chimera_h Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I did my first wedding this last weekend and it was very interesting. As expected, the entire bridal party ran late, however they were running so late, that we got maybe 15min worth of pictures at the hotel where they got ready. We were supposed to do the bridal pics and bride and groom pictures before the wedding. Didn't happen. Well, we got a few bridal pictures. The bride was literally shaving her armpits while wearing her wedding gown (nice, I know), eating chicken nuggets and giving her daughter a bath. 20 min before the wedding they were setting up chairs and just as the wedding was supposed to begin, the MOB was arriving with cupcakes. Seriously, that's just a bit of what went on.</p> <p>I have a few questions....</p> <p>1. I had a second shooter (who was great), as well as another acqaintance of mine and the bride's who is interested in photography and asked if she could take pics too. She is interested in possibly working with me in the future IF I ever do this again. Here's the deal....within hours of the wedding ending, she went home and posted many of the main photographs on Facebook (for the bride/groom and everyone to see). These were poses that I had planned and choreographed. I was hoping to be the first to show these pics to the bride. It felt like she was taking the credit. It was not intentional, but that's how it turned out. She then posted more the next day, so I emailed asking if she could hold off until I post them on my site and present them to the bride. How do YOU photographers handle this type of thing? Am I being too sensitive?She did ask to work with me that day, so I feel like I should have some say?</p> <p>2. There were also Facebook images of my poses that were posted by the bridesmaids who happened to be there snapping away. Do you let others take pictures while you are? There was an "Uncle Bob" taking pics too and he played dumb when I asked about his Fisheye lens. He then said he had lens envy and only a very serious photography hobbyist would know that term.</p> <p>3. I really missed out on getting the pictures that I needed for my portfolio. This was a free wedding, but she knew I was hoping to get something for my portfolio. Is it okay to stress to a client (I'm doing a paid one in May) that there are certain things I expect to get out of doing an event? I know next time I'm going to have to stress being on time as I remind them that they'll want certain pictures (and me as well).</p> <p>Thanks!!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy_kay Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>1. I would flip out if my assistant did that. And I would not use her again.</p> <p>2. I wouldn't allow others to take photographs while I'm posing. But other than that, they can take pictures as they want.</p> <p>3. I wouldn't expect anything out of a couple because it's THEIR wedding day. Maybe a trash the dress photoshoot would help you to get the pictures you need?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I don't worry about other people taking photos while I am - of wedding party, family etc. I tend to shoo them away when doing the couple for multiple reasons... I like the couple to feel private and intimate is one....</p> <p>The couples sees tons of photos from friends and relatives but they always are thrilled with mine which are totally different - even though it's the same scene.. My lenses are the best and I often shoot with my 70-200 - believe it or not so my background is totally different. Guests have different compositions and F-stops and they also don't have my fill flash - They're on auto... The other people shooting does not hurt my sales one bit . I do however, ask the families and groups to look at me - not at the other shooters.. </p> <p>As to the assistant - She should take everything down - right away. That's just wrong.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardens Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I do not let other people take photos during the formals (unless I am <strong>done</strong> with that particular grouping then they can). There should be no doubt the pro photographers images are better and should not really even be a question as far as losing sales.<br> I give my assistant the CF card and collect it when I am done. This helps rid the problem you had with your assistant. After I edit my images and give them to the bride, I give them their un edited images to do with what they want, but always ask for credit if they are using them in their port, facebook etc.<br> Sometimes you learn the hard way with these issues, but atleast you are learning!!! :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>1. Sorry to say that you should have taken care of the second shooter arrangement before the wedding. An agreement in writing, which spelled out exactly what you want the second to do, and not do. Good idea, above, about collecting the second's CF cards immediately at the end of their shift.</p> <p>2. Images taken by bridesmaids, etc., cannot be controlled. So Mary's idea re shooting at a much 'higher' level than guests and family members, so that your images are obviously much more professional, is a good one. This way, you need not worry about Uncle Bobs, etc. As for Uncle Bob chit chat, I try to keep my dealings with Uncle Bobs friendly but short. I don't really care what they are doing unless they are truly interfering with what I am doing, and I don't have a lot of time for chit chat.