jim_chinn1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I have recently read the article in the latest edition of View Camera by George DeWolfe, "Piezography Quadtone Printmaking and the Future of Black-and-White Photography: One Man's View". I will ask a couple of questions based on the assumption that most people who contribute to this forum have read or will read the above mentioned article. <p> 1. Mr. DeWolfe states that, "the combination of scanned high quality black-and-white negatives and prints, a dependable driver, a high resolution printer driver, the Piezography BW Quadtone Inkset and archival papers have enabled us to produce prints from an inkjet printer of higher quality than we traditionaly produced with silver and platinum media". I have only seen such prints reproduced in magazines. Has anyone on this forum seen such prints and if so, give an objective comparison to silver or platinum. 2. I am fairly literate about the components used in his specific workflow to output a print. My question to anyone who has experience with the hardware and software, what is the cost for these components minus the computer? I have been working with 4x5 and 8x10 for several years and while I enjoy the darkroom, I have no qualms about migrating to just shooting and processing film and going digital for prints. I know these issues have been discussed before, but in light of this article and recent articles about Huntington Witherill using medium format negs and digitally "remastering" them into 16x20 contact negs maybe there is some fresh insight from the group that will help me and others to decide if and when to make the jump. Thanks for any and all responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_smith Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I have seem some excellent prints from the Cone system but they were lacking in deep blacks & brilliant whites in comparison to traditional fine silver prints. The prints themselves were very nice but the limited range I saw would keep me from it at this time. I think the digital print is coming on strong but the marketers pushing "just as good as" ideas are off the mark. I don't want 'just as good as', I want better or a medium that will stand on its own. Right now digital B&W is not one or the other. It has marvelous promise for the future & that is arriving fast. But I still prefer traditional silver as in so many ways it is not so limiting. <p> As for service, claims are made constantly that remind me of the carney pitchman. Went into one of the better known digital suppliers pushing B&W inkjet, Giclee, etc. Started asking questions on density range, life expectancy, etc. of the 'expert' (as he was presented by both the staff & webpage). Got a great answer: "I am a webmaster, not a photographer"... with the attendant nose in the air & the exasperated sigh as he had to deal with another grubby photographer who just doesn't understand. <p> If and when digital prints match the full brilliance of fine B&W I will be more interested. Then when the printing life expectancy is really found to be holding up without the damnable surprises (just like we get from RC papers) I will be even more interested. Until then it is really nice but not what I want to present to buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilhelm Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Why would you assume that I have read the article. Where is it to be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_krentz Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Very good Dan, I agree with you 100%. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_jordan3 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jim, I've had some experience with quadtone printing, and a lot of experience with Photoshop. Here are my thoughts. <p> Clearly, digital printing is the wave of the future. In the last five years the jumps in technology have been astounding--similar to the technology jumps that happen in wartime--and the reason is that digital photographic printing is a billion-dollar industry being supported by huge dollars in R&D by many world-class companies like Epson and Kodak and Fuji. <p> So, even if the chemistry v. digital print quality considerations at this point are controversial, it is very likely that digital printing will surpass B&W darkroom printing very soon in every aspect. The quadtone prints I've made have been totally amazing, except in the blacks-- that's the last major hurdle, and with the new papers out there, this problem is being solved as we speak. And, those issues aside, as a darkroom printer-turned-digital-printer, I can tell you that Photoshop gives you creative control over your prints in a way that darkroom printers only dream about. <p> For example, imagine being able to control contrast locally over every square centimeter of your print. Increase contrast here by 10%, here by 12%, in this large area by 5%, but decrease contrast over here by 40%, and you can do an infinte number of these changes. Darken here, lighten here (in the middle of the area you just darkened), etc., etc., with absolute control and repeatability and reversibility at any point. <p> And so, here's my real point, and recommendation. Digital printing requires just as much skill as darkroom printing. If you want to be a master digital printer, you'll have to spend years on Photoshop, just the way you did in the darkroom. I know, to a novice, Photoshop looks easy, but it is actually one of the most sophisticated programs ever developed for computers, and its depth is incredible. Once you learn the basic concepts like levels and curves and dodging and burning, then