D700 with SB800 (using CLS) and Vivitar (using wired connection)

[captain_jack]

Hi,

 

I have tried looking for the solution in many forums but didn't find any answers. Hopefully, you guys would be

able to help me. I have D700, which I often use in commander mode with my SB800. I have a old flash unit, which I

have used with D700 in a wired setup (without D700 in a commander mode). I would like to use my D700 with SB800

(in remote setup using commander mode) along with the wired Vivitar. The problem is, in this setup (when used

along with remote SB800), the wired Vivitar doesn't not fire at all. I might have been missing some setup here.

 

Please help.

 

I do not care, if Vivitar doesn't work in TTL mode. I just want to use it as a additional source of light. I can

easily compensate my SB800 for any adjustments I might want to make to the light output.

 

 

Thanks

[Jerry_]

You might be able to work with the Vivitar in Manual mode, period. The pre-flash needed to get the SB-800 light just right will cause the Vivitar to fire at the wrong time -- unless you find a optical slave "button" that will allow the pre-flash to be ignored. My best guess....

 

 

 

Nikon's flash unit design (if everything works as it should) will be touch-and-go with an additional 'manual' flash adding to the mix.

[captain_jack]

"The pre-flash needed to get the SB-800 light just right will cause the Vivitar to fire at the wrong time "

 

I thought pre-flash will trigger only the wireless remote flashes and not the wired ones. In my setup, Vivitar is wired to D700 body. And the problem is Vivitar doesn't get fired at all, when used along with Sb800(in remote mode).

 

So the setup is:

D700 is commander mode

SB800 in remote mode

Vivitar wired to D700 (it has no manual mode on it)

[frank_skomial]

The remotely located SB-800 in CLS "remote" mode disables the PC sync socket on the SB-800 side, that is

normally covered by the rubber plug. There is no point to connect anything there by the wire, or to the hot foot of

the remote SB-800 via any adapter.

 

If you need to use remote Vivitar or any non-compatible with CLS flash in combined exposure with the CLS flashes,

you must use radio triggering, and not optical triggering, or use long wires.

 

You need to understand the difference between "commanding" and "triggering", as well as CLS operations

(preflash /testing / setting CLS flashes after test results through iTTL, then final triggering when shutter opens).

 

There are few ways you could combine the Nikon CLS pre-flash base automatic flash commading/testing that

happens before the shutter gets open, with incompatible external flash triggered via radio signal, and use only the

CLS final triggering signal electrically/or by radio, that happens when shutter is open.

 

For this to make work, you must understand that combining incompatible flashes with optical commanding will not

work without additional equipment that exists but is unreliable yet. That is why you need to use remote incompatible

flashes by triggering via radio signals.

 

Once you get pair of Pocket Wizards (PW), you are ready.

 

How it will work:

 

Pocket Wizard transmitter installed in camera hot shoe, or in camera PC auxiliary socket, will only receive final CLS

trigger signal when shutter is open. It will not receive any signal when CLS issues series of CLS preflash

commandingand/testing optical signals.

 

The wonder of the CLS is that the flash amount determination needed by the CLS flashes is determined during

preflash time, and during exposure time when the shutter is open the CLS flashes do not alter CLS flashes amout

of output and just produces what was determined few milliseconds earlier during preflash time.

 

That is the CLS output will provide correct exposure, but you cannot influence the CLS flashes outout by use of

incompatible flashes. You can spoil the exposure by extra light, but not the CLS flashes output.

 

CLS is totaly unaware of any additional output from incompatible flashes that could possibly be also triggered by the

final CLS triggering signal. This signal is optical and electric when shutter is open. Optical is the last one in the

CLS sequence and finally triggers remote CLS fashes (commanding was done earlier). The electric final trigger

signal is produced on the hot shoe, and on PC socket on the camera.

 

If SB-800 is set as "remote" CLS flash, the PC sync socket on that flash gets disabled, as you already had

discovered that fact.

 

If you place SB-800 in the camera hot shoe, the PC sync socket on the SB-800 body will get enabled and provide

additional way to trigger via radio means, to any flash or PW connected there.

 

You are saying "when used along with remote SB800, the wired Vivitar doesn't not fire at all" - I believe you wired

Vivitar to the remote SB-800, so you have your explanation why it does not fire. (Nikon's fault in disabling that

socket - or just protection of CLS remote flashes ?)

 

If you do "the wired Vivitar" is connected to PW receiver, both remotely, and PW transmitter is connected to

camera PC sync socket, or camera hot shoe, or SB-800 sitting in the camera hot shoe, you have your 3 possible

solutions.

 

Note: D300 does not work this way in every possible shutter/flash synchronization modes while the D200 does, so

read your camera manual, as possibly rear shutter blade sync,or other mode may not work there ? - I do not know

the latest cameras behaviors in all modes.