</p> <p>3. I would not tell a paying client that there are certain things YOU expect to get out of shooting their wedding. It isn't about you, it is about them--their wedding--their pictures. Better to stress the fact that they will be 'wasting their money' to have you sitting around NOT taking pictures because of their lateness (even this should be worded much more gently than I have). In any case, on time weddings/brides are rare. Of the hundreds of weddings I've shot, I'd say maybe 5 percent or less were actually on time the whole day. Late starts by the bride are almost to be expected. There is nothing I know of that you can do to consistently control this. This is why you have to have a plan when you actually do start shooting--and execute it fast. You also have to have a plan for later, where you try to eke out a short, improptu photo session with the couple, and catch up on shots you know you missed. Again, you have to know what you are going to do and do it fast.</p> <p>Seems to me you both (you and your second shooter) could use some experience assisting or second shooting with an established pro, especially if you have not had any kind of business experience. This is where you pick up established and common sense business practices, as well as tips on how to make the most of schedules that go off track, as well as bargaining with clients, people management and executing contingency shooting sessions, just to name a few. Any second shooter with any business experience and sense should know not to post their images anywhere without permission from the primary, even if this job was non paying. And again, a written agreement should have been drawn up, especially if this person is your friend. Nothing ruins friendships more than business...unless you are very careful.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I just re-read my post, above, and concluded I sounded very stern. I actually mean all of the above in the best way. I am not criticizing or making light of your efforts in any way. I truly believe that the best way to get business experience (as well as technical experience) is to assist, second shoot, or even, just observe. Otherwise, you will be doing all your learning the hard way, and with some possible negative consequences that could have been avoided.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>1. So this mutual acquaintance, who was not your second shooter, of yours and the bride asked if she could shoot some pictures and then posted them right after the wedding. Then during the formals, guests were taking pictures and now those have shown up on Facebook as well. Hmmmm, sounds like your a bit worried about the quality of yours verses theirs, maybe someone else was able to grab some images that will blow yours away. Should you be?</p> <p>2. You might be the pro photographer at the wedding but why would you try to limit the enjoyment of the day and the hobby of photography for others? Would you stop taking pictures if you were a part of the wedding or at a friend/family wedding? Would you not want to share your/friend/family special day with others? Don't be the photography police!!! If your having problems getting the formals you'll have to be more assertive or try to work with the family and friends instead of becoming a jerk (I learned this one the hard way).</p> <p>3. Weddings will never be about what you want or need. You'll have to get whatever it is you desire only after or while your getting what they hired you to do. We always have to work with what we are given, not what we desire or demand. If you need some shots for your portfolio, offer to do a free "day after" or "bridal" shoot with them. If she is willing to do a Trash The Dress great, but I wouldn't have a ton of those in your portfolio as this is more akin to a fashion shoot rather than wedding photography.</p> <p>Don't sweat all of this small stuff, just let your confidence shine and let your "professional" images do the talking.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.marcinkro.com Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I've used friends as second photographers in the past (sometimes for free, and sometimes for money). I have no problem allowing others in to shoot with me. It helps them and me; me to alleviate some of the stress, and them to get experience. </p> <p>When I have a assistant photographer, I tell them that they can use all the shots for their own portfolio. Yet, since I concider them a part of my team, at least for that day, I allowing them to take care of some things while I do other stuff, like stay with the groom while I follow the bride, hence, I tell them that I need their memory cards at the end of the day, and they get them back as soon as I'm done downloading them. As part of my team I rely on them, and so they get some stuff I don't.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera_h Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>The quality of my pictures are absolutely on a higher level, so that was not the issue. I visited the location many times before, set my exposures , etc. It's that I did all the work, the planning, the arranging, etc., and someone else jumped in and posted images (lesser quality, yes, but my arrangements). Theirs are underexposed, but the point is they showed a moment that I planned to capture and present to them first. I suppose it doesn't make sense to everyone. As the main photographer, I wanted to be the first to show those posed images.<br> For the next event my formal second shooter (the one who wasn't a problem) will be shooting on my cards. That was planned from the beginning. I'll also have a contract for her.<br> The event this weekend was just awkward because we were all friends, though the one who asked to take pictures knows I do child and family photography professionally.<br> As far as Uncle Bob goes...I know those are a every wedding. I was just wondering if you all have issues with that. The only problem I really had was that he was sometimes in my way.