you go on to masking and adjustment layers (which make every change you make infinitely repeatable and reversible), and finally when you get really sophisticated you start getting geeky about the numbers, learning how to understand the numerical data that Photoshop gives you for every pixel in your image. Then you can perfectly control your black point, white point, highlight detail, zone 1.5 shadow detail, and the like. <p> Similarly to darkroom printing, there are thousands of hackers out there who think they know what they're doing (and who don't know little they know), and there are a handful of real experts who are few and far between. And you can see a HUGE difference in the quality of their prints. <p> So, my suggestion is, go out and get a Mac and start learning about Photoshop. Then when the printers come fully up to speed in the next couple of years, you'll already be on top of it. <p> ~cj <p> p.s.: if you're interested, check out my work at www.chrisjordanphoto.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_jordan3 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jim, to answer your question about costs, the printer that DeWolfe uses, which I also use, is an Epson 1160, which nowadays costs less than $500. Add the inksets and workflow software and other stuff and (independently of the computer itself) you'd be up and printing for about $700 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james___ Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I have seen some of Hunter's work with prints from digitally enlarged negs and there is no difference between them and normally enlarged or contact printed prints. They were superb. I also collect Lenswork's images produced using digitally enlarged negs. I can't tell them from the real thing. I have seen some prints from the digital platform using Epson printers with quadtone inks and really nice art papers and they are beautiful. I didn't see any wet darkroom prints to compare with them but I suspect the silver print would look as good. The blacks were superb and the highlights were pure. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 The article is in the July/August edition of View Camera magazine. <p> For more information a Piezography, see the following website: http://www.piezography.com/ <p> The original Piezography system works on EPSON 760, 800, 850, 860, 980, 1160, 1200, 1520, and 3000 desktop printers. Some of these can be purchased for about $300. The cost of the software, plus an initial supply of 4 - 4oz. bottles of ink (called the continuous ink supply system) is about $665 for the Epson 1160. Refills are about $260 for the 4 bottles of ink. Therefore you are paying about $405 one time charge for the software. Cartridge ink supplies are also available, but more expensive if you use a lot of ink. <p> The new PiezographyBW Pro24 system is $2,130 for the software (plus the cost of the ink) and requires the Epson 7000, a very expensive printer. As it turns out, the biggest difference in the qualities between Epson printers is the paper transport mechanism of the printers. <p> Piezography products can be purchased at: http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezography-purchase.html <p> Piezography (perhaps unlike the other system mentioned above) has excellent technical support. In addition they have a users discussion web site where you can hear about all the successes and the problems people have had with the system. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 With due respect to Chris Jordan, a PC works fine with Photoshop and Piezography. In fact, at this particular time, a PC is needed for the high end PiezographyBW Pro24 system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge_gasteazoro Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jim, I did read the article and I have a few observations/questions: <p> 1.- Is De Wolfe being paid by these manufactures and/or being given special perks (Toner, printer, etc)? This reminds me of John Sexton and Tmax, he always praised Tmax, even at the beguining when everybody was having a hard time with it, I am sure it had to do with Kodak providing him with oodles of film to test and use, I am also sure him, being the expert that he is, could probably make his beautiful prints with just about any film you gave him. Is all a matter of who is making the print, not really what the medium is. <p> 2.- De Wolf mentions "if Ansel Adams were still alive he would be into this big time, big time". Yeah right! here you would have a 70 or 80's something who is a master in the darkroom trying to learn photoshop, LOL.......Like Chris said, Photoshop is no childs play, I just don't see Ansel Adams doing that, but what really pisses me off and makes me wary is that he is trying to associate Adams's name to this process to convert the millions of photographers who try to emulate Adams. If the technology is as astounding as he wants to make us beleive, then let it stand on it's own, forget Adams or any other famous photographer! <p> 3.