"Newbies" - Advice from a photogapher

[aimee_pieters]

<p>Dear "Newbies",<br>

There are so many educational opportunities out there that you can take advantage of. If you live in a remote community, there are even webinars now, so you don't even have to travel in many cases. Check out PPA, WPPI and your state and/or local associations. Search the internet for traveling seminars. There are also full-week schools all year long where you can learn from a great photographer and photograph live models for your portfolio as well.<br>

A wedding is a once-in-a-lifetime event and there probably isn't a seasoned professional out there who doesn't encounter a unique situation at almost every event. I personally don't think that someone's wedding is the place to practice, build your porfolio and learn at their expense and then justifying it by "I'm not going to make a profit". It just not fair to them.<br>

As a newcomer, I encourage you to learn and prepare. It's not only about photographic skills, equipment and posing & lighting. It's about family dynamics, anticipation of the events and just knowing weddings and how to handle equipment issues, etc.<br>

When you're comfortable charging a reasonable fee, then you're ready to photograph a wedding...-Aimee</p>

[jon rennie]

<p>On the other hand, there is going to be those couples who just don't have the budget for a photographer or are only willing to spend up to $500 for the day. Everyone knows they are out there, and some of those actually specifically seek out up and comers, students, etc... They simply can't have a pro there because of money. Sometimes to them, someone building their skills is better then uncle bob (who will still be taking pictures, trust me).</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>I bet they have the budget for the bar. <br>

Seriously though, regardless of the level of experience, there's no substitute for education. While you can learn from a forum like this, there's so many educational opportunities available today that going out "cold" just isn't fair to the couple...-Aimee</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Aimee -</p>

<p>There's going out "cold" and going out "cold"... One may be acceptable if the bride and groom are aware of the fact that their wedding is one of your "firsts"... The other "Cold" is not acceptable under any circumstance. If you don't know your equipment, then you shouldn't be going out and doing any paying gig - whether a wedding, sporting event, or anything. </p>

<p>You're right - there are tons of educational opportunities out there... But there are many schools of thought on the value of "book learning" verus On-Job-Training. As you point out even pros who shoot a wedding or 2 every week encounter something new almost every time out. I know I do.</p>

<p>As you state - it's not just about photographic skills - Lighting, Equipment, Posing...(which all to me are table stakes - you don't know those, you shouldn't have a seat at the table). The workshops I've seen / been to each you the table stakes... how to pose, how to light, what an f-stop is, how to meter for a black tux and white dress, etc... </p>

<p>As you said, it's more about family dynamics, working with people, and knowing the order of events at the ceremony. It's also about dealing with difficult people who are in a high stress situation. Last time I checked - getting married was in the top 5 of stressfull events in most people's lives.</p>

<p>Unfortunately - those are the types of things that seminars, workshops, and education in general can only take so far. Even if the seminar / workshop has a live model or does role playing, it's only an act. The model knows that they're there for a day to put on a wedding dress and pose. They aren't stressed, because they are going to get paid no matter what. Stress is when it's your wedding day and the church is supposed to be open and it's not. Stress is when the memory card you're using flashes ERR and you can't reset the camera... Stress is when the groomsman or best man decides to take a swing at the guy from the bar that's hitting on one of the bridesmaids.... That's stress. And the only way you learn to deal with those situations is to live them....</p>

<p>As for building a portfoilo - we all had to start someplace... If the live model is available then great...Otherwise - be upfront and honest about your skills and experience with the bride and groom. Again - the classes / books / teaching won't get you the real deal... and I guarantee that very few brides / grooms look anything like the "models", much less know how to pose like them.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[jimmckinnon]

<blockquote>

<p>I bet they have the budget for the bar.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Nice world you live in, Aimee! </p>

<p>In the world I'm stuck in, there are couples who have no budget for bar, photographer, DJ (need I go on?). These are genuinely couples who would not have decent photo's of their wedding if someone did not volunteer, and this volunteer is not necessarily going to be a professional who is willing to give up time when he could be making money.</p>

<p>I don't mean to take anything away from the idea that one should have studied hard and practiced (a lot!) before even being a volunteer under these circumstances. And you give many good and valid suggestions for places to seek out knowledge.</p>

<p>I do, however, maintain that situations exist where there might not otherwise be any photos for the couple to remember their day by, and a fledgling wedding photographer is within reason to seek out these situations -giving gratis service in exchange for experience - as one means of getting started. This, along with volunteering to be a 'second' or 'assistant' to a genuine pro. The beginner should always make certain that the couple is aware of his/her level of expertise, and make no promises he/she can't keep.</p>