<br> Nadine, no offense taken. As stated in my above post, I have one professional second shooter and a friend (non-professional) who asked to take pics. She is the one who posted images. While I am new to wedding photography, I am not new to the child and family photography business and have even done some major commercial photography for the CA. State Library System. <br> I guess I was taken off-guard by this friend. Thanks everyone!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>OK--then this issue is about mixing friends and business, which is always a delicate thing. When you do, I would be doubly sure you have a contract and that things are spelled out clearly. Also take extra precautions to avoid problems. It makes perfect sense to me that you were not happy she posted her images first, and it should have made perfect sense to her too. Yet again, it is shown that common sense (and business sense) is not so common.</p> <p>As for Uncle Bobs who are in the way. If they are, I take them aside and either make them my assistant (yes, it IS manipulative) or ask them in a friendly way not to do whatever it is they did that made them in the way.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera_h Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>You know, I'm usually really good about not mixing friends and business. It's always been a rule of mine. However the whole thing was strange for we both knew the bride. This assistant is the nicest person ever, so it wasn't intentional. Just thoughtless.</p> <p>Love your idea for Unlce Bob. Brilliant! : )</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p><em>I was taken off-guard by this friend</em><br /><em></em><br />I will disagree with Chimera's viewpoint and Nadine's response that it should make 'perfect sense' to the freind although I agree with the rest.</p> <p>The freind is described as merely "interested" in photograpghy. She doesn't seem to have any experience in the business and the specialized uncommunicated interests of Chimera. Knowing about a portraiture business doesn't magically make her know all that. The freind asked in a very broad way if she could "take pictures too." Why should anyone be surprised when the freind did what exactly what she was welcomed to do. Chimera gave the green light and the big go ahead to shoot all these set up poses. People post pics quickly now. Its the natural thing to do. It should be completely expected of non-pros and snap shooters. Its common knowledge. Good grief, it wasn't "thoughtless". The freind was practically invited to do what she did.</p> <p>As far as missing out on portfolio opportunities, agreeing to let other shooters spend time on one's own posed shots is going to eat up precious time. As will pointless discussions about fisheye lenses with Uncle Bob. Idle freindly conversation is great except when there's a mission going unaccomplished.</p> <p>There's no need to fret. These are the kind of lessons to be learned on shoots like this so it has great value nevertheless. Just don't get upset at others for the things you bring about.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markonestudios Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Death to facebook!! :) Jus' kiddin'! I for one have no intention of ever joining that or any other such site. Anyway, rant aside, I don't mind others snapping away during formals and in fact I use the opportunity to get some great candids during the formals, but only after I've finished posing that particular formal and shooting it. I usually allow a 5-second or so 'free-for-all' window so the Uncle Bobs can excercise their twitchy index fingers ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>Since this "friend" was a mutual acquaintance of yours AND the bride, would she have been there anyway? If yes, then by asking you if she could take some pictures was just out of courtesy but you have to understand, she would've taken the pics anyway. If she wouldn't have been at the wedding then this is your first lesson in "assistant" management that you will not forget and cause some changes to the way you do business, no big deal. Actually, besides the advice of Uncle Bob/Aunt Sally getting in your way, none of this is a big deal. People, especially Americans, love photography, always have and always will; why do you think most of the online image/social sites were created by Americans. You can't stop people from taking pictures at a wedding, even "your" posed shots, which have been done a million times before by others, you don't own them. You do own how you shoot them, with what equipment, and how you post process them. You can either try to become the "wedding photography police" and get a bad reputation or you can just trust in your photographic skills while laughing at the horrible images the guests capture.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>Mark - Facebook as a marketing tool is a gold mine....we've booked 5 weddings from Facebook. These are weddings that we would have never booked if it weren't for Facebook. You might want to give it a try.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdrose Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>MAK,</p> <p>I wouldn't discount Facebook. I have made a lot of contacts and even a few fine art palladium and cyanotype print sales through that site.</p> <p>CH,</p> <p>Thanks for sharing the experience of your first wedding. Interesting. I personally have never had the courage to do a wedding. I admire those that do.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mt4x4 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I for one have no intention of ever joining that or any other such site.