- Every time I hear about these new printers, procesess, etc. I wait for about 4 or 5 months to check it out, everytime I have been disapointed with the so called "just like a negative" print. So far nobody has been able to show me a digital printed image that compares to an 8x10 contact print! De Wolfe states that what he saw in piezography is better than any contact platimum print, well since I have not seen one of these prints I will give him the benefit of the doubt and will reserve my judgement until then, but so far I am pretty sceptical about this claim. At this point I like to clarify I am not ingonrant in this subject, I happen to have an acquaintance with Dan Burkholder, who is one of the premier digital/platimum printers and I even have purchased some of his prints. I bought these prints because of their beauty and artistry, but if I was going to be brutally honest, not even his digitally enlarged negatives compare to a real LF negative. Who knows, as Chris said maybe in the not so distant future they will be. <p> In the end I think it does not really matter wether it is as good or better than traditional printing, I really think what matters is the image produced, and this is up to the artist not to how the image was produced. To me is more satisfying working on the darkroom, and the magic of seeing the image appear still exites me after all this time. Some people say they are glad not to have to work with the smelly chemistry etc, me I found the entire digital process boring, and "sterile". So is a matter of choice and enjoyment, I enjoy the darkroom, others enjoy the "lightroom". One thing is for sure both mediums require a long learning curve and at this stage of my life I have learned not to second guess myself wheter I would be better off doing it digital, I am confident in my abilities and happy with the results I get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jorge, <p> I doubt that Mr De Wolfe is being paid or subsidized in any way. The company that owns the Piezography system is Cone Editions Press, Ltd. and is a fairly small company that markets mostly to professionals. De Wolfe is not the first person to write a favorable article about this technology. <p> The De Wolfe article is available from the following website: http://www.piezography.com/dw-viewcamera-july.html <p> If you want an unbiased view of Piezography, the Piezography Users Discussion Group is a good place to start: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000 <p> The general consensus of the user discussion group is that the blacks are not quite up to silver capabilities. The Epson printers tend to have problems because Piezography stretches their capabilities beyond what they were designed to do (except the Epson 7000 which costs an arm and a leg). Jon Cone estimates that 1 in 3 Epson printers will have to returned because they will not work properly with Piezography. Fortunately, Epson has a very generous return policy. There are also issues relating to lack of cold tone inks (supposedly coming soon) and the printers constantly having ink clogging problems (the more archival the ink, the more it is likely to clog). <p> The biggest issue for amateurs and "starving artists" is the cost. In order to get the kind of quality that matches silver, you need a high quality film scan that can cost about $50 each from an image service. High quality film scanners for 120 are becoming available in the $3000 price range, but it is too early to tell if they can perform as well as a $15K drum scanner. The problem gets worse for LF film scans. <p> All that being said, there is a tremendous opportunity here as the technology improves and the cost comes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_jordan3 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jorge, your comment about people trying to ride the coat tails of Ansel's name is a good one (and, George DeWolfe is a shameless Ansel-coat-tail rider), but in this context I think you're incorrect. Ansel was still alive when Photoshop came into existence, and Ansel foresaw digital printing and made a comment about it. I don't have the exact quote handy, but it was somthing about having more control and being able to exercise greater artistic choice than ever before, and he lamented that he would not get to use the digital process during his lifetime. So, I suspect that if he were still alive, he'd be whailin away on Photoshop (but probably still making silver gelatin prints, likely from 20x24" digitally-generated negs). <p> ~chris jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I agree with Chris' observation about Ansel Adams, except that since next year is the 100th anniversary of his birth, if he were still alive, he might not be doing any photography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_kravit Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Folks, <p> First, let me say that until you have seen a well made quadtone piezo print all the nonsense about injkjet prints not coming close to the tonal range of silver or platinum is in the words of a great American president hooey! <p> Down here at the Palm Beach Photographic Workshops I have seen and handles Goerge DeWolfe's prints first hand. They are truly spectacular. The tonal range (at least visually) is as good if not better than Platinum and far exceeds silver images (Fiber or otherwise). <p> As a Platinum/Palladium printer I was also hesitant about the Cone Piezography system. Well the truth is with my Epson 7000 and drum scans my 20x24 images have a tonal range that I believe exceeds platinum. <p> With all dues respect to Dan Smith, he obviously has not seen first hand and compared well made Piezography images. Right now we are having a show in the Palm Beach Photographic Centre's Museum that contains silver, platinum and Piezo images. I would challenge anyone to look at the show and tell me that the Piezo images do not exceed the quality of traditional silver. <p> This of course is highly dependent on the image, the exposure, the scan and the artists skills. Just as a fine silver or platinum print is. With that in mind, the images in the Museum will be open to the public begining on Friday evening at 6pm and will run through the end of August. <p> Mike <p> Michael J. Kravit Palm Beach Photographic