Low light focus performance

[david_amberson1]

<p>Need some input. I am so pissed right now, I am ready to sell my 1D Mark3 and switch to Nikon D3.(because I know 1D3 is best Canon offers and no other man. is any better)<br>

I was hired last night to shoot a birthday part for 2 doctors at a local Bar/Rest. where they rented the entire facility for the night. In doing so, it came with a theme. Low light...if any at all, and all that comes with the atmosphere. I used my 24-70 f2.8L most of the night because I was in tight quarters.</p>

<p>Most of the night the camera just hunted. I got home and I missed about 90 out of 278 shots(OOF).<br>

No motion blur, just OOF. Some for absolutley no reason. Most of these OOF's were critical to me and are useless.<br>

Am I expecting too much from a 2.8 lens in these type enviornments. I knew I wouldnt be freezing any break dancing, but these people were drunk, and if they moved at all, it was snails pace. My group posed shots were OOF.</p>

<p>Later the party moved outside on the back deck. I just thought I had it bad inside. It was 11:00pm and the only lights were the christmas lights strung on the top rail. Thats it!</p>

<p>For this area, I employed my rarley used 50 1.8II. It seemed to do better than I thought I was going to do. I really thought I'd get nothing. I found me a nice wall behind me in which to bounce and made some really decent shots in this enviornment.</p>

<p>In fact after we migrated back in, I left my 50 on and seemed to get more keepers. Which is rare for this lens. I wish I had used it all night now. I know it sounds like I already know the answer to my question because I got more keepers from the 50, but I need to know if I was being crazy for even trying the 2.8L in the first place or do I have a reasonable complaint. I ask because I rarely shoot in these kinds of extreme virtually no light situations. I mean a high school football field is a god send compared to this.<br>

I just feel for a $5000 camera body(when I purchased new a 1yr ago) I should get better results. I expect this from my 40D, but not this body. Am I right or wrong? Maybe I am wrong<br>

I would however like to do more of these. It paid real well, but is the trick having 1.8 or faster. If so, I really like to 85 1.2L. It is awesome, but too long for most of this. I've heard the 50 1.2 is soft. Of course, a soft 50 1.2L is way better than a OOF from anything else.<br>

Any of you guys/girls shoot this stuff regular chime in. I'm thinking a 50 1.4 last night and I would have been golden. My 50 1.8 focus mech is cheasy and slow. I'm thinking the 50 1.4 woulda been the ticket.<br>

Maybe even a 24 1.4L.</p>

<p>Please, either set me straight, or tell me to move on. I need better keeper ratio for this stuff.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>The faster the lens, the lower the light in which you can get good AF. However ALL cameras have some light limit below which AF becomes unreliable. You could try mounting a flash and letting it use its AF assist illuminator.</p>

<p>

You might actually have gotten better results with the 40D since it has built in AF assist illumination!

<p>"I've heard the 50 1.2 is soft" - who have you been listening to?</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>I knew the faster aperture lenses would be better in low light. Its why I switched to it outside. But I was asking is a 2.8 lens unreasonable indoors in the enviorment I desribed. Is it common for the guys who shoot these reg. to bypass the 2.8 in favor for the xtreme apertures or are they getting reasonable reliability with 2.8 and I have a malfunctioning camera. Was I setting myself up to fail the minute I mounted the lens.</p>

<p>I did use my speedlight and its AF beams. And it was still hunting. From the sound of your response, I was getting the best money could buy for the enviornment I was in.<br>

>>"I've heard the 50 1.2 is soft" - who have you been listening to?</p>

<p>Internet pixel peepers. Same crap I read about the 85 f1.2L being soft at 1.2. Until I used one myself and witnessed how damn sharp it was wide open. I assumed most of it was unreasonable expectations. Some of those guys get crazy about lenses that arent as sharp wide open as 300 f2.8L wide open. Just unreasonable from a $1000 lens. I suspected it(50 f1.2) would perform well if in focus. As I stated above. I'd rather have a soft 50 1.2 image than an unusable OOF from anything else.</p>

