Leica Forum: A Severe Case of the Flu

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Someone wrote it & stands by it whether a significant number of forum members like it or not.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Phil wrote it years ago and by the time I got around to running photo.net in 2006, I had mostly forgotten about it. Even when I did notice that it was still there, I didn't remember long enough to actually get it changed as it really was low on the list of important things to work on. But I've got the file pulled out of the database now and I'll screw with it after I get tomorrow's newsletter done.</p>

<p>But as we now spiraling down into "you stupid photo.net people killed what once was great", I don't predict much ouy of this thread going forward. Such is life.</p>

<p>Anyone who cares or has an idea can email me. Otherwise I'll leave this thread up to the mods to close or not as they see fit.</p>

[doug herr]

<p>I know several who have given up on the photo.net Leica & Rangefinders forum in disgust because of the trolls and the disrespect, negativity and hostility. Life's too short and there are too many pictures to be made to put up with that kind of stuff. I rarely participate any more for the same reason.</p>

<p>As <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=544169">Peter Shawhan</a> wrote, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."</p>

<p>I've had enough vinegar.<br>

 

 

 

<br />

 

 

</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Interesting thread. </p>

<p>I used to come here a lot. I now tend to frequent a few forums that don't insult you for liking a certain piece of equipment ... as if liking it made you a lousier photographer ... the opposite of "gear doesn't make the photographer" is that it doesn't unmake you one either.</p>

<p>One place I visit every day is a digital site ... at least it was started as a digital site. We asked for an analog section ... and in no time it was thriving ... introducing new users to film, driving some digital die-hards to try it ... some who then sell their digital cameras. Whole new explorations, new approaches, new young M owners ... with all kinds of questions for us long time Leica M users. So many M shots posted, we had to start a "shot on film" thread "using something other than a M" ... LOL!</p>

<p>IMO, this place became a viper pit chock full of mean spirited, relentless, and highly vocal people who were enabled by lame excuses revolving around being "feisty" and "independent spirits" ... it was a mental institution, and attempts at rational and well mannered discourse were about as successful as it'd be at a mental institution. If you stayed the course, you were in danger of becoming an inmate yourself. </p>

<p>This forum moved about as far from a bunch sitting around a pot belly stove discussing the wonders and quirks of Leica as you could get. IMO, someone has to set the tone and manner in the direction that benefits it members in general. It has to be based on mutual respect ... and enforced. Why do I believe this? Because every attempt at ruining other sites is snuffed out immediately ... and contrary to being heavy handed totalitarian wastelands, they are thriving hubs of wonderful discussions and incredible sources of information. If you really think everything has been done and said, then its time to hang up your spurs. Leica is "just a tool" is right in that respect. New ways of using it are swirling around all over the place. Just not here from the tone of this thread.<br>

Here, just like a lot of the answers posted in this thread ... it feels like a graveyard. But not one for Leica or for film. </p>

<p> </p>

[raymond_tai]

<p>Trolls, Leica haters, master baiters...we have those. But also Google works very well. I just got into LF and instead of mindlessly posting on various LF forums with their equvalents of 35mm or 50mm Summilux or Summicron posts I just googled and learned what I needed to know.<br>

Can't believe I have been hanging out here regularly since 1997! Time to get another hobby!</p>

 

[mike dixon]

<p>You want to know how to make the Leica forum a more-productive, more-interesting, and more-active forum? Here are three simple things to <strong>do</strong> and one simple thing to <strong>not do</strong> :</p>

<p>First, take a bit of responsibility for creating a better atmosphere. If everyone waits for everyone else to make things better, nothing improves.</p>

<p>Try to think of one interesting topic each month, one that invites discussion and participation, and start a thread about it.</p>

<p>Think twice about every post you make. Are you being helpful? civil? Are you trying to raise the level of discourse?</p>

<p>Don't take disagreement, critiques, or criticism personally. Yes, disagreement and critique can be productive, but only if people don't pitch a fit whenever they hear something they don't like. Even if you think someone is intentionally trolling, provide a calm, rational response to counter his claims (or, at the very least, ignore him).</p>

<p> </p>

[tom_higgins3]

<p>"I think it's the site itself. Too much heavy handed and unnecessary editing or deleting of people's posts for one thing. Photographers tend to be independent minded, and I am sure all of them on the site are adults, yet they're treated like children by some of the mods. After a while you say "who needs it"? I'll just search google or another photography forum for my info."</p>

