one umbrella set up for formals in church

[manuel barrera houston,]

A long time ago, I did use an umbrella like what you show as the set up with cord on a stand set my 550EX to my right and a reflector to the left of the group, it worked fine. But I would not go that route again unless I had to.

[etienne_poisson]

www.strobist.blogspot.com/

[larrybc]

<p>Nadine Ohara wrote:</p>

<p><i>Also--you can try the umbrella as shoot through. It might not waste as much light, but it can hot spot, although that might not be a bad thing for formals, particularly if you pose your groups in slight U shapes. I would think it would be even more important to fill the umbrella fully. </i></p>

<p>Nadine, wouldn't using the umbrella as a shoot-through waste MORE light, since some of the light will be reflected from the umbrella and go away from the subject?

</p>

<p>larsbc</p>

[steve_c.5]

Anytime you run into front focusing/back focusing issues, remember you can always switch the lens to manual focus and estimate the distance yourself, and set the lens accordingly using the numbers on it. That's what they put them on the lens for. And wider apertures will give you narrower depth of field to work with.

 

Don't always trust the LCD to tell you if you're focused. It's a tiny little screen compared to how the images look on a real monitor. Either use the zoom in feature of your camera to check focus, or download your test shots to a laptop and check them on the scene.

[richard_wang11]

Ann,

 

Nice Strobist set-up.

 

But before you do anything else, you should know that your set-up should be flipped around.

 

Note in the below photo that the knob on the flash clamp always faces you.

 

That's why you flash is off center.

 

Since you've got the Strobist set-up you should try David Hobby's Q and A.

 

Here's are two that should answer your question in the Lighting 102 Archives.

 

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/06/lighting-102-unit-11-position-angle.html

 

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/06/lighting-102-12-position-distance.html

 

Finally if you've got any additional question about the strobist set-up try go to the flickr strobist group

 

[richard_wang11]

Set up

[anna_aasen]

Richard - you're the MAN! That was exactly my problem! It's so crazy how the smallest change makes all the difference -

just goes to show you it takes a village to raise a photographer! Thanks!

[anna_aasen]

Wilson - you too! Thanks!

[picturesque]

Richard--really good links to strobist articles. That's a good catch re the stand adapter. I didn't notice that myself--I have one of those but I use Norman stand adapters myself. They are more compact, with less 'stuff' sticking out.

 

Larry--you might be right. To tell you the truth, I've never really experimented with shoot through much. Should do a test one day.

 

Regarding light distance and umbrellas--I used to, and still do, sometimes, use the key light bare headed (no umbrella). Because of the distance needed between group and flash (for working distance and coverage), theoretically, an umbrella doesn't do a whole lot to contribute to soft light. However, when I can, I do use a large umbrella--46", and have thought I might get a 60" one. It makes a slight difference. Also, since I use Sunpak 120Js, the parabolic reflector is a bit nicer than shoemount reflectors when used direct.

[mt4x4]

Good info in here. I'm looking at getting an umbrella setup and this helps. Thanks all.

[steve_hovland]

Nadine - I'm getting bored with all soft light. Think of the old Hollywood stuff done with fresnel lights. I'm reading an old book about master photographers and one picture uses a spot straight on plus the edge of another light for fill.

[steve_hovland]

Anna- Put the bounce umbrella on the same side as the hard key light if you want strong chiaroscuro. Your flash head may not turn past 90 degrees on both sides, but you could turn 90 either way and bounce off a flat reflector (zip disk or foam core) or umbrella.

[willperson]

Lots of good information in this post. Being an amateur myself, I really enjoy reading about what some other photographers go through, as it sometimes makes me feel like I am somewhat on par with the rest of the world. Best way to learn is to make mistakes right? (not referring to this specific instance Ann)

 

Just out of curiosity, how big are the groups you will be shooting? I am certain that many others will share their opinion on this...but if you groups are big enough....say 3 rows or more....I would be tempted to shoot at 5.6, or maybe even 8, depending on the size of the group.

 

Opinions?

[steve_hovland]

I have a shoot on Monday of 45 people at an industrial plant.

 

We will either use a scissors lift or a catwalk to get enough height.

 

My main lights will be two 300 WS monolights with Rosco Light Tough Frost to take the hard edge off.

 

I expect the people to be between 15 and 25 feet away so I'm thinking hard about depth of field required.

 

I'll shoot RAW on a crop camera.

