lawyer groom wants his deposit back even though he is canceling

[garybuntonphotography]

<p>It seems so many people here wish to just fight, the only thing I can say is consider how small your town or market area is. Forget the legal aspect I think your contract states enough for you to keep the money, however I agree with many here your deposit was too small if it were half of what you weddings bring in you wouldn't have received a cancellation. Early in my career I photographed society weddings with very well to do families, I received a 2500. dollar deposit from a bride and her husband a sports agent choose three weeks before the wedding to change photographers, I assume for financial reasons my contract was similar to yours, I refunded her money. Here is why, I determined that in the long run I could make this work to my advantage, she was to have ten bridesmaids all of marrying age, her family was uncomfortable with the cancellation, as her mom liked my work as did many of her friends. I wrote a refund check and a very politically correct letter to society mom, and over the next two years garnered about 20,000 dollars worth of work from mom's friends and the family. i think my point is be polite, refund the money call bride or mom and ask about a whole family portrait at some point with new husband, and if their positive follow up and turn it too your advantage. cheers, Gary</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>He already lost by saying: "and I have selected another photographer". There will be no court hearing about this - perhaps he is not a fool, but that is not the end of it...</p>

<p>I believe he just cancelled your wedding work, right ? - he expects you to return the $200 and does not want you to show up for the wedding. <br>

If you do not return the $200, do you feel obligated to go and do the wedding?, or you already considered the wedding work cancelled by his letter? He is not clear about that.</p>

<p>If you do not return the $200, he perhaps deserves the option not to hire the other photographer, and could expect you to do the wedding ? <br>

Let say nothing happens and you keep the money, the wedding day comes and what do you intend to do ? Think if you really want to do that weddning ? Make sure you make it clear in the money return refusal letter, and there will be no surprises on the wedding day. </p>

<p>Perhaps perspective of loss of $200 may change his mind, and he may still insist on you for doing the job? </p>

[john_demott]

<p>Forget about the fact that he is a lawyer--your contract is fine, your position is reasonable, and he's not about to file a lawsuit over $200 anyway. And forget about all the attempts to characterize his motivation (for all you know, his uncle may have twisted his arm to hire a higher priced photographer that he's not happy about and his letter just reflects his discontent). This is a simple question of customer relations. Politely explain why you have a no-refund policy--maybe he truly doesn't understand (maybe he <strong>does</strong> understand but give him the benefit of the doubt). Then handle the situation like any other customer. If you want to keep the money without apologies, do so. But it would be worth considering the value of a goodwill gesture just to avoid having someone in town bad-mouthing you. Perhaps you could offer a discount on a weekday portrait sitting, or offer to apply some of the deposit to other photographic services. There are lots of ways you can keep your self respect and keep the deposit while still maintaining a customer friendly demeanor.</p>

[scott_b.4]

<p>don't let him scare you that he is a lawyer. as a lawyer, he should now how to read a contract and what non refundable means. He should not be telling you, "should me more than enough time for you to find another client." </p>

[aldrich]

<p>The only way you will have a decent chance of booking a wedding date three weeks away is to locate some kind of "Engaged Procrastinators Convention." If you find such a convention, don't forget to jack your prices up for the desperate couples! j/k</p>

<p>By the way, lots of good advice on this thread...thanks to all, we can all learn from the myriad of advice given!</p>

[dave_trunks]

<p>In Australia we have an organisation call the office of fair trading which clearly spells out your rights as a business as well as consumer. All of that info is easily accessible to anybody that wants it.<br>

It may be worth checking if there is a similar body avilable to you in your area and if there is seek their advice.<br>

As times get tougher it would be good advice for anybody in business to be well versed in their local consumer law as problems like these are sure to increase. Advice in forums like these while often helpfull and generously contributed wont help you when you are standing in front of a judge. Cheers</p>

[wade_roth]