 

When you fire CLS flashes, with incompatible flashes that the CLS is not aware of, most most likely you must

direct remote incompatible flash light in a way that will not cause overexposure of the correctly produced amout by

the set of CLS flashes. There are numerous flash placement scenarios that prevent this...this is getting two long...

 

You are responsible for not overexposing the picture in this combined setup of auto controllable and not controllable

flashes.

 

This was discussed few times, ... but if you understand well the CLS, and your camera

triggering / commanding ability, and the PW radio triggering, you are well on the way to make use of all flashes that

you could possible gather, and use during exposure time when shutter is open..

 

 

 

[captain_jack]

Hi Frank Skomial,

 

Thanks a ton for the wonderful explanation with some scenario analysis. Now, I completely understand why pc sync socket on the camera body gets disabled when camera is in commander mode. That was the key to understand this issue. Overexposure in this case, will be taken care by placing the flash at pre-determined location.

 

I would have to read again the manual included with the camera. But I am sure no manual can explain the things this detailed! :) ;)

 

Thanks again!

[captain_jack]

Hi Frank,

 

Some confusion here.

 

You wrote: CLS is totaly unaware of any additional output from incompatible flashes that could possibly be also triggered by the final CLS triggering signal.

My answer: YES. Completely agree.

 

You wrote: This signal is optical and electric when shutter is open. Optical is the last one in the CLS sequence and finally triggers remote CLS fashes (commanding was done earlier).

My answer: YES. Understood too.

 

You wrote: The electric final trigger signal is produced on the hot shoe, and on PC socket on the camera.

My answer: NOT TRUE IN MY CASE. This is exactly the problem I have mentioned in my initial post.

The trigger is not produced on PC socket on the camera, to which my wired flash is connected.

 

Sorry, if I was not clear in my initial post. :(

[frank_skomial]

... I was typing before you provided additional information... time zone difference, and long story...

 

When you pop up the camera built-in flash to use it as a commander, the camera hot shoe perhaps will always get

disabled. If you connected Vivitar there by a wire or an adapter?, Vivitar perhaps will not fire. Also, depending on

shutter / internal flash mode, the PC Sync socket on the camera could get disabled as well. Read the "NOTE" in

my prior text, and your camera manual.

 

Try this:

 

1. make sure the camera is not in the rear sync shutter mode..

 

2. do not use the built-in flash at all, for this test only. Once you make a successful step, you will try another one...

 

3. Insert SB-800 into the camera hot shoe, (it cannot be in "REMOTE" mode). Try in iTTL or iTTL/BL first.

 

4. Plug the cable into the PC sync socket on the side of SB-800 flash and wire your Vivital the way you do, (we

really do not know how you do that ? - so all of this could fail.).

 

5. Take flash photo in front of a mirror, to see registration of both flashes lights in the picture.

 

Then, try the same, except in point 3 set SB-800 as a commander. Here you have no other CLS remote flash in

this case, so it may not work with D700 ? since the camera may not detect any CLS remote and default to a

different mode like iTTL. Try this as well in front of a mirror.

 

Tell us how your progresses.

 

Alternatively, you could use PC sync socket on F700 camera, but it could be more restrictive than the PC sync

socket on the SB-800 flash. I do not have D700 camera.

[frank_skomial]

"The electric final trigger signal is produced on the hot shoe, and on PC socket on the camera. My answer: NOT

TRUE IN MY CASE." - that is because the popup flash disabled them ? or you use a camera shutter sync mode

that also disables them?

 

Nikon really tries you to get more Nikon brand flashes this way...extending the limitations with newer cameras even

more than with older cameras like D70 or D200. That is why there are so many limitations (disabilities) there...

[captain_jack]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for your help again.

I am NOT connecting Vivitar to SB800 at all. Also, I am not using camera hot shoe at all. Rather I am using on-camera sync port to connect Vivitar by the wire.

 

I will perform the tests as mentioned by you and report back the results.

 

Just to make one more point here:

I think I was able to use Vivitar (connected to on-camera sync port), and SB800 on camera hot shoe (in TTL mode) successfully last time when I was at a portrait shootout. But not when SB800 was off camera and in remote mode(and camera in commander mode).

 

I have my MBA classes (after work) and will perform all the tests in a day or so and will let you know.

 

 

Thanks again for taking time. :)

[frank_skomial]

Sounds like you are confirming my theory that the camera popup flash disables things...

 

" I think I was able to use Vivitar (connected to on-camera sync port), and SB800 on camera hot shoe (in TTL mode) successfully last time when I was at a portrait shootout. But not when SB800 was off camera and in remote mode(and camera in commander mode)."

 

Since I am getting D700 shortly, it would be beneficial to learn from you what else Nikon disabled in the new cameras. Some flash limitations started showing in D300, as opposed to older cameras. Seems this trend continues...

 

Good Luck.

[mark_sirota1]

I wonder whether you could just connect the Vivitar directly to the SB-800, by way of PC connections. (I apologize if I missed that experiment somewhere in the thread above.)

