Fill Flash Question

[tracey_c1]

<p>Hello, I have a question regarding fill flash. For outdoor portraits of the bride and groom I like to use fill flash, but I've found if I try to shoot with a low aperture (big opening) the flash overexposes everything (even if I stop the flash down a few steps). So I usually just shoot in Program mode, but then my backgrounds aren't blurred. I'd like to be able to use flash on a sunny day and also get a blurred background - how can this be accomplished? Thanks!</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>"I'd like to be able to use flash on a sunny day and also get a blurred background"</p>

<p>- you must open the aerture quite wide to narrow the depth of field and blur background. This calls for lowest ISO setting, but may also require fast shutter speed perhaps beyond the max syc speed fo your camera ?</p>

<p>When you ask question, the best answer may require to know what camera, lens and flash you use, so the response could be appropriate.</p>

<p>e,g. use FP or HSS of your camera/flash, or use fast shutter sync of your electronic shutter if your camera has one. You could apply neutral density filters as well. Also try to shoot in area where the background is far behind if possible.</p>

[kiva]

<p>Try shooting with the flash pointing directly up (not directly at the subject) and use a bounce card that comes with the flash or something like "abetterbouncecard" (google it) or Demb Diffuser (google it) to pop a bit of flash onto the subject with the flash shooting straight up yet bouncing a bit of light forward at the same time.</p>

<p>Lower the FEC to lowest level possible too (if needed).</p>

[lightsmith1]

<p>You will get the most consistent exposure outdoors with or without flash by shooting in manual mode. Lots of bright sky, dark backgrounds, bright background, clothing, etc. can all make for inaccurate exposures when you rely on the camera to decide on the exposure settings. Program Mode is a fail safe mechanism for which you pay the price of loosing most of the creative controls over your photography. Better than nothing but hardly optimum.</p>

<p>Shooting in manual mode you can use the aperture you need for the blurred background - though you may need to add a + 2 stop neutral density filter when shooting on a bright sunny day. This is where using the 70-200mm at its 200mm setting also helps.</p>

<p>For fill flash adjust the EV settings on the flash to add the amount of light that is needed, adding more for back lit subjects and side lit subjects in bright sun.This is also where you may want to override the zoom setting of the flash so more of its light gets to your subjects.</p>

<p>One of the drawbacks in shooting in bright sun is that you are also often at f16 with your lens and the flash is really challenged to put out enough light for an exposure at that aperture at distances greater than 8-10 feet.</p>

<p>If you have the sunlight coming from behind or to one side and behind the B&G you will get shots that show the detail of the dress and detail in the faces (where you direct the flash).</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"For outdoor portraits of the bride and groom I like to use fill flash, but I've found if I try to shoot with a low aperture (big opening) the flash overexposes everything (even if I stop the flash down a few steps)."</em></strong><br>

Maybe this is the first issue to work out: what Camera Mode are you using when this happens?<br>

I would not necessarily rush to the conclusion that it is a "Flash Problem" which is overexposing the image.<br>

An example posted with the EXIF data would assist.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[david_garcia10]

<p>flash= aperture<br>

if you want to use a fill flash then you can use tad flash using manual flash control or lower your iso or use a higher sync speed high speed for nikon fp flash sync for canon. are you using ttl or manual flash setting? i'm not sure about using p mode... the outcome varies unlike using manual mode where you can control the outcome all the time... a hint: <a href="http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/8-flash-exposure-comp/">http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/8-flash-exposure-comp/</a> your camera also have the exposure compensation. good luck.</p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>Tracey, only Frank above touched on the real solution to your problem, and I wanted to expound on what he mentioned about the high speed shutter (HSS). I don't know what camera or system you are using, but most good DSLRs these days are able to sync the flash at shutter speeds higher than 1/250 of a second. It's a bit of technical magic that only a few years ago we could not do with conventional SLRs and strobes. Now, watching David Ziser explain this is much more fun and entertaining, but I'll try to give you the short version.</p>

<p>Having a camera and compatible flash unit (both of which support HSS), you can do outdoor bright sunny shots that you could not do before. Check your gear to see if you have this function, and read the booklet on using it.</p>

<p>Basically, on a bright sunny day, you use higher shutter speeds to capture the bright sunny skies and backdrop. The problem is that when you raise the shutter speed above 1/250 on a non-HSS camera, the flash is no longer synced with the shutter, and half the image will be illuminated with flash and the bottom half will be dark. The higher your shutter speed, the worse this gets.</p>

<p>Now, if you have HSS on your flash and camera, you can raise the shutter speed to as high as you need to retain the background colors, and can widen that aperture to get the creamy defocused background you crave. The flash can syncronize at these higher shutter speeds, and will properly fill the subject in the foreground (I'm assuming you have their back turned to the sun so they're not squinting).</p>

<p>It used to be that if you wanted this effect, you had to use continous lights on the subject or reflectors, etc. Now, with HSS, you can use wide apertures and fast shutter speeds, and have the best of both worlds.</p>