Centre A Not-For-Profit Organization Board Of Directors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 The only problem is that a drum scanner, the Epson 7000, and the Piezography24 system for the 7000, will set you back about 20-25K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge_gasteazoro Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Michael, Opportunity for what? Is the fact that is digital will make it better and/or more beautiful? No! So really, the only opportunity I see is that it might make it "easier" for some people who do not wish to spend time in a darkroom. In the end they will spend the time learning how to use photoshop, either way it will require effort and "taste" to produce something worthwhile. According to De Wolfe piezography gave him better control of the shadows etc, that maybe so, but if anything I have learned working with photography is that there comes a time when is best to you leave the image well enough alone! any additional tweaking will only make it worse. My question is how much more control do you need? If a person who is now doing photography is not able to control their medium, I don't care how many gizmos and gadgets you give him/her, they still will not be able to create something beautifull. Look, I an neither against or for digital and/or piezography. My point is I don't care wether you make a beautiful image with a $7000 mac,coupled to a $50000 dollar film recorder and printed on a $2000 printer, or you made it in your bathroom with a besler printmaker 35 jumping on one foot and chanting voodoo prayers, if the image is beautiful I will buy it or at least say it is beautiful. I just wish people in the digital area would stop saying "As good as....", "better than...." let the technology stand on its own and people will make a descision. If it truly is a better mouse trap then soon Kodak will stop making film and I will have to get a ten pound digital back for my 8x10. Until that happens I will stay in my darkroom because I enjoy it no matter what the digital advances are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge_gasteazoro Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Chris, I think you are correct, I now remember he did make a comment like that. You are probably right he might have been working on photoshop now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Jorge, <p> Obviously you don't agree, but some photographers would like to have more control over the image, as opposed to simply accepting what "is there" when the film is exposed. But this is really a philosophical argument about the nature of art and expression and not a technical one. <p> There are actually two starting points to digital Piezography printing: 1) high quality scanning of traditional film, and 2) digital cameras (or digital film backs). Right now even $3K digital cameras cannot yield the kind of detail (or digital file size) that can be obtained with a drum scan of a 6x7 negative. Not even in the same ballpark. Obviously. it gets worse with LF. So don't plan on giving up on film anytime soon, even if you did try (God forbid) digital printing. But as I have mentioned in my previous posts, the very highest quality Piezography process that others have been raving about (drum scans, Epson 7000, etc.) is still extremely expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge_gasteazoro Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Michael,Actually I think we agree, If you want to "add" or "substract" something from the image you capture and doing it digitally is easier, great! As a matter of fact the master of this genere, Jerry Uelsmann I think is doing some of his compositions digitally now. As to the price it does not really matter, eventually the prices for all the gizmos will come down.A perfect example of my objections is Mr. Kravit's post, in it he throws down the gauntlet and dares all of us to go and examine the prints and how much better they are than traditional silver prints. Of course he never mentions not only the price of the gizmos, which as I said before is irrelevant since they will come down, but all the time he has spent learning photoshop and all the process required to create these prints. It is this obsession digital printers have of trying to make people beleive that digital is the magic bullet that will make everybody with a lap top a master photographer that I find insulting. Of course right at the end comes the disclamer....all depends on the operator, etc! well like I have been trying to say in all these post, No s**t Sherlock! wether it is piezography or traditional the outcome depends on the operator, and a crappy piezography print will be crappy no matter how wonderful the process is, so...why worry? In any case enought of the soap box, in answer to Jim's question, no I have not seen them, and no, I dont know if they are any better than traditional prints. (Although I doubt they are)lol....could not ressist the last dig.