<p>"The site <em>is</em> to blame. Some members & mods are to blame (one moderator deleted an entire thread of witty remarks because <em>he</em> didn't find them funny)"</p>

<p>"A period of heavy handed moderation didn't help. Many people left."</p>

<p>ultimately it is the moderators to blame, sorry, but thats how it strikes me. there seemed to be a concerted effort at one point to bring this forum "in line" with the rest of photo.net, whatever the cost. Theres always been trolls and naysayers on the lpf but they were usually drowned out by the level of general enthusiasm- Hell, its even going on in this thread -<br /> 'However, please don't get into a photo.net policy discussion here" <br /> "But I am NOT going to waste my time with "oh, PN was so stupid and did this" type of stuff"<br /><br /> - Or else what? the whole thread will be deleted? thats about normal Josh- the minute i saw the title i thought "rays wasting his time there, no way that thread'll be allowed to stand".</p>

<p>"While those who still bear ill will from past arguments or issues may not believe me, but PN has not "lost customers""</p>

<p>quite true- but the leica forum certainly has. I conciously stopped subscribing (other than posting pictures) along with quite a few others. It would have been a lot better had time been spent on actively weeding out the baiters and haters rather than trying to make this like one of the other gear forums. Still, what's done is done, I don't see how things can be improved. I'm off to the beach with my M8, see yiz on sunday.</p>

<p>p.s. If you want to kill it completely, just stop the W/NW threads, that'll be the coup de grace.</p>

<p>I should add this is in no way an attack on Josh Root personally- he contributes more than most- Moderation is a thankless task for the most part and i realize there has to be guidelines, they just seem to not work so well when applied universally. How can you have a discussion about whats wrong with a forum while not mentioning broader site policy? seems catch 22ey</p>

[mike dixon]

<blockquote>

<p>there seemed to be a concerted effort at one point to bring this forum "in line" with the rest of photo.net, whatever the cost. Theres always been trolls and naysayers on the lpf but they were usually drowned out by the level of general enthusiasm</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>In is a sense, you're right: at one point, the standard method of discourse on the Leica forum had sunk to the level of "inundate anyone who says anything critical with name-calling and personal insults," and the moderators did make a concerted effort to change that. The "general enthusiasm" wasn't for having positive discussions; it was for firing up the flamethrowers at every opportunity. And yes, a lot of people stopped posting when they realized that the Leica forum was no longer a free-for-all zone where they could spout venom every time someone said something they didn't like.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>How can you have a discussion about whats wrong with a forum while not mentioning broader site policy? seems catch 22ey</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Josh said there was no point in people bitching about <em>past</em> policies simply to lay blame for the forum's problems. If there are positive, helpful suggestions about what the site can do to improve the situation, I suspect Josh would be open to hearing them. Keep in mind, though, that there are not going to be policy changes that 1. prevent people from posting comments that other people don't like or 2. allow personal attacks if someone says something you don't like.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Sorry Mike, I don't buy it. I shoot a M8 and M7, and would love to participate in a dedicated Leica or rangefinder forum like this once was.</p>

<p>BUT ... </p>

<p>Trying to be productive ... yes of course.</p>

<p>Disagreement, critiques and criticism not taken personally? Hard to do when they are made personal to such a degree. Sorry Mike, calm and rational NEVER worked here. "Ignore them?" ... sure ... but p.net is a highly visited public forum, and your name smeared in diatribes that never seemed to end isn't my idea of something one would want publicly aired ... nor was that kind of experience fun or informative ... EVER.</p>

<p>I mean, come on, who on Earth wants to go some place where public ridicule is a real possibility and can result in one feeling unhappy? I don't want to have to thicken up my skin when having fun. I get enough of that from life in general, and from doing creative work for a living. Really not interested in some contest of wills and repartee'. </p>

<p>In fact, that's the core of the issue IMHO. Nothing has changed. You guys keep placing responsibility on the victims to control their emotional response ... when it's the perps that you should be prosecuting. Personally, I've never seen a forum so tolerant of ill mannered, even vicious people, and more critical of everyday Joes just sharing their love of something ... sometimes over exuberantly perhaps, but that's the "human nature" of really liking something ... and Leica's have always inspired passion.</p>