<p>Sounds like I blew it. I should have went with the 50 all along. Still like to hear from those who shoot this stuff and the lenses they like ie 24 f1.4 etc.</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>While the D3 and Nikon both have a reputation for better autofocusing, I doubt it would have helped you. If you were trying to autofocus without focus assist, and if you didn't use One Shot, center focus point (with focus assist), you will not get consistent autofocus in really dim conditions, even with wider aperture lenses. The cost of the camera has no bearing on this.</p>

<p>I gather you had some kind of external flash, since you mentioned bouncing a flash. There are ways to set up an external flash so you have focus assist but the flash doesn't fire (you can also use an ST-E2 for focus assist alone), although I don't know why you didn't use flash inside. That's what most wedding photographers do for truly dim lighting at wedding receptions. Some will use high ISO--3200 and 6400--without flash, but I bet they are still using focus assist of some kind.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>If you used focus assist, it doesn't sound right that the camera hunted. I use a Tamron 28-75mm f2.8--not even a Canon lens--and with focus assist, it pretty much gets focus every time. You sure you were on One Shot, center focus point? If not on One Shot, you didn't get focus assist.</p>

<p>The 24-70mm has been known to have slippery autofocus/back/front focus issues, but if you don't notice bad autofocus in other situations, that isn't it.</p>

[bobatkins]

<p>I'd echo using one shot with the center focus point selected. Using Servo AF or allowing the camera to chose the AF point is probably asking for trouble in low light.</p>

<p>It's impossible to say whether an f2.8 lens is unreasonable indoors without knowing what the light levels were but I'd certainly expect AF to be fine (though maybe a little slow) under nomal "domestic" indoor lighting levels.</p>

<p>Were you getting AF confirmation signals ("beep", and or green dot illumination and/or AF zone lighting up)?</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>Thanks Nadine. I did use flash. Though I never knew the Af assist did not work in AI Servo. I thought it would not fire if it was too far away, but not at all. This is a representation of how dark it was. I was at f2.8 ISO 1600 and Manual Exp ranging depending on where I was. About 125th or so. I used the flash for everyshot last night always bouncing on anything I could find. Behind me, wall next to me, an umbrella next to me(the ones in the tables outside). Anything I could find to stop direct flash. This part was good.</p>

<p>I used Ai Servo most of the night until I went outide where I mounted the 50 1.8 and switch to One Shot because it doesnt work well with servo. I dont know why I didnt switch to one shot inside. I knew it would have a hard time in Servo in this low of light. I used all the selectable points through the night so I wasnt doing much recomposing. The Mark 3 doesnt matter about the center point. All of the ones I selected were cross type to f2.8. I guess switching slipped my mind as there was always people moving around and asking for pictures. Pretty busy all night.</p>

<p>I mean half the light of any wedding I've ever been to. But even in Ai Servo, I had instances where this thing would rack the lens back/forth from Macro to infinity looking for anything. Even one shot would have been no better there. But I guess if it was that bad, no camera could have focused.</p>

<p>Sounds like I had some bad judgment calls on some choices. When you are hired to do a job and you arrive and they've stolen all your light, you sort of go into survival mode in trying to get any shot at all and thinking of the little things to add up to a helpfull amount seem to land in the back of your mind.<br>

Live and learn I guess. These little experiences will definitley stay with me. As I said, I never worked in this little light. I've had it bad before, but this was not meant to be. I took a camera reading in the middle with an expo at ISO 1600 f2.8 and 1/10th. I've done some shutter dragging but wasnt willing to drag that much. I could have jumped to 3200, but I'm stingy and the exposures were good where I was, just the lack of focus accuracy.</p>

<p>I think using the 50 and One Shot most of the night would have saved me probably another 30 shots.</p>