[picturesque]

William P.--DOF is dependent upon subject distance, focal length and f stop. In addition, a cropped sensor camera 'gives' about 1.3 stops more DOF. Download dofmaster from their website and play with the calculator. f4 on a cropped sensor camera may be fine if you are using the wider focal lengths. The focus point should be placed about 1/3 of the way into the depth of the group. f5.6 and f8 won't hurt anything, providing a margin of error.

 

Steve H.--Hard light is fine. I use my key lights unmodified sometimes. However, I was questioning the use of soft fill. Since the key light creates the main shadows, it seems a waste to me to soften the fill light. In fact, you don't normally see the fill light shadows, or at least, one usually tries for not seeing them. And, as I mentioned above, my Sunpaks have parabolic reflectors and these are not as 'pinched' looking as bare shoemount reflectors, although the difference is slight.

[sheer]

Sorry I haven't read through all the posts so I'm probably repeating something someone else has already said but I have a few suggestions. I would recommend flipping the umbrella round and using it as a shoot-through since that gives a nice soft light. Second, for a fill light you can use a white wall. If you're taking your photos near somewhere with a white wall just have the group stand with the wall to one side and the umbrella to the other. Better yet, if there's a large window have them stand near the window and use that as a fill light. Unless its a very large group you should be able to move the umbrella close enough to shoot at iso 100-200 at f/6.3 or higher which will give you a crisper image. If you use a window for ambient you'll need to control your shutter speed to get enough light but otherwise I would set it quite high to get a crisper image. By the way I would highly recommend getting some cheap remote transmitters for the flash so you can take your 580 off the camera and have two flashes to work with. You also can use a tripod as a substitute for a second stand but you also need another umbrella and umbrella head.

[steve_hovland]

Nadine- the picture I was referencing is called "The Corset" by Horst for Vogue in 1936. You can find it by googling images. He used one hot light straight on the model, one feathered for fill, and one for the background.

[thomas_hardy1]

I agree with Sheer El-Showk about using the radio transmitter. You could then bounce the 580 into the umbrella to give

nice off camera light. It would be nice to have the power of that flash. Adjust the power of the flash according to the

histogram, and balance it to the f-stop. The other flash could be set up almost anywhere for the effect you want. It

doesn't even have to be used with an umbrella.

 

Focusing of the 20D.. yep I agree to carefully manual focus if you don't trust it on autofocus.

 

Of course everything is set to manual .. lens(focus), aperture, shutter speed, flash, but don't fret, it's easier than it seems.

 

My only question which I didn't see answered above is why ISO 400?

[steve_c.5]

Thomas, raising ISO for indoor shots in general is done to increase sensor sensitivity and capture more of the ambient lighting. Using longer shutter speeds does this too, but if you drag it too long, you can get blur, even with shots which are posed and static. So, combining higher ISO and longer shutter speeds of reasonable length helps us capture the ambient without relying solely on the strobes to light the scene, which tends to blow the ambience and mood of the room. I like to use just enough strobe to separate the subjects from an ambient-lit background. I use enough of higher ISO and shutter speed to capture that ambient light from the room. The only penalty for higher ISO is noise, but better camera bodies keep this to a minimum.

[manuel barrera houston,]

need at least 2 f stop difference in background for dragging the shutter without risking blur, I have gone as low as shutter speed 8 hand held with no blur, but had a very dark background. the other thing you could practice is high speed flash which works for freezing movement but again there has be sufficient difference in f stops to be on the safe side.

[willperson]

Nadine, thanks for the info. Interesting information on dofmaster.

[willperson]

Nadine...ahh yes, see, this is why I am amateur :)

 

Have a great weekend everyone.

 

Will

[picturesque]

Respectfully, Steve H.--I can't see how softening the fill makes a difference. I have seen that Horst image before, and as you say, the fill is produced with the edge of a parabolic light, which isn't necessarily soft--maybe soft-er than the full, direct light. In any case, this is a fashion/movie photo, and we're talking about wedding formals (not of movie stars, either). In the image, the key light creates hard shadows, as it should. I don't particularly see the influence of softer fill.

[steve_hovland]

<p>Nadine - I basically agree.<br>

Now, how have we all arrived at the notion that the edge of shadows has to be soft? Perhaps they need to be grey most of the time, but soft all of the time? :-)<br>

Some of my initial concern was also to maximize the effect of her flashes. If she needs the 580 for commander then the weaker light is being further weakened by being used in the umbrella. It might be interesting to try hard key/soft fill with a 3:1 ratio.<br>

May be hard-edged shadows could be part of a new look. For adventurous brides, anyway?</p>