</p> </blockquote> <p>FYI, you just made a post on one.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera_h Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>Thanks for the help everyone! I swear, some of you sound like my mother. I mean that in the most lovingly way. : )</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>Mama knows best!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagesax Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>During the formals I ask all of the other shooters not to fire there cameras because the people you are photographing don't know which camera to look at. If you are unable to get a foothold on this situation, plan an doing a lot of retouching; dealing with moving eyes and blinks. The bride will of course blame you, not uncle bob.</p> <p>During your first interview with the bride let her aware of wondering eyes. If I can't stop Uncle Harry from shooting while I'm conducting the formals, I'll simply ask the bride to speak up, because the quality of her pictures <strong><em>will </em></strong>suffer. It's that simple.</p> <p>As the lead photographer you have to approve any and every image before it is displayed, because it is your reputation on fire here; therefore your assistant cannot post anything without your permission. If she or he doesn't like a few common sense, simple rules, mainly known as professional courtesy, than don't hire them again. I know your photographer is suffering from being overzealous and full of excitement, but again it is your business and only you should control what images pass for quality and get uploaded.</p> <p>By the way, you may wish to work alone for now so you can master your own craft and not worry about training someone else until you have a few years of wedding experiences under your belt. Added assistant shooters can really upset the flow and style.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>Bob - her assistant is not he one who posted the files, the mutual friend of hers and the bride did. However, I do agree with you about professional courtesy regarding assistants and the need for a contract. I disagree with your take on reputation to a certain extent as long as the assistant is another professional, they can post whatever.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markonestudios Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Chris, JD, Keith, take my comments regarding FB with a grain of salt ;-) I do appreciate that it works for some, but I am of the considered opinion that it is not my thing. PN is a photographers' forum, so I have no qualms about being on it, as it serves my specific purposes. But I digress. This isn't an anti-FB posting but rather a thread attempting to help out our OP :) <p>I can identify with Bob's comments on working alone to begin with. I have done so for quite a long time. Eventually I got my cousin to be my assistant, helping carry my gear but not shooting. I then took someone under my wing who now assists while I show her the ropes, as it were. I wouldn't have been able to manage an assistant when just starting out. I was too focused (no pun intended) on improving my skills and technique... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 <p>Mark - No worries, I didn't take your comment in a negative way at all. Actually, I would not be on FB either if it were not for the marketing aspect since it's free. We just threw up some images, placed links to our real site and provided some details about why we do what we do. After booking our 3rd whopper package wedding I was instantly sold.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherijohnson Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 <p>I think if the person taking the pictures was a guest of the wedding, then you really can't say a whole lot about the pictures they take and them posting them online.... it's just how things are these days.<br> Your images should represent a higher quality that when presented they will be more than happy. I am sure they will be.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou korell Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 <p>In these days of Facebook and other online outlets, you are not going to be able to police what gets posted and what doesn't. Even contracts do not always protect people against misuse of photographs or copyright violations.<br> People are going to do what they are going to do. The bottom line is this was your first wedding so you are new to the "business" side of doing weddings. There are always things to deal with since you are dealing with a variety of people in the course of putting a wedding together and of actually shooting the wedding.<br> As you become more experienced you will be a lot more savvy about who you use as a second shooter and how to handle the images. There are two ways to do this. If you are using someone you have not worked with before you will want to have them shoot your cards and hand them over after the wedding. You can always send them a disc of their shots if you arrange it with them. The other option is for those with whom you are very familiar and you trust them to do the job professionally. The can burn you a disc and send it to you.<br> The other method that I just remembered is to have a drive specifically made for uploading CF cards and upload their cards after the event. But most importantly you must have an understanding that no photos are to be publically displayed by anyone except you. That is your right as primary photographer but it is not enforceable by any means except by mutual trust.<br> Lou</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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