which show three or four “Packages” as the first type of business: even if, in print somewhere “your special day” “individual attention” etc is mentioned. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think this has (is having) an impact on the customer’s general expectations, in that they expect this is the normal style of businesses Wedding Photographer have – more towards the supermarket style.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >If this premise is accepted as correct, and we discuss this topic generally, then I believe I could mount a reasonably sound economic argument that “Shooting with Profitability in Mind” is predominately a non issue for many Wedding Photography businesses, anyway. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >That stated: I have attended a course which I believe was similar to the one David mentioned, “How to Maximize Your Studio’s Print Sales”. Essentially it was about dissecting a Portrait Session, and then applying that logic to a Wedding (and other calls). There are snippets of those ideas and my adaptations of them on other threads, but - if you want the whole deal – do the course, there are plenty of them, and not all have a “photography” label on them. </p>

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<p >Most of these courses have a similar thrust and the first principles about having "Profitability in mind" are: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >> knowing who the customers are </p>

<p >> knowing what it is each of the customers is seeking to buy </p>

<p >> knowing what the business is, one is actually in </p>

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<p >I disagree that the business model will dictates a shooting style. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Rather the Photographic Style should be one element upon which the business model is structured to facilitate good economy and a sound functioning business. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >There is no intrinsic disconnection between having a “PJ" style and tolerating zero print sales.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >On the other hand a business which captures and the supplies a disc of files (or negatives), for a set fee and then does not have any further relationship with the client, could employ a Photographer with any type of "style". </p>

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<p > <br>

</p>

<p ><em >Specifically to your questions about shots:</em></p>

<p > </p>

<p ><strong ><em >“When not prompted by the couple do you shoot lots of separate stuff in your formals?”</em></strong></p>

<p >I do formals of the Wedding Party, for that I have a template. That template is made beforehand with the clients. I usually have a lot of input. I will take any other Formals they require, those too are planned – usually thes include the Mothers, Fathers and Grandparents. </p>

<p >The formals I take are usually on location, after the Ceremony, en route to the reception, but they can be in the Church too or instead. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >One of the reasons I am shooting their Wedding is for these formals, usually. That is “Style” having an influence on the “Business Model”</p>

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<p > </p>

<p ><strong ><em >“What do you shoot that never gets purchased?”</em></strong></p>

<p >When I shot for myself, I used film. There were no images in the Preview album (later at the viewing), which were not purchased by the client.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I now contract to a studio and sell all the files to the studio. I have done a few (Digital) Weddings like this for Private Clients – they too buy all the images. I charged an extra fee for the Post Production. <strong ><em > </em></strong></p>

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<p > </p>

<p ><strong ><em >Are you shooting with profitability in mind?</em></strong> </p>

<p >No. Never. Profit has all be taken care of well before the event, because I know:</p>

<p >who my customers are; </p>

<p >and I know what it is they are purchasing. </p>

<p ></p>

<p >All I have to do is deliver those goods and services. My sole “business” focus on the day is on delivering those two things, promptly and pleasantly and to the best of my ability. </p>

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<p ><strong ><em >What part of your day gives you a higher profit margin when considering number of shots taken?</em></strong></p>

<p >The question is irrelevant to my business model.</p>

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<p >WW</p>

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[john_ashby2]

<p>You're charging how many thousands of dollars just to show up, and then you're going to pass up pictures the couple might like to have just because you don't think they'll pay extra for it.

[aimee_pieters]

<p>John Ashby,<br>

We'd all like to hear how you go about it....-Aimee</p>

[john_ashby2]

<p>Aimee...</p>

<p>Hmm, let's see. Oh, that's right, I set a price that I can live with and then try to shoot every picture the client might want. Whether or not it's profitable never enters my mind when I'm out there shooting. That's all taken care of in the price to show up.</p>

[nuzumphoto]

<p>John is right. The reprint business is slipping as digital forms of story telling emerge. iPhones, iPods, and every other digital media house and display photos. People will want a few pictures printed, but now everybody just wants the digital images. You set the price up front so you make money regardless of the reprints. Our packages are built to allow us total freedom on a wedding day. To capture any and all images that tell the story of an entire day. You can never OVER tell a story in pictures. The more there is, the more detail in the story. For instance....I charge $5 for a story that I tell to the three little pigs about their big day....</p>

<p>The 3 pigs escaped the wolf...the end...that'll be $20 for each page you'd like to hear of the detail.</p>

<p>Today's bride wants digital and tomorrow's bride will demand it.</p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong><em>"John is right." </em></strong></p>

<p ></p>

<p >John [has] his opinion and [has] put forward a business model which he considers best suits his needs and the situation in question. </p>