[jon rennie]

<p>Sure they can have a budget for the bar, but each couple has their own priorities. As much as we don't like to admit it, not every couple has photography at the top of their priorities when it comes to their wedding. There is a photographer for every brides budget.<br /> If a couple has the choice of no photographer and a photographer who has no experience but pretty good with a camera who is willing to shoot it for free, you bet they will go with the free option.<br>

The first two weddings I shot (or even attended) I did for free or for very little compensation. They were both for family members who had no budget for a wedding photographer. Without me offering my services to them they would have never had great pictures. There was a huge unknown on how well I would do. Sure I was in 1st year of university for photography, but it was a fine art school and gave me almost no preparation for a wedding.<br>

<br /> Second shooting and assissting are probably the two best ways to get into the business, but let us not forget those brides who are willing to take a chance with someone who has never proved themselves. Regardless of whether they are unable or just unwilling to pay for a proven photographer. There is, and always will be a place for these freebie offering photographers. There will be those who fail and fail miserably and those who also perform beyond expectations. The only recommendation I have is that both parties are upfront about the experience/expectations ahead of time so not to disappoint or mislead anybody.<br>

<br /> Education is a valuable tool, but lets not forget those who are self taught. There are many of us who are considered self taught and are quite good (not just in the field of photography). There isn't one right answer here. The only thing that should happen is when starting out be honest of your experience, don't mislead the b&g. If they are OK with having an untested photographer shoot their wedding that is their right. I for one am not worried about them hurting my business because my clients come to me for my style, personality, and experience and are willing to pay for that. There is no best path for the newbie wedding photographers of the world, each of us learns differently. I for one am glad I jumped into the deep end shooting my first wedding (also the first one I have ever attended) solo.<br>

<br /> Aimee (if that is even your real name), you seem to be dead set in your opinions regarding the issues you bring up on photo.net from what I have noticed. I just encourage you to be a little more open to others opinions and know that there are more than one way (your way) to skin a cat. You talk with such authority but hide behind what I can only assume is a pen name.</p>

 

[daverhaas]

<p>I didn't even go there on the price / budget issue on my orginal answer ... I deal with clients that don't have mom's or dad's credit card / check book.</p>

<p>90% of my clients pay for their own wedding. 80% of my brides / grooms already have children of their own. Most have been impacted in some way or another by the current economy.</p>

<p>I have one potential client now who just had to take a pay cut... Another just went back to work after a maternity leave... They have to buget and prioritize what they spend on.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[aimee_pieters]

<p>Attending a "hands-on" workshop isn't "book learning", it's great, practical experience. It's a great way to learn a skill under the supervision of a trained professional. Is there anyone who doesn't think it's a better way to learn than doing it on your own on a wedding day with NO supervision?<br>

Those of you with lots of experience will confirm this, and those who are newcomers will learn this, but there are more complaints about wedding photography that deal with photos being missed than poor quality photography. Today's cameras can be set to produce an acceptable quality image automatically almost every time. As much as posing, lighting and knowing your equipment are vitally important, knowing what to photograph and when it's coming is key.<br>

The point I'm trying to convey is becoming clouded here. It appears that some of you feel that you're providing a service for the couple who doesn't have a budget. My comment about the bar was intended to show you that we all find money for what's important to us. Better to have an experienced photographer for 2-4 hours than an inexperienced one for 8-10.<br>

Regardless of how upfront you are and how much the bride and groom are aware and will be thankful for your efforts and be happy with whatever you deliver; it's just not like that when you don't deliver up to their expectations. It's easy to not have a priority with photography before the wedding, but it becomes a huge priority afterwards. It's all that's left......-Aimee </p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>My comment about the bar was intended to show you that we all find money for what's important to us. Better to have an experienced photographer for 2-4 hours than an inexperienced one for 8-10.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Not if the photography isn't important to someone.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>It's all that's left.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Many, maybe most, people would say that their marriage and each other (assuming they aren't divorced) is what's left. Many people value memories also, with or without photographs. It seems you've made assumptions that what matters to a photographer is what matters to everyone who gets married.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Aimee -</p>

<p>I got the point...my point is that no two weddings are exactly the same. While there are some similarities between them...No two are identical... Things happen differently, ministers / admins are different, brides different, grooms different, etc...</p>