[andy a.]

If you're willing to give up CLS, you can use the sb-800 in optical slave (su-4 I think?) mode and connect it to the vivatar by pc sync cord. Then both will trigger by the D700 popup (needs to be manual as well to avoid pre-flash).

 

Another manual option is cords daisy-chained from the D700 to each flash.

 

Does the vivitar have an optical slave mode? You can go totally cordless (still no CLS) if so.

[captain_jack]

Hi Mark & Andy,

 

Vivitar I have, was made by dinosaurs :).

There are only 2 ways to fire it. 1) Put it on the camera body (canon), or 2) Connect it with a wire attached to the camera body sync port.

 

Currently I do not have budget to buy fancy light setup to my liking. So, was just trying to make use of any junk I am finding to better my pics. :)

 

Thanks! :)

[mark_sirota1]

Captain, are you saying that your Vivitar has a PC port? If so, what we're suggesting is try connecting it to the PC port on your SB-800, rather than the PC port on your camera.

 

I think this may work even with the SB-800 as a CLS remote, though Andy says it'll only work with the SB-800 in SU-4 slave mode.

[captain_jack]

Hi Mark,

 

OK. I will try that too.

 

Thanks :)

[bill_rhodes]

Captain... I know what you are doing. I did this experiment with a d700, sb800 and a vivitar 285 with a cactus wireless remote.

 

I find that the pc port on the camera and on the flash are both disabled in cls when the pop-up flash is on. In all modes.

 

When I put the sb800 on the hotshoe, the port on the camera and the port on the flash work.

 

Does that help?

[captain_jack]

Hi All,

 

I did some testing this morning. And the results are (similar to what Bill experienced or Frank was saying):

 

1. When in CLS mode, pc port on camera body in disabled. Result is Vivitar doesn't fire, but SB800 does.

2. When in CLS mode, when Vivitar connected to SB800. Result is Vivitar doesn't fire.

3. When in TTL mode. SB800 on camera hot shoe and Vivitar connected to pc port on camera body. Both flashes used to fire. But for some reason in my test this morning, Vivitar didn't fire.

 

Don't know maybe my Vivitar has gone bad. All the startup lights and high freq sound from Vivitar are still very much there, but it doesn't want to fire. If I remember correctly, using the setup# 3 earlier, Vivitar did fire, but not this morning. If my flash is bad, then it might have made the whole testing invalid.

 

I will test the pc port on camera with SB800 to see, if pc port is working. I might have to buy a new (but cheap) flash to do this again.

 

Thanks for all of your time and help.

[photom]

<p>This is an old discussion but still relevant to many who own newer Nikon DSLRs and SB800. I just bought an D700 and am now possibly going to purchase a SB800.</p>

<p>It is apparent to me that the D700 body pc sync port is disabled when the D700 body flash is raised. This is easy for me to verify and I did.</p>

<p>The above discussion is a little confusing to me because of the terms used. The term CLS refers to an overall Nikon flash/exposure measuring system and probably should not be used because it is so general in its scope. iTTL is the Nikon version of through the lens metering with a Nikon flash so I will use this term to contrast with manual flash mode, or traditional auto flash mode.</p>

<p>Frank earlier says that if an SB800 is attached to the D700 directly via hot shoe, or via Nikon sync cable, and set to iTTL mode, then both the D700 body pc sync port and the SB800 pc sync port are both enabled and able trigger manual flashes via hard wire or radio triggers. If this is correct, this is very good news for me for my needs. Captain Jack, above seems to have had some problems with the body pc sync port despite keeping the body flash down.</p>

<p>CAN ANYONE ELSE CONFIRM THAT BOTH THE d700 BODY PC PORT AND SB800 PC PORT ARE ENABLED AS LONG AS THE D700 FLASH IS KEPT DOWN? Otherwise, no need for me to buy an expensive SB800.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

[charles_jacques3]

<p>Here's a little trick I have discovered to run a flash in CLS mode off camera, but still be able to fire other CLS flashes AND manual flashes via the PC sync.<br>

<br /> The key is to get an iTTL extension cord that connects the master flash (in my case an SB-800) to the camera hot shoe. This lets the camera think the flash is attached to the camera and both the pc sync ports on the camera AND on the SB-800 are active.<br>

<br /> I am successfully controlling an SB-800 off camera in TTL, an SB-600 in TTL (entirely wireless this one) and an old SB-24 (via the PC sync port).<br>

<br /> Search for "10M 33ft Nikon TTL Off Camera FLASH sync Cable Cord" in ebay for the iTTL extension cord.<br>

<br /> Here are some pics made with this setup and an $8 bed sheet:<br>

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4829326&l=731a2d1219&id=747662054<br /> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4837735&l=e2aaaf3d0c&id=747662054<br /> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4837736&l=f6ccf2fad0&id=747662054</p>