<p>One other tip. If you get your flash off the camera shoe and handhold it, it will add some dimension to the lighting of your subject and the lighting won't look so "flat" and straight-on. You will need a dedicated sync cord to do this, one that has all the electronic pins to retain all the flash functions, like HSS.</p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>I'm posting a couple of examples of HSS at work here. They're from an engagement shoot I just did. The first is 1/1250 at f2.8, ISO 160...</p><div></div>

[steve_c.5]

<p>Here is another shot of a cute girl attacking a large bear. Shot at 1/3200 at f4, ISO 160. This was shot with a Sigma 10-20 wide angle, so it does not defocus the backgrounds at all, but without HSS, I could not have gotten this shot and retained the sky/background details. The location is Ruby Diamond Auditorium at Florida State University.</p><div></div>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>As Steve says, you will need to use HSS and a powerfull blast of flash. Watch your recycle time between shots, about 4 - 6 secs.</p>

<p> </p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>When I'm shooting these, I use the flash off-camera on a dedicated sync cord, to maintain the HSS functions, and I use the flash compensation dial on the camera, to increase or decrease flash output. Remember that aperture also affects the flash illumination, not shutter speed. The wider the aperture, the less flash output is needed. Likewise, as you raise the shutter speed, the better your bright background will look (to a point).</p>

[picturesque]

<p>"but I've found if I try to shoot with a low aperture (big opening) the flash overexposes everything (even if I stop the flash down a few steps). "</p>

<p>I also think it isn't the flash that overexposes everything, which is why it still looks overexposed when you comp the flash down. The fact is--it is bright outside on sunny days. To use a wide aperture outside, you usually need speeds much faster than the top shutter speed focal plane cameras can sync at (Steve mentioned this, above). But to use flash, you have to observe this limit, meaning, smaller apertures.</p>

<p>High speed sync can be used to overcome this problem, but it isn't a magic solution. There is one big downside, which is that your flash power, or 'reach', is cut--the faster the shutter speed above the camera's 'natural' limit, the more the power is cut. And outside, against bright sun, you need all the power you can get. So catch 22, unless you can be close to your subjects, which isn't the case with group shots outside in the sun. Luckily, you don't usually want an ultra wide aperture with group shots.</p>

<p>So if you want to use those ultra wide apertures outside, use high speed sync, but remember that you need to be close to your subjects or the flash will not be adequate. Read the following for more info.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/2008/12/13/max-it-out/">http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/2008/12/13/max-it-out/</a></p>

<p>You can also get neutral density filters, which cut the light entering your lens, so you can use wide apertures. The flash, however, still needs to operate as if there was no neutral density filter in place. Here is a previous thread about it.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00M8uC">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00M8uC</a></p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>What Nadine says is true. There are a couple of things to remember about this process, though.</p>

<p>We're only trying to add some fill light on subjects that are close to us as we're shooting. Usually, the flash is less than 10 feet to subject. Most good shoe-mount flash units with at least a 50 guide number are plenty powerful enough for the brightest day. We only want to add some fill to kick in and illuminate people, we're not trying to light the world.</p>

<p>It's important to have an advanced HSS flash unit that also allows you to dial up or down the flash output, and zoom the head. For shots like this, I zoom the head, depending on distance to subject and whatever looks good in the output, so the flash is confined to the subject and not being diffused widely where it is not needed. This helps with having enough light output. Then, I vary up or down the illumination of the flash to achieve the results I'm after.</p>

<p>Even on the brightest day, you can shoot people this way and have more than enough power from a good flash unit. Any good 530EX or Nikon SB flash unit would be more than adequate. And I'd say HSS is a "magic solution", contrary to Nadine. It's controlling the flash output and sending photons out in pulses or waves to ensure even flash illumination no matter what the shutter speed happens to be. As you can see in the last photo above, I was at 1/3200th sec. and f4 and had plenty of illumination on the subjects, with great color and detail in the background.</p>

<p>As for larger group shots, you typically won't be using HSS and a single strobe anyway, so I feel that point is a bit moot. You could use RadioPopper wireless flash triggers, which allow for TTL flash control and HSS functions with two or more flash units, but that would be a pretty sophisticated setup that is beyond this discussion.</p>

<p>You don't need large studio strobes to do this, folks, you just need the right approach and settings, and a camera system with HSS technology.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Steve--whether we agree that HSS is a magic solution, I merely wanted to point out the biggest drawback, which wasn't mentioned so far. Many beginners think that all they have to do to use flash on a bright sunny day is to set it to HSS. Then they are disappointed to find their flash isn't filling as it should, but they don't know why or what they should do (get closer). That's why I added the link. It explains HSS well and talks about the drawback. What Tracey should do is to figure out what kind of flash reach she can get with her gear on sunny days for the apertures she wants, and then do a lot of tests so she knows exactly what she can or can't expect. And I did say that one usually doesn't set an ultra wide aperture for group shots anyway, so this fact is not an argument against HSS, as are any of my comments, actually.</p>