<p>Example: I recently shot 2 weddings in the same chapel. Different couple, different minister, different outcome of the photos... What was different? The placement of the unity candle and the fact that the bride decided at the last moment (without telling me) that she was going to have the maid of honor and the best man stand at the alter... Also the minister at this wedding told me in no un certain terms - find a spot and stay there for the duration of the ceremony. Don't move. No negotiation. </p>

<p>What happened is that all of the lighting of the unity candle photos only show the bride - not the groom.</p>

<p>Don't know of any seminar that would have taught me how to deal with that.... Now I know. School of hard knocks.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[jimmckinnon]

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<p>It's easy to not have a priority with photography before the wedding, but it becomes a huge priority afterwards.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Not always! I know you've seen this forum, Aimee, because you responded:<br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00T4FB">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00T4FB</a></p>

[jon rennie]

<p>You can't compare photography to the bar and finding money for things like that and not photography. B&G's focus may be on entertainment for the guests rather then keepsakes for themselves. Food, bar, DJ are all expenses that are for entertaining the guests more then anything else. Photography on the other hand is mostly for the B&G and the closest family.The bar and food are huge expenses but those are there mostly for the guests and their entertainment. Photography is mostly for the B&G and closest family.<br>

Sounds like your message isn't directed to newbies, but to future B&G's. As much as we would like them to have photography their priority we can't change it. It is their day and they will dictate to us what is most important and we will do the best we can.</p>

[steve_carless]

<p>You get what you pay for. There have always been shoot and burn amateurs, even before digital.</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>Jeff,<br>

I'm the first to recognize that photography isn't a priority to everyone, but it's more of a priority afterwards when there's disappointment. Have you ever dealt with an a couple who's truly disappointed and it's justified? I used to manage a large studio and had to on occasion and maybe that's why I'm so concerned about this.<br>

David,<br>

Yes, there's a new situation every day, but aren't you better prepared to deal with them as time goes on? </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Aimee -<br>

Yes - I am now better prepared then I was before the wedding for that situation and if it happens again I'll know how to deal with it. I'll get the photos I need, even if it means having to drop and do 20 pushups (the chaplin performing the service has U.S. Army). My point still is - that no amount of seminars or webinars or training could have predicted that situation. </p>

<p>Jon - Yes - re-reading Aimee's Org. Post - it is more aimed at brides / grooms etc.. than photographers. And yes there were fly by night outfits before digital.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[think27]

<p>I agree that is is risky "sometimes" and inadvisable 'sometimes" for someone to learn how to shoot wedding photography for a couple that could/should/are able afford a photographer. I also think it is dangerous and bad for everyone when an inexperienced photographer bites off more than they should and charges too much money and screws up.</p>

<p>However, we've all seen many cases here as well as personally know couples that either can't afford (truly) and/or don't have photography as thier priortity. As long as everyone is upfront and honest, I don't have a problem with it and it will always be occurring in this industry. </p>

<p>We all started somewhere and frankly, some of us didn't start by going to schools and seminars. Thank god for forums like this. Places like photo.net can help the friend, relative or aspiring photographer who's been asked to go out on a limb and shoot photos because without them there would only be point and shoot images or little disposables... and we know how bad those can be.<br>

I will also say that I've seen some totally new photographers do as good and sometimes better than a few seasoned 'schooled' pros.<br>

17 years ago - I shot my first wedding. I had 'assisted" with about 8 weddings only. Some of the shots from that first wedding ended up in the Wedding Suppliment of the newspaper and one was the cover - 4 years later...<br>

I was a struggling single mom with no child support and a full time job. No time nor money for seminars. I used Photo.net and my mentor. I encourage all newcomers to come here and ask away. Photo.net's philosophy for helping other photographers is all inclusive.<br>

That's not to say that we should strongly caution the newcomer! The advice I think we should give is what Aimee says - but - also the other great advice that people give here before shooting the first one (practice as it may be).</p>

 

[jkiffmeyer]

<p>I think Aimee's advice is excellent, and she doesn't need me to say so, she knows it is excellent advice. I also assume she knows there are exceptions to every good rule, and it isn't her job to give the exceptions. I assume she breaks composition rules in her photography when it is necessary. (I'll accept that shooting a wedding without prior experience is a "bigger" rule, but hopefully you get the point) The point is that a person needs to know the rule before breaking it.</p>