<p>In my experience, this forum became a cult of personality, with a few highly vocal "elitist in their own minds" the driving force that was allowed to ruin it for the general group. Tolerance based on what criteria? That they were better photographers than the general group? Who cares when it's emotionally ugly? Brilliance is tolerated when there is a profit motivating it. There's no profit here, except to share a love of something you do to express yourself ... each of us at our own level and in our own way. The world is littered with Brilliant, but nasty, people kicked to the curb when they are no longer profitable to others. I know this first hand from my line of work. </p>

<p>You reap what you sow ... and tumble weeds blowing through this forum seems to be the resulting crop. </p>

<p> </p>

[mike dixon]

<p>Marc, I actually agree with most of what you've said. But we can't go back in time and shut down the most-problematic users before they caused the damage (which would have required moderation far more "heavy-handed" that what some people currently blame for the forum's state). We have to go forward from where we are.</p>

<p>It's encouraging that the posts from the relative newcomers indicate they've actually gained something from the forum. I hope we can build on that.</p>

[l_]

Mike, there is nothing in my life I regret more than logging on to photo.net 2003.

 

 

The trolls have won, and worse. If my friends on the Leica forum have logged off, I lay the blame on photo.net's policy of supporting unquestioningly ID fraud in the community and copyright theft, even as trivial as it is today on a forum unfrequented by photographers as is photo.net today.

 

 

I still see my friends, now and again, I no longer see their work, good bad, or just charming as things used to be, I sometimes see a newcomer fairly discouraged at the outset, and I lay the blame on the frequent posters who make up the community of photo.net as it is today.

 

 

 

 

Leanne

[tom_higgins3]

<p>"a lot of people stopped posting when they realized that the Leica forum was no longer a free-for-all zone where they could spout venom every time someone said something they didn't like"</p>

<p>I don't necessarily agree with that mike, most of the people who made the forum worthwhile were not like that- i wont list them, but there's quite a few of them here, (and you're one of them)- nor am I gazing backwards wistfully at some halcyon days-like recollection of how things used to be. It just seems to me that to quite a large degree the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I genuinely have no idea how to make it better, other than maybe trying to foster that sense of community that was at one time a lot more apparent than now. Photos threads, print swaps (props to durr wise recently in that regard), and a generally lighter hearted approach to posting- (including some ribbing where appropriate) would seem to me to be a start. This is an internet forum, a thickness of skin would seem to be a minimum requirement. Hey, I always liked the idea of publishing a book of photos from the members here- it could be done like a photo competition/large print swap, and equal chance for everyone. I posted here with a canon 5d for about 2 years, as did ray i think (and several others no doubt)- it wasn't about the camera for me, more the approach and sharing things with people i'd consider to be peers.</p>

[tom_higgins3]

<p>And another thing- the M8 IS a great camera. just dont use it indoors for color work if someone's paying you- it renders black clothing in an astonishing array of colors. But so what- hasselblads are big and heavy :-p</p>

[alan_ginman]

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>" "because I'm very determined not to be feisty in wondering why a 5000 $ camera won't automatically take a great photo..."</p>

 

<p>You know, I though I had changed that. I'm still surprised at how annoyed Phil's lame attempt at humor made people.<br>

I'll look into changing it."<br>

Oooo, no, leave it. I think it's great! Lame? Not for me it isn't. I used to use Leica RFs for about 20 years before I went digital, but I think it's a great comment. And, deep down, maybe the sentiment expressed in the comment is the reason for the rudeness that used to be part of this forum.</p>

<p>Please, leave it. Please!</p>

<p>Regards</p>

<p>Alan</p>

 

</blockquote>

 

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>The subject matter that has been allowed, tolerated to be discussed without members going ballistic has varied through the decade.<br>

On the Greenspun board 10 years ago many of us liked discussions of our new found Ebay buys like Russian LTM lenses; older 1950's Non-Leica LTM lenses. Often there was this air of "get out of here"; this is about ONLY Leica lenses; and not the millions of non Leica LTM lenses and bodies.<br>

Thus The Russian camera groups on yahoo groups became a hang out for Russian LTM items. Hard core leica folks were hell bent on weeding out the ill non Leica discussions. Thus you were a jerk for mentioning the new Bessa R; or even a old Nikkor 5cm F2 LTM. This hostile slant with non Leica items existed even when the Greenspun board merged into Photo.net long ago.<br>