<p>Remember, you don't get what you don't ask for. He's asking for what he wants which is effectively trying to renegotiate the contract so he can get the deposit back. This sort of thing doesn't surprise me from attorneys, after all, they are trained negotiators. You don't have to accept the new terms. You can stay firm with the original agreement. It doesn't appear to me that he has a legal claim to the deposit under the original agreement.<br>

...but I'm not an attorney and I don't play one on TV either.<br>

Good luck.<br>

--Wade</p>

[jefflipsman]

<p>There is an old saying: a lawyer who represents himself in court has a fool for a client.</p>

[rogerjporter]

<p>Hmmm, no one yet has picked up on the fact that he has chosen another photographer based on the recommendation of a family member... that can only mean one thing... he has hired the infamous Uncle Joe!!! We have all seen and heard it hundreds of times before i'm sure, the notorious Uncle with the 10x zoom point and shoot or better yet the rebel xt with not one but both kit lenses! Drat, he has stolen another wedding from us! I quit!</p>

[michael s.]

<p>My posts were based upon the assumption that you do<strong> not</strong> <strong> </strong> want to refund the deposit.</p>

<p>Gary Bunton points out that depending upon other considerations, there could actually be valid reasons to consider refunding the money. And he recalls a personal experience to support that position. </p>

<p>That's of course a business decision -- not a legal one -- and I have no quarrel with Gary's suggestion that you consider it. Only you can decide whether that might ultimately be in your interest.</p>

[martyphotoarts]

<p>Hey, Tyler, you have no idea what your talking about. Although the average person probably would agree with you just on an intuitive basis, the opposite tends to be true. Attorneys do not love going to court, they love getting paid. They'll go to court on behalf of clients, only when the stakes are high enough to warrant the investment, and only if they feel they stand a reasonably good chance of winning. Other than that, it ain't happenin'.<br>

In another career I used to be required to "work" with my client's attorneys. They all, everyone, hated the thought of having to drag their own business before one of their peers. An attorney will definitely attempt intimidation and bluster all day long, but court they avoid.<br>

Now that's not to say that this young upstart might not try to throw his self-perceived weight around, thinking he's all that and a bag O' chips cause he's a lawyer now. But like George pointed out, this is not exactly a Perry Mason murder case, so how much time can you spend before a civil magistrate? Not much - the obvious answer. Kacy, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by sticking to your guns and letting the groom squirm. I mean, it's unlikely they'll give you any referrals for simply and quietly handing back money that is rightly yours, isn't it?</p>

[darrengold]

<p>What an opportunity to have some fun and get your own back!! He is asking you to refund to his workplace to let you know that he is a lawyer and to try to frighten you. He shouldn't use his work in any capacity for private matters. It's one of those unwritten things in most firms and mandatory at others.<br>

Phone the law firm and get the name of the senior partner. Write a short note to the senior partner explaining that the deposit is non refundable as stated on the contract and enclose a copy of the contract and letter the Groom wrote to you naming the law firm.<br>

Believe me, you'll never hear from him again!!<br>

Regards</p>

[christopher hartt dallas]

<p>Ha! You might consider how many times the lawyer has given back his retainer :-)<br>

I do have a law degree and a license...but choose to photograph instead. Under any statutory or equitable (regular or small claims court) in any jurisdiction...you're OK. I wouldn't even respond to the request.<br>

The BBB or other organization might tote up a bad grade for you upon sufficient gripe from the client, but that's another issue entirely. The BBB tends to be a bit prejudiced toward anyone who doesn't subscribe to their somewhat costly database.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>What is the point of getting a deposit for wedding; marking on your calendar "as being taken" and telling other possible clients "it is taken" if one whusses out and gives the deposit back?<br>

<br /> Maybe I just fell off the turnup truck; but a non refundable deposit is older than any living man on the planet earth. Maybe there are some stupid pills floating around; a sense of being bullied is OK to some; or some whussy gas is being emitted causing folks to be steam rollered and liking it? Something is amock if folks do not understand what a non refundable deposit is; ie you cheated in school or have no business sense. Call, the chaps bluff.<br /> <br /> Maybe you could have another lawyer send the chap a refund for 1 dollar with a check for another law firm; and have the reasons letter carbon copied the legal board in your state; to "educate" the chap'; or let others learn that he cannot read; or is bullying the public. At some point its good to let others squirm; exposed.</p>