<p>I'd personally rather use ND filters for those ultra wide, f2 shots. And off camera flash, when I can, so I can control light to subject distance and get directional lighting. Otherwise, the blur at f4 and f2.8 just don't do it for me. The blur is even less with cropped sensor cameras. But that's me and my preference.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>I think Nadine and I of of the same mind on one particular issue and she explains my comment, and the request for some examples, with EXIF.<br>

I agree: there are all the Flash Fill techniques described, and there was little point me adding to those. <br>

But the fact is, (with respect), tracey c has assumed that the diagnosis of this problem is correct, and then provided a solution for it and then asked for techniques to suit that solution. <br>

I was asking for the problem, just to fully interrogate that original diagnosis.<br>

WW</p>

<p > </p>

 

[William Michael]

<p >Steve C.</p>

<p >Those 11mm portraits seem to be your calling card . . . I love that perspective effect using the buildings in the background, drawing the viewer's eye in . . . Cheers. WW</p>

<p > </p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>Thanks, WW! Not that I just shoot everything ultra wide, but I include such shots to add a different "perspective" to parts of my work, so I'm not shooting everything with portrait macros or longer lenses, but bringing in the sky and location to some of the compositions. So, I guess that's a hallmark of my work. My clients love it, anyway.</p>

<p>To be clear about bokeh or background blur, the focal length used, along with number of aperture elements, and width of the aperture all affect the amount and quality of blur. I felt the amount of background blur was sufficient in the top shot, which was done with a Sigma 24-70 f2.8. Sure, I could have used a wider aperture prime and maybe gotten more blur, but this is all subjective stuff, and we can coulda-shoulda-woulda all day long. When you're in the moment of a shoot, you sometimes use the tools at hand and focus on the subjects and getting the best from them, as opposed to the technicalities of what lens might defocus the background more. I think their expressions show they had a lot of fun, anyway.</p>

[jnicholson]

<p>Given that this thread is over a year old I'm not sure this question will get any visibilty but here goes: </p>

<p>Can someone explain why the wide angle shot above, by Steve C (a very nice shot), has to be shot using HSS? It would seem to me you could achieve the same results using a 1/200th shutter speed at f16 and just let the flash do its fill thing using normal sync. Given the lens that's being used it doesn't seem to me that the aperture is being used to control DOF. So, I'm figuring I'm missing something and am hoping someone can help me out.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I can't explain it to you Jamie. I don't see a reason, and I don't think you're missing anything.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>I think Steve C's first portrait example more closely fits the OP's original question. It also fits the criteria of working closer when using HHS fill flash. While a very nice image, I personally would have liked to have seen a bit more directional light from camera left on the woman subject to model more of a 3D effect. With static portraits you have time to do something like that. </p>

<p>The second wide-angle example perhaps less fits the original question.</p>

<p>In the case of WA work in lighting like that, I've found Program mode usually works quite well ... especially with action shots where the distance to subject can alter abruptly ... or you can change direction as you follow a subject in action.</p>

<p>I'm not above using P when content takes precedence over other creative considerations (as long as the image is exposed properly and is sharp) ... like the example below done with a Nikon D3X @ ISO 250 on P mode which provided 1/250th shutter using a 24-70/2.8 @ 35mm f/16. Note the direction of the ambient shadows from the very bright overhead sun, but Program figured it out in a nano second and allowed me to concentrate on the Bride's delightful expression which makes the picture above all other considerations. </p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[William Michael]

<p>The OP's original questions states that the <em><strong>"flash overexposes everything (even if I stop the flash down a few steps)".</strong></em><br /><br />The point is, it is very unlikely (perhaps impossible) that the Flash would be overexposing “<em><strong>everything”</strong></em> when doing <em><strong>"outdoor portraits of the bride and groom" </strong></em><br /><br />What is frustrating (interesting to me) however, is the unanswered question I posed over a year ago . . . maybe the OP has the answer to her question . . . and maybe it was not (completely) about Flash at all?<br /><br />WW</p>

 

[jnicholson]

<p>WW, if the OP actually means "everything" then my guess is that it's user error. A simple case of using aperture priority mode, opening the lens wide open and not heeding the camera's warning that, with flash installed, no suitable shutter speed can be found.</p>

<p>Just a guess but that's the most likely scenario in my mind.</p>

[jnicholson]

<p>Sorry, forgot my manners. Thanks for the response Nadine.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I think you are right, Jamie--that is quite a common thing for beginners to do. And you are welcome.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong ><em >"if the OP actually means "everything" then my guess is that it's user error . . . etc"</em></strong><br>

<strong ><em > </em></strong><br>

Yes: Av Mode used incorrectly is a common error indeed. <br>

<br>

Hence my question - <strong ><em >"</em></strong><strong ><em >what Camera Mode are you using when this happens?”</em></strong><strong ><em ></em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >And my comment: <strong ><em >“</em></strong><strong ><em >I would not necessarily rush to the conclusion that it is a "Flash Problem" which is overexposing the image.”</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think that some folk believe I ask too many questions . . . and anyway whilst the question was not answered by the OP the responses deviated a little from finding out what the problem actually was anyway. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Such is life.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

<p > </p>