[cathy_and_david_bock]

<p>As a photojournalistic approach to weddings we maybe give our clients 30-50 formals out of the 800 or so final images we give them. We use these images to create 100+ page albums for our clients. In the end the photos you take doesn't matter as you should be getting paid up front for the work you do instead of trying to think about what the client will or will not buy. For us, anything purchased afterwards is a bonus. We make sure we make what we need up front so that our mind is focused on the client and giving them the best possible product rather than focusing on trying to see which shot will make us a bunch of money on prints. This is the most important day in someone's life, every shot is just as important. </p>

[savagesax]

Telling a story isn't new. Far from it. Nor is story style weddings an excuse to get out of creating artistic images. Photographers have been doing this for many, many, years. The only difference is how many photos does it take to tell this story? Is there a correct answer to this? No way. Just like most books that tell stories. 150 pages may do it, yet a book like The Chesapeake took James A. Michener the auther, about 2000 to 3000 pages to tell his story. Also PJ style or traditional doesn't always tell the story of the wedding day.

 

Wedding photography should be an art form, so when the client wants a 40x60 framed print or a 5x7 to display somewhere, it remains something special to the client, therefore not offering reprints seems to me that the artist/photographer perhaps doesn't feel their work is deemed as excellence. It is my opinion many photographers are so proud of their work it merits signing the print. So we usually sign our enlargements, the clients have a choice and almost always they prefer a signature.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"You're charging how many thousands of dollars just to show up, and then you're going to pass up pictures the couple might like to have just because you don't think they'll pay extra for it. -John</em></p>

<p>There's no reason to pass up any shots. Shooting to maximize profits is additive, you're adding images and shooting more not less. While it may be true that reprint sales in general have been declining due to digital, shooting images that sell hasn't changed much over the past 15 years. To understand which images do sell takes some experience and study. Artistic shots are not on the list of top sellers, although fellow photographers may like 'em.....they may try to copy them but they rarely buy them.</p>

[john_ashby2]

<p>@David, I agree with you, but the original poster was suggesting skipping the chance to take shots they don't think will sell. To me that makes no sense. </p>

[mike dixon]

<p>The original poster asked about the wisdom of recommending formal groupings that no one is interested in buying. She didn't recommend leaving out shots that clients wanted because no one buys them. All of those extra shots keep the wedding party tied up with formal shots longer and add to their general fatigue. If no one is really interested in those photos, why take them?</p>

[mike dixon]

<p>I do think the tactic of deliberately and repeatedly misrepresenting what someone actually said so you can make personal insults qualifies as "vile." It's mean-spirited and dishonest.</p>

[think27]

<p>MODERATOR NOTE: Folks - there is no reason what so ever to call people or a group of people names...OR to respond to another poster's comments creating back and forth finger pointing and arguments.</p>

<p>As always we need to respect other people and their opinions here.</p>

<p>Thread has been edited in order to stay on point and personal attacks have been removed... Snarky comments have been removed as well. There is no room here for sarcasm... We can even disagree with respect. Please. </p>

<p>Please in future - email me if there is a thread heading for the dumps.</p>

[laura_kamler]

<p >WOW!!! I missed the action!</p>

<p >I think Mike made a lot of sense when he said:<br />"All of those extra shots keep the wedding party tied up with formal shots longer and add to their general fatigue." this is so true....<br /><br />...and he's right, I didn't recommend leaving shots out. I simply was trying to find some information from more seasoned still shooters to help me find a good balance. I don't mind the formal posed shots at all, but my observation got me wondering what was too much. <br /><br />Seeing things from both sides (as a photographer and as watching other photographers on occasion) I am acutely aware when a group that tires of getting pictures taken, especially in the heat we have here accompanied by humidity that is unbearable. <br /><br />I am seeking a wise balance between giving my couples a large number of photos to choose<br />from and driving them absolutely nuts. I want their group to be able to enjoy themselves so that those fantastic moments that can make for an emotionally charged photo come easily. I believe there is a fine line there somewhere. <br /><br />I also think some may have misunderstood my intention and took me too literally. I don't stand there and shoot with dollar signs in front of my eyes (imagine cartoon character shooter with dollar signs rolling in eyes-ching, ching). That is not my approach. I get personal satisfaction out of capturing those once in a life time moments and being able to bring those memories back time and again. However, one cannot pay bills on passion, if that was the case I would be rich. If you look at the very top of this game you will see many who shoot with "profitability in mind" and because they do they are able to find an outstanding balance and maintain the ultimate creativity...and their clients pay well for it. <br /><br />Thanks to everyone who gave his or her view, your time is appreciated.<br />Regards,<br />Laura</p>

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