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 The learning curve for Photoshop is steep because the manuals for photoshop will sometimes leave out a step or procesure that must be done before achieving an effect the manual is trying to explain. It should also be said that most of what the Photoshop manual explains is easier to do than how they describe it, so a lot of the inherent difficulty in learning Photoshop is not learning Photoshop but figuring out the manual. I taught myself Photoshop starting with Photoshop 3 around 6 years ago, and if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't do it that way. <p> The first 6 mos, I had my head stuck in the manual trying to figure it all out with endless calls to Adobe for whatever. I got comfortable w/Photoshop in the next couple of years, and now I'm at the point where I can do anything I want. You begin to learn to use tools in different ways than they were inteded, and you begin to create your own procedures and effects and then your ability to create anything you want in Photoshop becomes almost infinite. <p> Looking back on it now, I honestly wasted quite a bit of time teaching myself Photoshop, and think it's a better deal for someone starting out in Photoshop to go the Class/mentor/tutor route. My brother tutors people in Photoshop, and I am contually amazed at the speed at which they pick up various aspects of Photoshop. <p> One related issue to this that is amazing to me is the work of some folks out there that are obviously good with Photoshop but didn't take the time to learn composition and/or some of the other basics, and they many times, come up with spectacular ideas which are poorly executed. I get the feeling some folks out there feel like, 'I'm smart, I'll learn photoshop, and start producing fine art'. <p> My point is that if you need to go over the basics, you should reading some good artbooks/auditing art classes/auditing Photography classes while you're tackling that Photoshop manual. The fact also remains that a lot of what makes up Photoshop is taken from traditional or straight photography and Photoshop like a lot of what is called digital is really an offshoot of Photography and not something separate. <p> I recently moved up to 8x10 to contact print with POP paper and maybe later experiment with some of the other alternative processes, and no matter how good digital gets, I'm still going to try this as opposed to giving up or selling the 8x10. Digital isn't going to replace the other things that people want to get into and these predictions of what digital is going to wipe out have been going on for years with a lot of what is straight photography still here. Digital is the wave of the future in how it changes Photography and not how it replaces it. <p> The shame is the influence that the hype for marketing purposes, has on the folks who gain the wrong perception and expectations of digital(it doesn't have to be one or the other), as opposed to what they could pursue with Photography as a serious hobbyist/advance amatuer/professional. Learning straight photography, or at least the basics of it, gives you a foundation that carries over to your digital work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_chinn1 Posted August 7, 2001 Author Share Posted August 7, 2001 Thanks for the discussion. Since I brought up the issues i would like to clarify where stand. i will probably migrate to digital but not untill I can afford to do it with the quality equal to the best silver and platinum prints I have seen. But "cost to quality ratio" is going to have to approach that of Large Format when I started. What i mean by that is if the only way to get the quality results that I wanted required I buy a $3000 camera, a pair of new lenses for $3000 and a variable contrast head 4x5 enlarger for $3000 i would still be playing around exclusively with 35mm. But I was able to accumulate the equivalent in used gear for about $2500 to start out.Im not suggesting we will be buying used scanners and printers, but there will be a time when the bottom rungs of the technology will provide the tools to produce the prints we want at comparable costs to the wet darkroom. As far as the comment about some people just not wanting to spend the effort in the darkroom, I love the time I spend there, but with two small children and trying to balance photography, work and family, it becomes difficult to find more than a few hours a week get in there. It just seems very appealing that once you have processed and scanned the neg, you can spend your time creating the print, not mixing chemicals, testing chemicals, throwing out used chemicals, testing papers, trying to make identical prints with complicated printing designs etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 Jim, I am pretty much in the same boat as you with two small children, I can't do anything as much as I used to do anymore so outside of spending time with my little ones, my time is precious. I love doing straight Photography and digital and any kind of mix of the two, but contrary to what people perceive and/or want to beleive digital is MORE expensive and MUCH MORE time consuming than straight photography(whatever that is). <p> Consider the whole process you have to go through from day one when you decide to go digital. You gonna need a computer, monitor(and get it calibrated),scanner(scanner software), printer(printer software), CD burner(software), OS, software, surge protection, extended three year warranty(you're crazy if you don't get it). <p> You're going to have problems problems with some or all of this stuff at some point in time, and everytime you do, you'll have to take the time to trouble shoot/call tech support/break down your system and ship it back to the manufacturer/add and or remove hardware and software that's causing your system to crash. You'll have to take time to watch for and download the updates and patches. No matter what you do, sooner or later you're going to have crashes, breakdowns, downtime, and a great amount of your time is going to be spent trying to figure out if the problem was caused by you OS, your software, your hardware or whatever. <p> Over the 6 years or so that I've been into digital I honestly think that when I add it all up, waiting to talk to hardware and software manufacturers, that I've spent close to about a week