[christopher hartt dallas]

<p>Just a note. Legally, the fact that you referred to a "retainer" and not a "deposit" is important. A "deposit", generally speaking, is money given for future consideration (photo services) to be performed. If those services aren't performed, there is an argument that the "deposit" should be returned.<br>

A "retainer" 'retains the good or service' to be performed because a time or scarcity situation exists. The "retainer" is not directly related to the future performance or delivery of goods or services while the "deposit" is.<br>

I don't presume to offer any legal advice, but if you're a photographer reading this, figure out the difference between a "retainer" and a "deposit."</p>

[alicia_williams1]

<p>There is a great article in Professional Photography Mag, that says pretty much what Chris said, but goes just a bit further.<br>

It should be called "monies paid. Retainer is NON-refundable by definition, and by definition Deposit is something you get back. Like a soda can you have a 5 cent deposit which you get back.<br>

The contract you have is as good as the lawyer behind it. </p>

[dan_calistrate2]

<p>If you can afford the $200 I would write something along the lines:<br>

"I will not refund the $200. Our contract clearly states it is not refundable.<br>

Attached however please find a $200 wedding gift for the bride and groom.<br>

Bye & good luck to you..." </p>

<p> </p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>I appreciate that couples want to go elsewhere sometimes. In most cases I will not hold their retainer, though like you, my retainer is a non refundable amount.</p>

<p>In your case, it seems they are within my limit of time (90 days) to rebook a date. That is to say, I would not be able to rebook the date, and based on that information and the fact that your retainer is just a fraction of my own, I would in this case be hard pressed to refund it.</p>

<p>How about a letter to explain that although you appreciate they are using a friend, you have a clear policy that no refunds are given in those circumstances. Then perhaps offer a credit toward a future purchase of prints from a a session with them.</p>

<p>??</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Another Wedding tip for the day :)<br>

<br /> Now we know why crafty Marc Williams calls his:</p>

<p><em> I call mine a "Non-refundable Security Deposit </em></p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Its well and good to use the labels of retainer and deposit correctly but don't buy in to the notion that these LABELS are magical words. You could call the refund/cancellation part of a contract just about anything but what actually counts is how the wording of the contract works. Does it spell out that the fee is for holding a date ect or does it merely read that it is some sort of initial payment. You could get the titles of retainer or deposit backwards but which do you think will be followed? The label or how the contract actually works?</p>

[edlynn]

<p>Wow, so many repsonses! Apologies in advance if anyone already said this, I gave up reading and went to skimming about halfway... There's some good and bad advice on here. First of all, you have a contract, you're entitled to keep the $200 and that's that, at least, that's how it looks to me.</p>

<p>But you can't make every business decision based on what you're <em>entitled</em> to. Sometimes you have to think beyond that. Sometimes it's about <em>ethics</em>. And since she booked you back in August, you've held this date for them for a significant time, and ethically, you're in the right to keep the money. If this had been a lucky last minute booking in the first place, it may have been more ethical to refund the money.</p>

<p>Sometimes it's about what's wise, not what's fair, too. The guy being a lawyer could mean a lot of things, but him being a lawyer who doesn't respect a contract and tries to break it, and also being a lawyer who doesn't respect the notion of a retainer, which lawyers themselves use extensively, means that this guy is probably a piece of work. You're probably very glad you're not going to have more dealings with him - now he hasn't something more substantial to sink his teeth into. I think he's probably a bully, and the other photographer is his choice, and the reason you're getting cancelled is she chose you, not him. A real stoneage jerk, is my guess. The other photographer will probably catch the worst of it before it's all over. So thank your lucky stars he cancelled.</p>