<p>Nadine, do you shoot these much. What lenses do you like and work well for the room sizes. I couldnt have imagined this enviorment at a wedding I was shooting where it really really matters</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>I never allow the camera to choose my focus point. I was selecting the 19 selectable throughout the night. The 19 are all crosstype to f2.8 so center point shouldnt have been needed.</p>

<p>Yes I was getting confirmation, but it was confirmed on other areas or no where at all. Seemed nothing in the image was sharp. Slow isn the word for it. I get the feeling I was really pushing the camera and lens to do something that was impossible in most cases. I guess I just got used to my equipment and started getting unreasonable in expectations. After a while you expect the equipment to do everything anytime anywhere when it just isnt possible. I guess I could have tried to MF. Probably been just as quick. LOL. I wasnt doing any speed shooting in there anyway. I guess I didnt do my job by taking over when the camera lost its way in Auto pilot huh.</p>

<p>ISO1600 f2.8 and 1/10th with expo disc was average. Pretty low.</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>Oh yeah Nadine, forgot. I have the 24-70 dialed in with Micro Adjustment on the body.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>David--if you were in AI Servo, you were not getting ANY focus assist. So indoors, where you were in AI Servo, it was as if you were autofocusing with only the camera's autofocus system, which will definitely hunt in really dim lighting. You need to be in One Shot for the focus assist to even come on. So One Shot isn't better than AI Servo just by itself, no, but it is when you consider that you need it for focus assist to function. There is much of the problem, I think.</p>

<p>As Bob says, it is good to use center focus point even though your other points are cross type. I heard, because I don't have a 1DMkIII, that the center is still the most sensitive. And definitely pick your points, don't use auto focus points.</p>

<p>When I shoot wedding receptions, even outside at night with very little light, I use One Shot, focus assist, center focus point and other focus techniques to give myself margins of error. Not using wide open apertures is one, so dragging the shutter becomes important. There is also manual, zone focus for really, really dark conditions if even focus assist fails. I rarely go above ISO 1600, if that. I stay mostly around ISO 800. I use my Tamron zoom on my 5D. I sometimes use one of my tele primes, but mostly, it is the zoom for receptions. I also use off camera flashes, though, most of the time.</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>The only time I went One shot was out side and the breif period after going back inside at the end of the evening. Never knew AF assist didnt work at all in AI Servo. I'll definitly stay Oneshot in the future so my AF assist works.</p>

<p>Why dont you use wide open apertures. Are you trying to use the sharpest aperture or is is a DOF preference. Using 1.8 is very limiting, but I could have set the lens to 2.8 or f4 maybe and still done better because the lens focuses at 1.8 but would take the picture at whatever aperture I set. Another hind sight idea. LOL</p>

[tim gray]

<p>As many others have said: in these kinds of situations, use an f/1.4 lens and the center focus point on one shot. </p>

[madza_zulu]

<p>Well David if you switch to Nikon...I think you have to eat all your words about Canon :-).</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>Madza...I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.</p>

<p>Any comments I've made about Canon were in relation to the current situations I was using them in. I made the comments this morning because I was aggrivated that a $5000 camera wouldnt do better than it did. But after sitting around thinking about the enviornment I was in/settings/lens I lightened up a little on my gear. I realized I was asking it to do something no camera could do.</p>

<p>I stick by anything I've stated that you might have read. My thinking this morning was..."Even if the Nikon is slower in focusing in the enviornment in which I tested the 2, it might be better for my situation becasue even if slower, it might be more accurate once it *does* lock on"</p>

<p>Aside from that, my thinking was, If my current gear isnt getting it done, the option is to try another Camera in which the D3 is the only other tool out there that could do it in that setting. For sure a step down to anything other than a pro body wont be any better.</p>