A poor newcomer once asked about a 5cm F2 LTM on the Nikon board; I posted some positive results and images. Then the thread got axed due to being off topic. Then the same begineer posted the same question on the Leica board; and got grilled by old farts about being not a Leica topic. This was before there was a classic section. Thus the poor beginner posted the question about the 5cm F2 Nikkor LTM in a non Nikon; non leica area and got minimum responses.<br>

Here my take on what the Leica forum is about is about Leica cameras and Lenses; and ALL Leica Thread mount lenses; and all camera bodies that will hold a LTM lens. Purists hate this philosophy.<br>

Thus early on if one had a discussion about using a Canon 50mm F1.2 LTM as a poor mans Noctilux; the wrath of the old farts set in; one has commited a sin; talking about a non-Leica lens that one wants to use on a M3; Bessa R or Zorki 3C. The whole point seems abit silly; the majority of LTM lenses made are not by Leica. About every camera maker made LTM lenses at one time; and the "body of knowledge" of the quality or lack of is going to be with Leica and Leica clone users; NOT a chap that ONLY has used a Nikon F; TLR; LF; etc.</p>

<p>The old beat up Leica M3 here was bought as a user; it has a retired guys SS number on the bottom that I bought it from. It was only a few hundred bucks because it is NOT what a collector craves; ie a hanger queen show piece. This concept goes against the grain of leica collectors; buying value in a tool because of its cosmetic "defects".</p>

<p>The Leica are has always been a stange area; somebody will own a new Leica news. Then notice a speck of lint 2 months later on the optics. Folks will ask others if it is a huge issue; and will not shoot a few images. What bothers a hard core Leica user is often magnified by a zillion times. Thus a BB glued on a Leica train will drop its gas mileage by 30 percent.:)</p>

<p>In doing research on a possible LTM lens purchase recently; I find more action on other sites; and find other folks who once hung on here too. I am not sure if those folsk were banned; or just gave up.</p>

<p>The same old fart being grumpy factor happens on amateur radio sites too. A beginner might just need a 250 buck used Icom 735 as a starter rig. Purists will quickly steer the poor beginner into a 3 grand TenTec with 2 grand Linear and a antenna that requires several yards of concrete.<br>

The same thing happens somewhat with the LF board. A beginner might only need a 200 buck 4x5 speed graphic and 127mm Ektar to get ones hand wet; other folks will quickly steer the newcomer inot a 4 grand Ebony body and a lens that costs 2 grand. Alot of this activity of recommending starter equipment that costs 5 grand is a major turnoff for a newcomer. Its is like all the old farts forgot they started with lower cost gear; and then they preach all this super expensive stuff as a must have for a newcomer.</p>

 

[Ian Taylor]

<p>Hasn't been the same since Grant et al left.<br>

Those guys posted so much good work.</p>

[l_]

<p>Oh , hello Ian :)</p>

<p>Grant et al shoot digital now.</p>

<p>If the Leica forum were not allowed to perv over their equipment in peace then who is surprised at the low show of Leica users nowadays?</p>

<p>Missing their warmth, enthusiasm for all things photographic etc.</p>

[vivek iyer]

<blockquote>

<p>Missing their warmth, enthusiasm for all things photographic etc.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yup!</p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Or else what? the whole thread will be deleted?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No Tom. Just what I said, <strong>I'm</strong> not going to waste <strong>my</strong> time with "oh PN is so stupid" kind of stuff. I said I would leave it up to Tony and Mike if they wanted to leave this thread open or not. Personally, I don't see anything useful coming out of it at this point. People just want to rehash arguments from years ago rather than try to think about moving forward.</p>

<p>And so, there are 19,000+ other forum posts a week on photo.net that aren't in the Leica forum that have members who are interested in what features and support I can give them and projects they might want to be interested in. Mention a contest or a project to the Digital Darkroom or Wedding folks and they are all excited and want to know what they can do to make it happen. Mention that here, and exactly zero people have bothered to email and say "here's what I think we should do" or "what can I do to help" or even "get rid of tony/mike and go f---k yourself". That says a lot.</p>