<p>So is it wise to return the money? I don't know. Are you a member of any trade organizations? If so, notify them and see if they'll have<em> their attorneys</em> send his office a letter. My guess is, when he realizes you're backed up by a trade group, which keeps attorneys of their own on retainer, and there are more of them, and they're well funded by dues paying members, he'll back down. If you aren't, I would refuse, once, and see what he does. If he files a small claims action, settle it out of court for the $200.</p>

<p>Then do two things...</p>

<p>1 - Rewrite your contract.</p>

<p>2 - Up your deposit. That way you won't get used this way again. I do 1/3rd down, non refundable.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[david_smith99]

<p>Kacy,<br>

I am a lawyer, and a photographer.<br>

This is very simple. All you need to do is respond to the client's husband refusing to return the $200 on the grounds that this was contracted as being unrefundable.<br>

If he pursues it further (which is highly unlikely), then politely repeat the refusal to refund.<br>

If he decides to pursue a court action, then don't worry about it. You can represent yourself in small claim court--you don't need a lawyer (in fact they're not allowed in small claims court). It won't cost you much, if anything. He needs to do all the work in filing the complaint. You just need to reiterate your refusal on grounds you have a binding contract. If it goes to small claims court, just show up and show the contract to the judge.<br>

Remember that all your correspondance with the groom could be produced in court, so don't say anything more than you have to in case is may create a bad impression of you in the eyes of the judge. You don't want to appear unreasonable. Repeating the refusal to refund on contract grounds is all you need to do.<br>

Best of luck,<br>

David</p>

[tylert]

<p>I am also an attorney, and you are fine. He is attempting to bully you.<br>

Respond via certified mail with a copy of the signed retainer agreement with a simple letter stating the terms of the original agreement.</p>

 

[johnhodgephotography]

<p>I am not a lawyer, and what follows is simply my opinion/interpretation of the situation as I understand it.<br>

<br /> Your original post shows that your contract states, "If the client chooses to break this contract and cancel wedding photography services, clients agree to notify the photographer in writing with signature and date of cancellation." Did you get a signed and dated notice in writing, or just a simple email?<br>

<br /> If all that you got was an email, then, it seems to me, that the contract has not legally been terminated. If you keep his $200, then it's probably wise to go ahead and show up ready to take pictures on the big day unless you receive proper notice that the client wants out of the contract.</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>I agree that he is fishing. But whatever you do, be polite. It does not sound at this stage that he is being vindictive and if you keep a good relationship they may decide to use your services after all (or recommend you to friends/family)!<br>

You can always try the trick the lawyers themselves love to pull. You hold out and let him spend money and time arranging a date in court. You can really drag it out. As soon as you receive the court summons and need a lawyer's time yourself *then* you decide if you want to carry on - if necessary you can always pay up the day before the hearing. In other words, make him work for his money. If he pressures you time after time without actually taking legal steps, write to him saying that you consider he actions to be unreasonable and vexatious - that will make it clear he has to act and if he doesn't say that you will countersue because of the stress and upset he has caused you.<br>

By the way, I don't think this 'pay up within 5 days' will add anything to the refund he will expect. It is a lawyer's trick to scare you to act quickly and without thinking.<br>

The immediate step should be to write to him immediately stating that the contract made clear the retainer was paid on the clear understanding that you have not taken other work for that date. And that choosing to go with another provider is not reasonable reason for leaving you without work on that day. As an example, think about the conditions of booking your holiday - the company will often refund your money in extreme circumstances (such as a family bereavement) but no-one in their right mind would refund you because you found the same holiday cheaper somewhere else! <br>

He may respond that the notice he has given is sufficient time for you to find alternative work. But if you can honestly say that your average booking time is 20 weeks in advance then this is clearly not the case - and you could head this off at the pass by saying so in your first reply to him. Nor should it be your responsibility to make special efforts beyond your normal business practice to find work to fill that day.<br>

But if you do find alternative work to fill the slot then you may want to consider repaying the retainer as a mark of good faith. Be careful about saying this to him in advance. he could easily twist your words to mean you made an undertaking to find other work.</p>