<p>I'm not a fan boy by any meens. I need whatever tool is doing the best job for the event in which I'm hired. If its Canon, then so be it. If its Nikon so be it. Its a tool to me and nothing more. I got into Canon because at the time, Nikon offered nothing close to what Canon had. Its changed now the door is open...if needed. I wont do it unless its a big difference because the hit I would take switching is huge now. Anything I said somewhere else was related to my current work. As stated, this was the first time I had ever tried shooting in such low light. The worst stadiums or wedding chapel had'nt come close to last night. I was a little bothered upon processing this morning. One thing...if I had a better/sharper LCD, I might have noticed the OOF's before this morning....</p>

<p>just to clear up anything you might have read that I posted. I dont think you are taking a shot at me by any meens, just clarifying if I sound like dont stick by what I've said. Although, I will eat some crow if needed. In fact, I ate some for Bob A. over the very 50 1.8 I am speaking of here(which saved me in a crunch last night) If not for Bob, I'd thrown it out long ago. If you dont know, turned out, it was being used on a camera that didnt have cross types at all and once I mounted it on one that did, I got better performane for sure. I then came back to the site and opoligized to him in front of the world that he was right and I was wrong. I choked on the crow. It was dry and tough:-)</p>

[zml]

<p><em>I was at f2.8 ISO 1600 and Manual Exp ranging depending on where I was. About 125th or so.</em><br>

FWIW: I often shoot at f/2.0-2.2 @1/30s or so (that's over 2EV darker than your settings...) and have no issues focusing with either of cameras (1Ds2, 1Ds3 and 1D3) with a variety of EF lenses, including the notoriously dissed 50/1.4. The 24-70 focuses fine, too, even wide-open, especially with the Mk. III cameras, so I suspect that either your camera or lens (or both) were out of whack, your AF settings were not right, or that there was a pilot error.</p>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>First, let me express sympathy; your experience is an unfortunate one and I think everyone here feels for you.</p>

<p>I don't have a lot to add, but considering that <em>"these people were drunk, and if they moved at all, it was snails pace,"</em> I too wondered about the use of AI Servo even on "group shots." The only time I <strong><em>ever </em> </strong> use AI servo is for fast moving subjects. One-shot just seems much more dependable all around because once it sets the focus it holds it, while by definition AIS is saying, "I'm going to keep changing focus on you right up until the shutter clicks."</p>

<p>If you want to add a lens to the kit, yeah, the 50/1.4 or, if you can swing it, the 35/1.4 are both great for those lighting situations. (Your viewfinder is also so much brighter with a 1.4 vs. a 2.8 that 1.4 lenses help you judge timing of the subjects a lot better when shooting in near-darkness.) 24L is nice but would distort people on the edges so much that you'd end up cropping a lot and wishing you'd used a 35.</p>

[madza_zulu]

<p>@David.....just messing with you...Hopefully you get things accomplished!</p>

[bueh]

<p>That AF assist isn't lighting up when not in One Shot mode is one of the serious flaws of the Canon flash system (the other one is NEVEC). Although most of us read about it in the manual, many of us only learn about it in the field. It is a dumb limitation and you would have probably nailed all the shots effortlessly if AF assist had worked.</p>

<p>AI Servo is definitively not the right mode for getting the most sharp pictures in normal situations, it's more suited for fast-changing sports photography with long teles. In AI Servo the camera tries to focus all the time, often missing your subject entirely, but you can actually take a picture almost any moment, regardless of if proper focus was archieved or not. Unless this is your priority, One Shot is much better for regular shootings.</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p><strong>>></strong><em><strong>Michael.</strong> The 24-70 focuses fine, too, even wide-open,</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Michael, the lens always focuses wide open no matter the lens or camera. It opens to maximum aperture to let all the light in, then sets to your set aperture ie f4.0 or whatever at moment of exposure. Problem was the f2.8 wasnt open enough to allow proper light for focus. Its why I asked here if others normally use faster lenses exclusively for this type of work.</p>