just being on HOLD! It is simply intolerable to me anymore, to sit on hold for 45 minutes for anything and I will no longer do it. <p> Every time you purchase anything new, your head is going to be stuck in a manual which you've gotta read at the risk of messing up your system. <p> It going to take some time for you just to get you system to work. Photoshop is going to take you a substantial time to learn, practice, and then master. If you jump into digital this very day, figure on at least 6 months to a year, and probably a lot more time than that to get everything working right and to get proficient in Photoshop before you start kicking out the kind of prints you want. <p> There is the merry-go-round of software-upgrades-updates-bug fixes-crashes caused by the updates-patches to fix the bugs caused by the updates, and on and on. I have gotten off this merry-go-round and currently will not purchase any more hardware or software. I've got what I've got and that's it. <p> Digital isn't easy or quick, it's hard to learn and time consuming. I use it because the results are sometimes spectacular but I don't hear a lot of people discussing what happens when things go wrong. When you system is down, your CD burner isn't burning, your printer isn't printing, you're out of business until it's fixed. <p> My camera equipment almost never breaks down, never malfunctions, and you only have to learn how to use a piece of equipment ONE time. I can go out and photograph any time of the day, and by the way, I need someone to explain to me just how do you do digital in the middle of a power outtage. <p> As great as digital is, it's delicate, hard to maintain, and time consuming. Straight Photography is quick, simple, and almost always works. <p> Don't get me wrong, I love digital, I'm just sick of the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
struan_gray Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 I think the major problem with these sorts of discussions is that with the exception of the occasional poster like Dan, nobody says what they mean by "quality". <p> I think I've said this before, but in terms of their physical qualities, the most beautiful prints I've ever seen were conventional quad-tone lithographs. They had a gorgeous semi-matt surface finish, wonderful microcontrast, and were printed on a paper that simply felt superb between the fingers. <p> The thing that excites me about inkjet printing is that it offers me the chance to make this sort of print without a lifetime's apprenticeship. The relevance to this thread is that nobody who took the trouble to look would mistake one of those prints for a conventional photograph, and those who prefer the transparent richness and glossy smoothness of, say, ferrotyped fiber prints will never agree with me that the lithographs are 'better'. <p> High quality work is possible in both digital and analogue, but I agree with those who say that digital is much more expensive for good results. I do a fair bit of image processing in my day job; I roll my own routines, and have access to specialised tools which make photoshop's tonal control look like trying to do brain surgery with a monkey wrench. Despite that, and despite the preference outlined above, I'm still trying to find time away from two seven-month-olds to improve my wet darkroom skills. It's partly cost, partly a love of process, but mostly that I see no reason not to do both, and enjoy both. Once you get past a certain stage of competence, "best" becomes an aesthetic choice, not a technical one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_jordan3 Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 Hey guys, one other comment. Someone here said that getting set up with top-quality quadtone printing equipment is extremely expensive. But, if you add up everything you need, including the computer, it actually ends up costing quite a bit less than a good quality darkroom. And, once you've paid the up-front costs (i.e., bought all the stuff), the prints cost about the same-- a couple of bucks each. A few years ago I was all set to drop about thirty grand on a massive Cibachrome darkroom setup (that cost included plumbing and some other major work on my garage) and then I saw an Epson print! With the amount of money being spent on R&D in the industry right now, our wildest hopes will be sure to come true much faster than we can imagine. <p> ~cj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_chinn1 Posted August 8, 2001 Author Share Posted August 8, 2001 Jonathan, <p> Thanks for pointing out the "darkside" of the technology. Everything you say is true. besides the costs in dollars, one also has to decide the cost in time. I may spend an ungodly amount of time in the darkroom trying to get a print just right, but it is still time spent on the image. There is very little that can go wrong with my current wet set up that can not be quickly replaced or repaired by myself. I can see that for photographers like myself who create images not as a career but as a personal endeavor, on somewhat limited funds and creative scheduling, the technology might sour the great joy I find now. <p> But on the other hand there is a mountan of ektachrome and kodachrome slide boxes from 35mm sitting around here, maybe i will just get a cheapee scanner, basic photoshop, low end Epson printer. Wait maybe a better printer to start, no better get a high quality scanner, no aughghgh, were is the asprin bottle! anyway thanks for the discussion, my 5 yr old wants me to "help her" make some prints from some 8x10s I made of here most recent block architecture.Good Shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now