dmitriy_babichenko Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>I photographed a wedding a few weeks ago where the venue where they held their reception is causing me a lot of problems. The country club where the reception took place contacted me 2 weeks prior to the wedding and asked me to fax them a copy of my professional liability insurance policy and a copy of my health insurance policy. In my 12 years as a wedding photographer, no one ever asked me about health insurance, but OK. I scanned both documents and emailed copies to the country club. I called them back the next day to confirm that they received my email and they said that they did and that everything was in order.<br> On the wedding day, as I start unloading my gear, the manager stopped me at the door and informed me that my attachment somehow got corrupted and that they could not open it. He told me that he cannot let me shoot the reception until he has proof of my insurance. I told him that I don't have a physical copy of my professional liability insurance with me, but I do have a scanned copy in my DropBox account and if he let me use their office computer to go online, I would be more happy to provide them with all the documents they need.<br> The manager told me that "for security reasons" he cannot let me use their office computers. I had to call my wife, who at the time was taking my daughter to a play date. My wife had to rush home, pull up the documents and email them to the country club. To make a long story short, because of this I missed the first hour of the reception - the country club manager called a security guard to watch me and my assistant so that we did not go inside the banquet hall. <br> The bride and the groom tried reasoning with them as well, but to no avail. Essentially, I missed photographing the tea ceremony, cake cutting and the first dance. The couple was really upset because their uncle came all the way from China to participate in the tea ceremony, and now they don't have any professional photos of that event. <br> I showed the couple my "Sent Mail" folder to prove that I did email all the paperwork. Also, even though I was not at fault in this situation, I refunded the couple part of their payment - I got a lot of referrals from their family and wanted to keep them happy. The country club refuses to take any responsibility for their unprofessional and unreasonable behavior. Moreover, after I sent a very polite letter to the country club explaining the situation and requesting that they refund me the money that I paid back to the bride (I really was very polite and professional in the letter), they called me and informed me that I can never work at their venue again.<br> I'm not sure how to handle this situation - any advice would be greatly appreciated.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hal_b Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Rich snobs just waiting for someone with more money than them to sue their pants off.... Be grateful that you never have to go back there. There's no reason you should have to provide proof of insurance to work a venue. They're overstepping their bounds. The country club will have their own liability insurance that will cover them regardless of whether or not you have your own insurance.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod_melotte Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>I would tell us who it was and then I can smear their name in my blog LOL! No seriously I'll do that! <br> .<br> I agree with Hal. No reason for them to ask at all. Lesson here is to make sure that thay respond to your email. I say they are liars and are scamming you! (don't get me started).<br> .<br> I would take them to small claims court (are you in the U.S.?). They will settle out of court once they see they can not bully you around. Do NOT threaten them with court as that will do more harm. Just do it and they will settle before you actually go. You have them over a barrel.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelchadwickphotography Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>As you are well aware already, the country club is completely wrong here. Fortunately, your clients also saw the inflexibility and problems the country club caused, and the club has lost not only your recommendations, but your client's recommendations as well. Filing complaints about the venue on the Better Business Bureau, and any other forum you can find where people are looking for venues, will help other brides and their photographers avoid similar situations.<br /> If this venue is in the New York Metro area, I would love a private email letting me know who they are, so that I can avoid shooting weddings at that location. The management team at the venue is completely out of their minds, and you should consider it a blessing that you will never be working there again.<br /> You should also have the bride complain about the venue's unreasonable demands and how they cost them critical photos of their reception, especially at the place where they found the venue. There are many customer review sites that they can use to help spread the word about such nefarious practices.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>I think this was so unprofessional and disgraceful on the country clubs side. If you in fact sent and confirmed the reciept of the documents and they gave you the all OK then they need to deal with the person who opened and approved them. Didi you get the name of the contact to supply to th B&G. Also, I do strongly feel that if there was a technicality such as this, the venue should have contacted the B&G and notified them in advance that there is paperwork missing or not in order. This is complete bull in every way. The only thing to consider in th future is always, always, follow up anything like this with a hard copy, and I always had a copy of my insurance face page in the back flap of my camera bag. But, this should have been all set to go according to your story and these people running this country club are incompetent. Also consider that you are obviously not one of their regular palm greasers, so that's why they don't want you. The manager and or banquet manager probably gts cash in hand hits from some of the regulars, everyone else gets a hassle. Believe me this is something I have been on both sides of in the past, it's just another creepy business.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>The country club was trying to protect it's assets by making sure that you had the proper insurance. If there was indeed an issue with your documentation, they should have cleared it up long before the wedding date. If I call an establishment to confirm something - I always get the name of the person I'm talking to... that way if there's an issue such as you had I can say - I talked to so and so on this date....</p> <p>I don't believe that they could stop you from working the event if you didn't have the insurance or provide proof that you did. Typically they could only prevent you from working their venue if they (CC) where the ones that contracted or where paying you. But you did the right and honorable thing by providing it to them (at the expense of your wife and daughter)</p> <p>I'd go down to small claims right away and file - making sure that you include an hourly rate for your wife in the filing as damages. Threatening does no good with these guys and in fact will just make matters worse.</p> <p>Don't publish their name here or anyplace else. If the bride and groom are upset over the loss of photos - Let them do it for you. A bad comment from a Bride and Groom goes a lot further than a bad comment from a vendor who had to refund money.</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie_vandervelden1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>If you're on good terms with the bride, why don't you file a clain against the country club together? You for lost revenue, bride for a refund on the venue.