Storing fb B&W prints overnight (or longer!) in water: Issues?

[keith_baker1]

Greetings Oh Helpful Ones:

I sometimes find myself with prints that need more washing or toning

yet it's way late at night. So far, I have allowed the prints to

soak overnight and into the next day in a water bath. I'm using

fiber based papers and was wondering if I may be causing any problems

or loosing any whiteners/brighteners with these marathon soaks. The

prints are 'behaving' otherwise.

 

With Thanks in Advance,

Keith

[eric_pederson]

The brighteners will wash out (which may be just as well since they might fade or discolor in years of display anyway) and if soaked long enough the emulsion will loosen. Why don't you just take them out of the water and let them dry overnight. The next morning, just reimmerse them and continue washing. If they are fixer-laden in the evening, then you would want to store them somewhere other than your normal drying racks so they don't contaminate them and this might cause a storage problem.

[jerry_flynn1]

I agree with Eric. I've left prints in the washer (actually, forgot them) and have had the emulsion slide right off! Makes a real mess in the washer.

 

As to the brighteners, Sprint makes a "converter" to add to their print stabilizer that restores the brighteners. I have used the product since I learned about it from Frank Gohlke many years ago. It does not seem to have any deleterious archival repercussions.

[dhananjay_n]

First, to answer your questions, yes, optical brighteners can leech out with long wash times and extended wash times can soften the emulsion to the point it slides off the support. Plus, the soft emulsion is very vulnerable to damage when you decide to get them out of the wash. Shorter wash times are certainly advisable.

 

The utility of optical brighteners depends considerably on the conditions under which the print will be exhibited. Most optical brighteners work based upon fluoroscence. That is, they take some of the UV light that falls on them and convert it into visible light, thereby presenting the illusion of 'whiter' whites. The principle is the same as laundry detergents. But ifthere isn't enough UV light in the room to begin with, the optical brighteners will not do anything.

 

Cheers, DJ

[Troll]

Better yet, just quit using that old fashioned FB paper and switch to modern RC. 2-5 minute wash and you're done. "Not Archival," you say? Just how long do you expect to live, anyhow?

[henry_a]

I've soaked prints overnight without any bad things happening that I could see. I use cold water, about 65 degrees F, toned and washed them the next day.

[dan_smith]

There are at least three basic problems you face in doing this. One mentioned is that some emulsions get soft to the degree that they will float right off the paper. Forte & Bergger both will do this more readily than most Kodak and Ilford papers. Then you have the problem of floating paper. Some papers sink while others start floating in the water. (Asked about this on photo.net some time back & they thought the question was 'frivolous') If you put the floaters below the sinkers you will keep a lot of paper on top of the wash partly out of the water. A great way to get stained prints. If you just have the floating papers partway out of the water you once again screw up your wash cycle. Then you have the problem of lack of agitation while the prints sit overnight. If you let them sit and did not agitate enough or get enough water interchange before letting them sit some may hold over a lot more fixer than others or hold it in different parts of the print. You discover this weeks, months or years later as sections start discoloring in no apparent pattern. Hard to track down just why when it happens later but lack of fresh water interchange can do it.

Try putting them in dividers or separate trays. Just so you keep them submerged & from sticking to each other. Soaking overnight shouldn't be a problem if you don't have higher rinse temperatures. Much over 75 & the emulsion softens faster with long soaks. If you keep it below 75 degrees you can leave it overnight with no problem. Get up in the morning & finish your rinse cycle. Better yet, soak in successive baths of water for 20 minutes or so each with 10 or more changes of water & I bet your fixer test solution shows very clean prints at the end. Allowing time for the fixer to diffuse out of the paper into the water & changing the water a number of times will work well. Heavy agitation is not needed, just the change of water & allowing time for the chemistry to diffuse in water. It also saves water as each successive soaking bath uses less than running water for an hour or two.

Check out David Vestal's articles on rinsing prints. I think it was "Mysteries of the Vortex" from PHotoTechniques magazine. Good articles from someone who tested this. I have tested the emulsion flaking with longer soaks and elevated temperatures when trying to emulate very old prints on modern papers. Works great as you can get the same faded, flaking look as 100 year old plus prints overnight in the darkroom.

[sal_santamaura]

Addressing only the brightener issue, I have personally tested Polymax Fine Art with an overnight soak. Definite loss of whiteness, compared to a duplicate print that received a one hour wash, regardless of what light is used to view them, and even noticable behind glass. Kodak warns against extended washing for this very reason. Ilford's technical data sheet for Multigrade IV FB claims that its brighteners will withstand any wash duration without degradation. I haven't tested that yet, but will one of these days.

[pete_su]

I've washed prints with long soaks in multiple trays of water,

including overnight.

 

Ilford and Agfa papers don't seem to mind.

[steve_swinehart]

What has not been brought up is whether you have used a fixer with hardener & the PH of the water. The emulsion will soften less if you have used a fixer with hardener & the PH of the water is slightly acidic. Softened water or alkaline PH will cause the gelatin to swell and soften. Colder water is also better as the gelatin will not swell as much in cold water.

 

I have left prints overnight and with no problems, and I have left them overnight and had the emulsion soften to the point the prints were ruined when handled because the emulsion was so soft.

 

The safest way to do this would be to use a fixer with hardener, test your water for PH & adjust the holding water to be slightly acidic if needed using a mild acid like citric acid. Hold them in cold water. If you are using city water treated with chlorine, the water out of the tap should be slightly acidic & shouldn't need adjustment.

[sal_santamaura]

I just checked Ilford's data sheet for Galerie FB. It makes the same claim of immunity to yellowing with prolonged washing.

[jeffrey_scott]

I have left FB prints in an archival washer overnight many times with no adverse effects. As to some paper's tendency to float out of the washer just get an acrilic lid to place on top of the washer.