dustin_hatcher Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>Hi Everyone,</p> <p>Wasn't quite sure where this question would fall under, so I just put other. Anyways, I wanted to find out what everyone's opinion here is on giving clients all the RAW files from their photoshoots?</p> <p>Let me preface this question with the knowledge that my wife and I always kind of assumed you don't want to do that just because there's really no good reason for a client to have the blurry, wrong cropped, incorrect white balance, unedited images. We also thought its a bad idea because if a client got a hold of a blurry picture or something they might accidentally/purposefully show it to someone and then it looks bad on us of course.</p> <p>Lately however, we've had a few clients who are somewhat adament that they would prefer one disc with all the RAW images and one disc with our chosen and edited images for them. Their reason being "just because its their photos" (since they paid for the photoshoot).</p> <p>We got this question yesterday on one of our shoots and we basically tried to explain very politely that we don't give them out because of the reasons which I mentioned up above in the 2nd paragraph.</p> <p>So anyhow, what is everyone's opinion on this? How do you handle that situation and do you think we did alright with what we told them?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>The trick is to head this off at the pass, early on, by shaping the customer's understanding of what they're actually paying for. In most cases, they're paying for <em>services</em> , not data. Whether or not a certain number or format of images are the fruit of that effort is somewhat separate... but those are <em>not</em> "their" images, unless you're entering into a very distinct and (in the case of weddings, unusual) "work for hire" situation). <br /> <br /> Different analogies help different people to understand this issue. One way to look at it... would they expect the caterer, who has been in the back room trimming chicken fillets for the reception dinner, to also put all of the trimmed fat and questionable meat out on the table, just in case someone likes that sort of thing? They trust the catering chef to make some judgment calls, and should trust you to do the same. Explain that you have their best interests at heart, and have a vested interests in only presenting the parts of your work that rise to your standards.<br /> <br /> Most people have a reason for all of this: they either want to make prints without getting you involved, or they essentially don't trust you to include marginal photograph of Aunt Tilly, when it happens to be the <em>only</em> photograph that includes Aunt Tilly.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt wiler Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>I suspect that most people don't understand what RAW files are, much less have the capability to open them. They are probably telling you they want all of the shots, edited or not, in a form they can use, like JPEG. Perhaps I am wrong on this, but I would not do it in any case without first editing out the real discards. When you re-number the files sequentially there won't be anything obviously missing. In any event, your contract should govern what they receive and what they can do with them.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin_hatcher Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>Yes our contract is very specific about what they get and they are allowed to re-print for personal use only (not profitable use).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_c.5 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>One thing to be sure of is whether they're talking about raw files as in the unedited images (assuming they use the word "raw" to mean unedited), or the actual RAW files themselves. If they are technically adept, then they'll know about the RAW formats and have an understanding of what they are.</p> <p>My experience has been that these clients are very few and far between. I've never had anyone ask for these. Usually, only someone versed in photography or graphic design would know what they are. Just handle it from now on with contract verbage. Charge them extra if they want the actual files and won't take no for an answer.</p> <p>These days, with the proliferation of inexpensive DSLRs and more folks using cameras with this format as an option, the number of requests for this can only go up from here. Bottom line is that part of the artistry you are selling them is your post-production skill in creating the images as you see fit. Your policy on this will dictate that you're the only one who will be tweaking these files.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedding-photography-denver Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>I never give RAW files, period.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>You can do anything you want and tell them anything you want--this is all up to you. Me, I give out RAW files if the client knows what to do with them. I've photographed weddings for people who are either photographers or graphic designers, or otherwise proficient in Photoshop.</p> <p>I have nothing to hide re the files. The ones that are plain wrong--completely blurred, a mistake, flash didn't go off, pushed the shutter button by accident, turned out to be a really boring image--are deleted anyway. If the client notices a gap in numbers, I truthfully tell them exactly what happened. If they are proficient in Photoshop, they usually also understand the shooting process and the fact that no one is perfect.</p> <p>As for exposure, mostly my shots are close, and the occasional underexposed or overexposed shots are not horribly so--all well within range of normal or optimum. So I see no reason why I should deny someone who knows what to do with these files, the opportunity to work on them for themselves.</p> <p>The people who don't know what to do with the files and are only trying to get whatever they think they are due, get told that the files are useless to them anyway. I've never had anyone argue beyond that.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_clark___minnetonka_mi Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>I do the same as Nadine.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin_hatcher Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>I think what happened with us is that the client just wanted to make sure they got all the pictures (not necessarily in RAW format, but yes something usable for them). Even when we explained that we get rid of the blurry ones, etc first, they were somewhat insistent we give those too since its their photos. So I think that's what kind of threw us for a loop. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiva Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <blockquote> <p>... they were somewhat insistent we give those too since its their photos.