<p>There are no "AF settings" that could help this other than changing to One Shot. Which I get. I used AI Servo because I normally have fine results when using in enough light. Even on static subjects...again in enough light. The 125th I spoke of was actually underexposing. I set the shutter just low enough to register decent ambient light. I didnt want to chance camera shake with the 24-70 at the far end. I imagine the correct ambient exposure would be 30th or so at ISO1600 f2.8. We've definitley established pilot error. I never should have used AI Servo in there. As I stated. I was being absent minded due to the flow and traffic.</p>

<p><strong>>>Ralph</strong> Thanks. I am defintly adding the 50 f1.4. I dont mind using 1.8, but my logic is the 1.4 has the better faster focus mech and is faster. It will focus using f1.4, but I can set to take picture at f2.8 and gain a little DOF, but at least the lens is open enough during focus lock. Which was my problem. I never had any exposure issues. Just slow or lack of focus.<br>

Thanks for answering the 24mm question. I was wondering about the distortion is why I asked.</p>

<p><strong>>>Madza</strong>, I figured you were. I think its cleared up. In the situation, I think the one but critical mistake was "AI Servo and no AF Assist beam". Just never hit me until someone mentioned it. Boy was this a costly lesson. I still got plenty good shots, the customer is happy. I'm not. I missed alot of the ones I really wanted.</p>

<p>I checked the venue earlier in the day and when I arrived, they had all but completely cut off the lights. I went into panic mode and never though in a rational manner to switch it and make sure it had every possible chance to focus. For that matter, if I was thinking good, I'd mounted the 50 f1.8 and never took it off. I was able to work with 50mm in most cases. Some were 35mm, but I could have moved around more.</p>

<p>I just never knew about the AF Assist beam and AI Servo not jiving. I've never needed it when using the AI Servo before. Guess its why I didnt catch it.</p>

<p>Manual? Who reads manuals:-) I'm a guy. I dont need no stinking manual.</p>

<p>AHHHHHH! I learn alot from this site just reading others mistakes and making sure I dont do the same when the time comes. Even the small oversites others mention here have helped avoid mistakes for me. I hope someone reads my mistake and it helps them avoid what could have been a complete disaster.</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>When you think about it, David, that is why the 50mm turned in better autofocusing--the focus assist probably worked.</p>

<p>Using wide aperture lenses will help autofocusing, it is true, but when using focus assist, another important thing to consider is the kind of focus assist beam that is put out by the flash. Go into a dark room, stand close to a wall and work the autofocus, using different focus points. You will see that the center point focus assist beam is a long, vertical line(which will cover more area) while some of the other focus point assist beams are not as long or are horizontal, not vertical (on my 580EX). I am sure this is another reason why the center focus point is still better. And yes, the wide aperture lens can be used at a smaller aperture while still taking advantage (autofocus wise) of the widest aperture at time of focus.</p>

<p>For things like dancing candids, I do use smaller apertures--maybe f5.6, sometimes even f8, depending upon focal length used. This is because most of these kind of images have some depth--there are several subjects and they aren't all on the same plane. As you know, DOF is dependent upon focal length, f stop and subject distance. Using the zoom at 24mm, f2.8 is probably fine for these. Use it at 70mm and f2.8 may not have enough DOF for the subjects. Also, if you are standing close to your subjects, you have 'less' DOF. Keep in mind I have a full frame camera. Your 1.3 crop sensor will give slightly more DOF, generally.</p>

<p>For groups, I also use smaller apertures, because I try to back up to avoid distortion from wide focal lengths. When I do table shots, I sometimes need to go with f8 when I zoom out to the tele setting (for a shot of two people's faces across the table, for instance), because the DOF at the subject distances used amounts to less than a foot, and sometimes less than 6 inches on either side of the subject (at f5.6/f4). I have shot many images where one person was in focus and the other person wasn't, and they were sitting generally next to each other, just not exactly on the same plane. It does help that the best image quality is generally 2 stops or so smaller than the widest aperture, but that isn't the main reason I don't use f2.8 all the time on my zoom.</p>