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmitriy_babichenko Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Arie,<br>Thank you for you suggestion. I just sent the bride an email suggesting that. The only problem is that if she files with me for refund on the venue, we would not be able to do it in small claims court - my refund to her was $900, but I'm sure she paid well over $10,000 for the venue. That's too much for a small-claims court.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie_vandervelden1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>That could work in your favor? If you went to small claims court they may decide to take you on. If you file a bigger claim they may want to settle this out of court?</p> <p>p.s. don't take legal advice from me. this is just my gut feeling.</p> <p>fwiw I've had no luck claiming from small claims court. One time I tried it (unrelated to photography) the defendant didn't show up, court ruled in my favor, and I didn't manage to get the defendant to cough up money.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_farmer Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>File for the small claims max in your state. That should be $2000 or more if memory serves correctly. The bride shouldn't be asking for all of her money back. She wouldn't win anyway. <br> Did you reenact the tea ceremony, cake cutting and first dance? This should have been pretty easy to set up. You are the photographer, not the vidoe (or where you both?) So, you don't need the sound portion.<br> BTW: They absolutly have the right to not allow you to photograph at their location. It doesn't matter at all that your contract is not with them, but is with the B&G. This is a private location, not public, and they control access. I am not supporting them at all! But, it was their action and mistake which caused you to fall short of full service to the B&G. They also shorted the B&G by not allowing you to photograph despite having met their requirements.<br> I suspect that they will settle instead of going through an open court hearing. Don't start posting any negative information until they have a chance to respond. If they continue to refuse to allow you to photograph there in the future, I would ad a note to my website stating something along the lines of, "I have decided that I will not accept assignments at XXX XXXXXXXX CC. This is due their inability to maintain proper documentation which caused me to miss over one hour of a recent wedding." Then explain how you refunded money to the couple and the CC refused to admit any responsibility. So, on and on . . .</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmitriy_babichenko Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Ed,<br> Unfortunately, I was not able to recreate any of the missed events. By the time I got in, the cake was carted away and sliced by the caterers and there were so many other events scheduled (like gift-giving, which took over an hour) that we had no time to go back and re-shoot staged scenes. I suggested that they redo the first dance (I event asked the DJ if we could fit it in), but with everything else that was going on the bride and the groom did not want to risk throwing off the schedule of the wedding. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedding-photography-denver Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Wow, I would not want to work that venue again.</p> <p>Depending on what an attourney advised, I would be tempted to legally seek restitiution for their negligent practices.</p> <p>I may also be tempted to name and shame this venue and staff as publicly as possible. BBB and so forth.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cariad Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>Take them to court and not to a small claims court, just out of principle I would..........this is totally insane. Call your attourney, which is what I would have done right there and then as I was waiting to be able to shoot.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod_melotte Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p>And now I know why AGAIN, I refuse to do weddings! LOL Good luck <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=417486">Dmitriy</a> and I HOPE you keep us informed. Also, make sure you tell the wedding party that many photographers are behind you 100%.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 <p><em>"The country club refuses to take any responsibility for their unprofessional and unreasonable behavior. Moreover, after I sent a very polite letter to the country club explaining the situation and requesting that they refund me the money that I paid back to the bride (I really was very polite and professional in the letter), they called me and informed me that I can never work at their venue again</em>."</p><p>This is a real shame and I have a couple of ideas. First, I would get a list of the Country Club Board of Directors and write this up and mail directly to them. Avoid sending it to the club as the management there is likely to sabotage your efforts by not getting the information into the right hands. Management may be dismissive of you but the board members are typically respected local businessmen and will likely be very interested in this happening in "their" club.....they're also more likely to be concerned about potential negative WOM. Also, utilize your professional vendor network, contact them out of concern and alert them to your situation and experience. There are also vendor feedback boards like the ones found at "The Knot", here, I would encourage you to suggest that the bride may want to post her experience on these boards and help the on-line community give the country club an accurate appraisal of their services. These boards/forums can be a very powerful force, help the bride to negotiate her way through it as the community will likely be much more sympathetic to her plight than with yours. It was awfully nice of you to compensate the bride with a partial refund but in this case I would have squarely set the blame on the country club since you were there, ready, willing, and able and the situation was completely out of your control.</p><p>Legal actions might be a good idea, especially if you can piggy-back on action from the B/G. Unfortunately, the only one who ever really benefits much from legal sanctions are the lawyers......and don't get me started on lawyers :-) Good luck and check back in with any progress reports.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_gillette Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 <p>It's private property, they have the right to have refused him access and to continue doing so. They also have the right to require any of the vendors someone else brings on their property prove they have insurance.</p> <p>You and the couple should be discussing this with your attorneys, not photographers. Especially before making any ill-advised statements on any public forums that identify the club and making accusations of various sorts, as seemingly accurate as they might be.</p> <p>The attorneys can make accurate assessments of the potential damages and can be far more persuasive in discussing the issues with the club.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanie_w Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 <p>How awful! I don't have much legal advice for you but what a horrendous situation. I hope you wipe the floor with them in the court room.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_soroka Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>Small claims court limits you to actual damages.<br> Civil court lets you sue for all sorts of pain, suffering anguish, etc.<br> Enjoy. Don't back down, you won't hear their first realistic offer of settlement<br> until the jury is selected.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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