<p>New photographers need to know the "rule" that Aimee is advising here. If they break it and shoot on their own without good experience, it is up to them to know that breaking the rule is the right thing to do in their circumstance. I would consider my own situation as a prime example. A girl in my church is getting married in July. Her mom was going to shoot the wedding with a P&S. She asked a second shooter for a local wedding photographer first, and she said no. She cannot afford any photographer. She is having no bar, no meal, no fancy flowers, no limo, etc. So I'm doing it as a gift to her and a learning experience for myself and am educating myself to the best of my ability. She does know that I am breaking the "rule" and she has stated that she accepts this. I cannot second shoot, I cannot attend a conference. I can learn from the wedding photographers here and be a better photographer at this wedding than I would have otherwise. For that I greatly thank all those here, including Aimee who have been so willing to share their knowledge and experience.</p>

<p>Living in Northern Wisconsin I see a lot of things people in big towns don't see. We just received a wedding invitation for some dear friends last Friday - it was a postcard. Tacky as heck... :D They are having the wedding at a sportsman club, and a friend is shooting the wedding. (Lucky for her she had a professional wedding photographer as a friend who will shoot for free, but she said is that fell through I would be asked next)</p>

<p>If I were to give advice to anyone wanting to be a wedding photographer I would give them the same advice or "rule" that Aimee is giving. And if they broke that rule I would tell them they better know the reason why and be able to break that rule with a clear conscience, because what they are messing with is serious business. You break the rule of composition and your photograph either is better or not. You mess up someones wedding photos and you will regret it for an awful long time. Coming from someone her comments were directed at, thanks for making that "rule" very clear Aimee, it needs to be said. I hope you accept that there are times to break the rule, but my reason for posting is to simply agree with you.</p>

<p> </p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>Unfortunately many people have to make decisions their whole lives based on budget. Many people simply can't afford the luxuries that others take for granted and others simply don't care for those luxuries. Personaly I think with the pressure on young couples these day to put on big show for their wedding day the ones that sit back and add up what they can really afford should be applauded. I would rather see a young couple ask a friend or family member to help them out than see them take on another dept.</p>

<p>Most people who have photography as a hobby at some time or another will be asked by a family member or friend to shoot some wedding pictures. As long as all parties involved are aware of the persons experience or lack of it there should not really be any problems. Sure some may wish they could have afored a proffesional and are aware their wedding pictures are not as good as they could have been but they also know the financial situation they were in at the time. Really these photographers need all the help they can get to enable them to do the best job they can.</p>

<p>Now I feel that what Aimee was really concernced about was the photographers that are setting up websites promoting themselves as photographers but have very little experience in photography. Now they maybe being upfront with brides about having little or no experience in shooting weddings but most brides do assume that the person knows something about general photography. The brides do assume that the person knows how to use their camera they do assume that the person will know how to use their flash and they assume that the photographs will be well exposed and sharp. All the general photography stuff should be second nature long before a website is made and agreements are made with couple about photography in exchange for experience. Now that is a big difference from helping a family member or friend.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Many, maybe most, people would say that their marriage and each other (assuming they aren't divorced) is what's left. Many people value memories also, with or without photographs. It seems you've made assumptions that what matters to a photographer is what matters to everyone who gets married.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Up to around 1920 people happily got married without any thoughts of documenting their wedding in pictures. This is a modern practice which may or may not be important to individual brides and grooms.</p>

<p> </p>

[brittanyrae]

<p>I'm a newbie. Went to art school and have attended courses/NEIPP/webinars etc and I've worked as a product photog for 2 years now (I also did a brief stint at a mall chain photo place, not my best experience as a photog but definately learned about pressure and nagging parents). I've also shot one wedding on my own and one where we restaged the entire wedding because they hated their experienced photographer - he never moved for each event, feet planted in one spot during the ceremony, 1st dance etc.<br>

I'll admit there is no better experience than 2nd shooting/assisting. My problem is, and I'm sure a lot of newbies as well, I've litterally gone through my states PPA and emailed/called every single photographer in my area including some that are 3-4 hours away from me inquiring about 2nd shooting. I've even offered to 2nd shoot for FREE to get some experience. My area is small and I can't find a single photographer who doesn't already have a list of 2nd shooters with more experience that they'd rather use. It's always that catch 22 with getting a job but requiring experience.<br>

So my dilema is I can be one of those newbies out there trying my best or I can sit idle for who knows how long and keep bugging local established photogs and hope something opens up. I've decided to keep plugging ahead on my own and always upfront about my experience and I have a lot of e-sessions & family shoots lined up to help me with posing and family situations.<br>

That being said... Anyone in anywhere New England need a 2nd shooter :)</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>I fully understand that there are exceptions to every situation. I'm not judging the subjects here at all. We all have our priorities and make our own choices; that's one of the great things about living in a free country.<br>