<p>As for having focus assist with AI Servo--it is contradictory. I'm sure someone can explain things much more scientifically but I would think even attempting to do so would slow things down so much that it would make it impossible. I would think AI Servo's predictive brains would not be able to deal with focus assist's attempts to pinpoint focus, and vice versa. AI Servo is meant for moving subjects, so it is understandable that it would constantly be expecting to refocus, as well as interpret any motion (including camera motion) as a need to refocus--and get it wrong. Don't know if the 1DMkIII has an AI Focus setting, but don't ever use that for candids. It refocuses on the first thing that moves (of interprets as movement) in your scene.</p>

[zml]

<p><em>There are no "AF settings" that could help this other than changing to One Shot.</em></p>

<p>Hmmm... In AI Servo there are many settings on 1D3 (I happen to use that camera a lot) which radically affect AF performance, such as AF tracking method, tracking sensitivity, 1st/2nd image priority, assist points selection, et cetera. I submit that many AF errors reported with 1D3 are rooted in these settings (Canon has a white paper on that topic, BTW.) A camera such as 1D3 is a highly configurable tool and personally I don't believe that simply switching to One Shot mode would have fixed your AF issues.</p>

<p>Oh, and by "focuses well wide open" I meant that the focus is fine even when the aperture used is 2.8, the "wide open" setting for the lens in question.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Michael--I think you are missing the point a little. Switching to One Shot, in David's specific case, would definitely fix his AF issues (if not all, a lot of them), because with One Shot, focus assist will turn on (on the flash). With focus assist turned on and given a decent chance, I am pretty sure David's OOF rate would go down considerably. And, most subjects at parties (save for dancing shots) are relatively still, as in posing for a photo. When they are moving, such as when dancing, the motion is back and forth, not generally steady in one direction, which is the kind of motion AI Servo is good at. The back and forth motion--not so good.</p>

[madza_zulu]

<p>@David...I like Nadine's idea...ST-E2...really helps in very very low light to focus.</p>

[zml]

<p>Nadine - it is clear from your responses that you are not familiar with the 1D3: not all cameras are created equal. As for the AF assist beam: IMO there is nothing worse in event photography than projecting a bright-red assist beam pattern on your subjects unless you are after that priceless "WTF" expression :-)</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>>><strong>Michael</strong>, for AI you are correct. I have the white paper and have my camera set to traking priority so it wont shoot until focused. I have assist points active for some things. It tends to pick up other subjects when active when pinpoint selection is critical. For tracking, they are active(surrounding assist points). I shoot mostly sports at night so have read this extensively. I think most of these people were used to having a stobe of flash and beam from P&S's so it wasnt a big deal. They expect this stuff. Besides, their reaction time was so slow, a bomb could have been the focus assist and it wouldnt have mattered.</p>

<p>>><strong>Nadine</strong>, my camera doesnt have AI Focus(thank god). I hate it. No dancing at this party. If so I for sure would have been 5.6 or so. Either no rythm, or no coordination:-) I know what you mean. Sometimes, I go with f5.6 just for precaution for groups. Nothing worse than the end subject OOF. It was soo poorly lit, I needed wide open just to soak as much flash and ambient as possible. I guess for the 50mm, I could have stopped to f4 and dropped to 1/60-80th to bring back some ambient in the background. Or, quit being stingy and use higher ISO. Not like 3200 is unusable. I did buy this thing to be able to use 3200 without regret. I know what you mean about the AF Assist beam. The pattern"#" only happens around the center. I imagine any assist would have been enough to snag focus. It does real well in low light....usually. Though never tried this dark without AF assist:-)</p>

<p>Thanks everyone. I think I'll snag some fast primes for future "cave" use. Maybe 35L, for sure 50 f1.2 or 1.4. I already know I want the 85 1.2L. The 50 will be the first. At least I still have the thrifty 50 1.8 until then.</p>