</p> </blockquote> <p>... but they aren't their photos. They are <strong>your</strong> photos.</p> <p>If you google "alan light dim" ... you'll find a little utility that renames your image files by <strong>time taken</strong> at the moment it moves them from your camera to your computer so that the customer never knows "the number" sequence of Your image files; you also get instant order to your image files too. </p> <p>You then can edit out what you want and there is no "appearance" of missing image files.</p> <p>The above still leaves you with the dilemma of them asking you if you are giving them "all" the image files and what your response will be.</p> <p>It's your art and you are not obligated to put less than your very best out for the world to see... it's a matter of quality control and being a good business person who offers a great product for a specific price. </p> <p>Ask them if they are requiring other vendors to give them their best or their second best and third best? (shh, I'm kidding but you know what I'm saying.)</p> <p>If I find a photo "questionable" I always include it in a secondary folder and let the customer decide on it; we don't always know what's going to melt their heart even if it's not of great quality.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>Then the issue isn't about giving RAW files, but about giving a client 'everything', a topic which has come up before. To get a wide range of answers, look up some of the previous posts, but basically, and again, it is up to you. As with RAW files, I don't have any problem giving a client my rejects, if they really want them. These are mostly shots that I think are boring--I was anticipating something and it didn't happen, or technically imperfect but not horribly so--an OK image, but slightly OOF, for instance, or similar images which I've culled. All the obvious 'mistake' ones are deleted almost immediately, so they wouldn't be accessible by anyone, including me, after that point.</p> <p>Whatever you decide to do, not only should you have the proper language in your contract, but you should also be careful when talking to your client. If there is discussion about or questions from your client about your post processing, do not make it sound like you are editing out images that aren't obvious mistakes. Don't claim you are perfect, or that your images are 'art', and you, as the artist, decide on what is given. This not only sounds snooty but implies there are lots of images they wiill never see because you are applying your artistic standard to them. Try not to get into hard and fast numbers of images, like ratios of images shot to images given. Emphasize the fact that you cover their event well, in general numbers, and everything that needs to be represented, will be.</p> <p>Always renumber your final set to the client sequentially. Do not have any gaps. And if they ask about shots they 'thought' you shot but aren't in the set, you can decide if you want to give them your rejects or not, or handle it differently--if you didn't really do those shots. Sometimes people's memory can play tricks on them, or there are other, underlying reasons for those kinds of claims.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkiffmeyer Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>We had family photos taken last Fall, and I talked to the photographer ahead of time about the RAW files. She was very hesitant to give them to me, mostly because print orders is where she makes the bulk of her money. I gave her a check for $200 as "insurance" on the RAW files, which was then deducted from our print order. (which was around $1,200) That way she knew I wasn't going to just walk away and print my own, but I was able to play with them and she would have printed from my processing if I requested that. As it turned out, I was more happy with her processing than my own (which is why I choose her), and we were both happy with the way it turned out. Had I never ordered the prints she would have cashed the check and at least made that much. (along with the $150 session fee) She never game me permission to print my own, but she also never made a big deal about it either. I did keep the RAW files and am glad I have them. I can play with them into the future. If I was ever to print something significant, I would either ask her first or mail her a check.</p> <p>I really appreciated the professional manner she kept, and the trust she extended. We live in a small town, and that kind of attitude has me recommending her to others.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 <p>We always include the Raw and a final jpeg ..releases us from all responsibilities/storage. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstrutz Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 <p>I include high resolution jpg files with prints for weddings, and used to include the negatives. But I have never had anyone ask for raw files. Hardly anyone knows what to do with them. But if someone asked for them, I would do it.</p> <p>I would even give them the reject files if they really wanted them. But when people have asked about them they decided otherwise after finding out why I deleted them. I'm not trying to hide them, they just aren't worth looking at.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmichaelc Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I've given them out to other associate photographers that have asked me to shoot either their wedding or their children's wedding. Never have I given them out to a typical client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdengo Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 <p>This is a discussion of whose property rights are involved. In one hand the copyrights of the photographer or in the other hand, the rights of the client who hired the photographer. I represent a very large company in the US, and we always make sure that all work product (including RAW files, sketches in the case of the advertising agency, even draft notes...) belong to us. The general approach is: if the photographer, creative executive, designer, etc is working under or dime, their product is ours.<br> This could be overturned in your favor by having a well structured, concise and clear agreement in which you protect your rights as the author, and agree to deliver just post-processed images.<br> Once you have a clear agreement, delivering the RAW images its your choice. Not speaking as a lawyer, but as photographer, I would charge extra to deliver these files...<br> In conclusion, it all depends on the agreement you sign with your client.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherijohnson Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 <p>You can renumber your images in your photo editing and saving process where no numbers will be missing after you have tossed the obvious loser shots.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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