As a former studio manager of a wedding photography "factory" (prior to owning my own studio), it can be heartbreaking dealing with a couple who is disappointed with their photographs. Sometimes they are innocent "victims" of a studio hiring an inexperienced photographer or an unknown equipment failure. Remember, cameras didn't always have a digital screen on the back to check exposures. It was often several days later that you would find out about an equipment problem.<br>

I'm just letting the newbies know that they really need to be serious about what they're undertaking. I see posts from photographers going out to do a wedding in a few days who have never used a flash. Some have never photographed in low light such as a church. Some have no idea of what might be important to the couple. Just like the calls we get from people looking for a portrait or wedding photographer who have no idea what to ask. Some of the posts on this forum are from hobbyists or non-wedding photographers who don't even know what to ask.<br>

My purpose in posting this was to let everyone know that this is serious business and to be prepared even if the couple needs or wants to keep the budget low. That doesn't make it a free license to experiment; it hurts us all....-Aimee</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>Brittany - I'd hardly call you a newbie. You've gotten your feet wet more than once, attended NEIPP and had a number of different experiences. It seems to me that you're at the point where you should be moving ahead on your own. Aside from your experience, you truly seem to care and that's something that you can't be taught.<br>

Study as many full sets of wedding images as you can so you can understand what's important and what's not. Also study as many finished wedding albums so you can see what people select as that's equally important.<br>

Talk to couples, scope out your locations ahead, speak to clergy about what they allow and do the same with reception management. Be confident in yourself and don't lose your spark....-Aimee</p>

[chris_whitcomb1]

<p>This was posted on my local <a href="http://southbend.craigslist.org/crs/1126227642.html">craigslist</a> :</p>

<p><strong><em>I've got a brand new camera but haven't even taken it out of the box. I really want to get into the wedding photography business because I see some many people getting married and it looks like easy money. I can't guarantee that even one photo will turn out looking good but I sure will try. <br /> <br /> I don't have insurance, flashes, extra batteries, or even more than a kit lens that came in the box. If something goes wrong, you're out of luck. To keep things cheap for you, I won't even back up any of your images. Less cost for me means less cost for you. Just passing the savings on. <br /> <br /> Please trust me to do your wedding. I'll do it cheap, half off, just to build up my portfolio. <br /> <br /> I will only charge you $200. This is a deal. My camera cost me $700 brand new. <br /> <br /> I don't even own a computer. The memory card of images, should they turn out will be taken to a Wal-Mart Picture station and prints will be made directly from the card. I add glow and selective color to all of my images, giving them the best look possible. No need to hassle with computer programs. <br /> <br /> I own a good camera therefore I can take photos like the pros, who charge alot more. <br /> <br /> Think about it: Pros charge alot of money because they have alot of expenses. I don't. <br /> Pros have <br /> - multiple cameras <br /> -thousands of dollars in lenses and flashes <br /> -hard drives to back up the images <br /> -insurance <br /> -experience <br /> -people skills <br /> -color calibrated monitors <br /> - Business licenses <br /> <br /> I have none of this stuff so we'll keep it cheap, just for you!</em> </strong></p>

<p>I know this has to be a spoof (I sure hope so) but I think this is the kind of "photographer" Aimee was talking about.</p>

[peter_ferling]

<p>Not sure if this has been already covered, however, just like budget strapped clients, we also have budget strapped photographers. There was an article in the paper about recently divorced couples not even having the money to completely seperate, and so they share the same residence just to live. Priorities change. There was a time when it mattered to one whom was a "have" vs. a "have not". The current economy has reset a lot of minds of where priorities are. They don't care what the 'Jones' are doing, or think anymore. In fact I think it's now reverse. Big spenders are now singled out or frowned upon.<br>

The fact is, if a newbie is a little green around the edges, at least he or she has better gear and skils than 'uncle joe'. It's just one more issue resolved amoungst the thirty other things needed.</p>

[un_soon_choi]

<p>Chris,<br>

That photographer looks <i>VERY VERY</i> untrustworthy and unworthy. (not even taken out of the box!, and 700 dollar camera brand new? It must've been a first DSLR... A newbie who charges 200 dollars. Wow... For me, even the minimum wage seems too much. (He gets an opportunity to take pictures. Think of a museum.) (I am not even sure I should call the person a photographer. It looks like he/she's a gold digger of some sort, assuming from the person's words "easy money.") From Aimee, I get an impression that the photographers Aimee is talking about are <i>MORE</i> like volunteers, not those who seek money for the sake of money itself. </p>