<p>Everyone wants to throw stones at the site and the moderators without thinking about what they are asking or what the results will be. We've got a pile of people in this thread saying "too many jerks and mean posts make the forum awful, delete them" and another pile of people saying "there is too much moderation and that is awful, let people act however they want". It doesn't work both ways. Some people hate too strong of moderation (a vocal, but often passionate and interesting, minority in terms of user numbers) but free-for-alls ALWAYS fail (witness every "screw photo.net, we're making our own forum with no moderation or rules" forum ever tried). So we're left with:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"People leave the forum because of too many jerks. Posts shouldn't be deleted if they are negative or attacking leica or other photographers. However, if the user making the attacking post has a secret 'badge of acceptance' then they can make those posts and they shouldn't be deleted because we're all adults here and can handle stuff like this and too much moderation makes people leave the forum."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And that is an impossible game to win at.</p>

[ray .]

<p>It's hard to specify to what degree forum moderation / policies have influenced things (I do think ending the ads is an easy example of shooting yourself in the foot), but ultimately the forum is made up of the people who post here. We've had too few Travis's (combination of great photographic talent and upbeat personality), Andy Pipers and Rob F.'s (knowledgeable adults) and too many trolls who contribute negative energy by making a sport out of baiting people. That's the bottom line as I see it.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>Ray,</p>

<p>If you added in the overall contraction of film photography and its effect on film based forums, I would tend to agree with you.</p>

[kens]

<p><i>"People leave the forum because of too many jerks. Posts shouldn't be deleted if they are negative or attacking leica or other photographers. However, if the user making the attacking post has a secret 'badge of acceptance' then they can make those posts and they shouldn't be deleted because we're all adults here and can handle stuff like this and too much moderation makes people leave the forum."</i><br>

YES! FINALLY - THAT'S IT!!! Please do that. Except for the Secret Badge part. :-)<br>

Seriously you guys have an impossible job of herding a diverse bunch of passionate cats. But if there's one single thing that I think throws everything else off balance it's the name-calling. In my opinion that is the one type of bad behavior that deserves heavier handed moderation. Zero tolerance. And I've heard in the past of reluctance to surgically cut posts because doing so destroys the continuity of the thread. Personally I say screw the continuity if it means allowing name-calling to persist. I may be Polly-Anna but I think most other things would take care of themselves if this problem could be addressed. </p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>Hey Josh, do please change that stuff about feisty guys and $5000 cameras. It's the sort of joke that makes you feel embarrassed for the teller. </p>

[joshroot]

<p>Alex, I'm doing it. It's just not as simple as you'd think due to the "hover" stuff on the page.</p>

[blakley]

<p>It's easy to blame the fall-off in posts on past personality issues or moderation, but I'm not so sure. All the forums I visit that focus on Leica have tapered off in the past year too; it's not just the Leica forum here. The decline of film might be one reason; another reason might be that everyone got used to the M8 and arguing about it stopped being fun. The phenomenon seems to be real though.</p>

<p>Ian hit a nail on the head with lamenting Grant's departure. I think of "the Grant era" as the sort of high point of the forum, despite a lot of bickering. Grant and a lot of other prickly personalities made the place interesting because (in addition to being "feisty") they had distinctive visual styles and were also very knowledgeable. But things change; people get busy, lose interest, and move on.</p>

<p>What to do? I don't know - wait for Leica to release an M9, and post some pictures in the meantime doesn't sound like a recipe for a quick resurrection, but realistically other approaches are probably a lot of work on someone's part.</p>

[akochanowski]

<p>The problem isn't that someone like Grant is gone. This place used to be interesting because it was fun to have a forum that indulged divergent points of view and which tolerated people who straddled the boundary between normal and sociopathic. I enjoyed nuts like Jay, Al, Kevin M as well as normal, knowledgeable photographers like Marc. It was fun having collectors like Elliott B, German aristocrats proclaiming the superiority of Leica caps, and the occasional pro who produced nice work with an old M6. After all, there are only so many threads comparing one 35mm lens to another that anyone could conceivably find useful. What was noticeable about two years ago was an uneven enforcement of forum rules, doing nothing to discourage some posters from piling into participants over and over again, while banning others for reacting to the piling on. Whereas a few years back there were occasional very good photographers who contributed to the visual richness of the forum, I think they came, saw and left, while thread after thread droning on how much the M8 sucked and how real photographers don't need Leicas stayed on and on and on.... You can't put the genie back in the bottle.</p>