Best replacement for Pentax K-1000 for high school class

[andrewg_ny]

I don't think the ZX-M (MZ-M) is still generally available new either, which is unfortunate. It might be possible find many new-in-box examples, but tracking down 10 of them (especially from a single, reputable source) might prove tricky. While it is a really good modern interpretation of the classic manual camera, and a super camera to learn on, it is also likely not nearly as durable as the old K1000's (or many other bodies we might name). I think part of the problem in this case is that firstly the camera users are kids, and secondly that since they don't own the cameras they are somewhat less likely to baby them the way you or I might.

[funkag]

I'm pretty sure the Nikon FM-10 and the Vivitar V3800N / Promaster 2500PK Super are the same Cosina-built camera with different mounts (and share much in common with the Cosina Voigtlander rangefinders). The latter two are the only new K-Mount film camera out there outside of Russia (unless you really dig around and find someone with old new stocks of the K-1000 or ZX-M - maybe you coud contact Pentax and see if anyone might have a few sitting in warehouse somewhere?).

[jpo3136b]

Gina, I would reload with more K-1000s.

 

If you branch out into another brand of camera, try to pick one that can be fitted with Pentax lenses through an adapter

ring; I have not encountered such a thing, as so many of the cameras I've seen have proprietary lens mounts, but it's a

consideration because of the overhead in the glass.

 

Be careful about branching out into other brands; a friend of mine was telling me his wife owns a Canon EOS (what model, I don't know),

but it came up that the lenses for that camera are limited to just a few of the body types.

 

This is a drastic change compared to the "any Pentax lens ever made" trend we see with the all-manual use of Pentax lenses and camera

bodies. An error in choice could cause an unintended increase in overhead. I would recommend a simple inspection and test fitting of the

cameras, to check for compatibility with your existing lenses and resources. Not a big deal, but I'd check rather than purchase sight-

unseen.

 

I just bought a K1000, used, in great condition. Looked pristine; was probably ignored by the previous owner. They may

be out there in the amount that you need. Depends on quantity. For example, if you needed 170 new cameras for 170

students, I would say, go plastic and get some kind of pinhole contraption like a Holga. I suspect though, that what you

will want will be shared cameras, and may only need up to 10 of them? I'd get the K-1000 again.

[joshroot]

<i>"I believe you have fallen into the internet trap of being testy..."</i>

<p>

Justin, like everyone here, I'm only human. I do my best to stay even keeled when posting on photo.net because

it's the best thing for the site. But I'm just as prone to having bad days as anyone. I seriously doubt anyone

here can say that they have a sunny disposition every single day at their job. Photo.net is my job.

<p>

And when you consider the volume of interaction I have with photo.net users via the forums and email, my "bad"

percentage is lower than almost anyone else on the site (aside from Matt Laur probably). It's just more obvious

when I get snippy.

[DWScott]

Gina, go for the Vivitar 3800. Freestyle has them new, with 50mm 1.7 lens, for $150.

 

There are almost no reasonably priced choices left in the 35mm market. The Nikon FM10 (which is basically the same camera with a different mount) is $100 more. So stick with the Vivitar, get the Pentax K-mount, save $100, and budget to replace your plasticky cameras once in a while.

[jgredline]

''Justin Wrote: A great example of film learning is Javier on this forum. He started posting a year or so ago, and really was a complete green horn noob. Today he is as knowledgable as many posters on this forum, but he really IMO started to gain a foothold on photography when he started shooting film. ''

 

I could not agree more.. I took up film to learn the basics of photography and fell in love with it...It taught me that the majority of the problems that I had with my equipment was me. My first film Camera was a K1000, then I bought a second K1000, then an ME SUPER, Then a Spotmatic, Then a Canon AE-1 and finally I picked up a perfect LX...

i still shoot more film than digital. In fact, it was common to go out and fill a 2 gig card on my K10D and keep about 20 images max. Now I shoot about 30-40 and keep most of them. I have not come close to shooting 2 gigs in a long time...

 

I agree that you should take the K1000'S u have and send them to ERIC for a complete going through. He has done all my film bodies (except my canon) and they look spotless new and work great. http://www.pentaxs.com/

I also agree they make a great weapon for self defense.

[rparmar]

As someone who has done some teaching and hopes to do more, I disagree with the comments about needing to shoot

film to get "the basics" and that digital makes things "too easy". What digital does is gets rid of messy

chemicals and long turn-around times between pressing the shutter and getting a usable photographic result. This

makes it easier to teach, since cause and effect are faster to get linked in students' minds. Less book-keeping

is required; there is more immediacy.

 

I am not arguing that digital is better aesthetically, so please do not take me that way. Also I realise digital

cannot do everything film can, and vice versa. There is a place for both. But 99% of photographers are going to

be using digital. Why not teach using the media and techniques your students need?

 

It is quite easy to be sure your students learn the basics. Give them a manual focus K-mount (not KA) lens. And

some strictly controlled assignments. Test them one-on-one in lab time to be sure they can set hyperfocal

distance, control depth of field, freeze action, etc. Seems straight-forward enough to me.

[jpo3136b]

Stick with the film. The chemistry is a good school topic. Since Chemistry involves the study of energy, structure and

balance, as well as the basic building blocks of, oh, everything, you might want to introduce students to that. While they're

roaming around in those topics for a while they could cruise by, say, Optics, Newtonian Physics and three different forms

of Math.

 

Or, they could try digital and debate whether or not "it's chimping" if the monkey noises are included.

[mountainvisions]

You are forgiven Josh, and for what it's worth, I think you are doing a fine job. If we could nominate you for some sort of webmaster award (certainly there is one, I will start checking in earnest) we definitely would!!

 

I also am sure you know I was just joking around with you. But if not, you can come out of your time out in the corner now!!

 

That last post by John cracks me up. I really can't imagine learning with the LCD, once you have a grasp of the basics, then the LCD really can speed up the growing process by allowing instant feedback.

 

Being able to chimp your way to successfully mastering exposure just seems like a bad idea.

[jgredline]

The whole chimping thing is what I am talking about. These days, I only check the histogram, but seldom do I look at the image.. When I first started to shoot film, I thought I would miss the ''chimping'', but in truth, I never have. I am more careful with composition and setting my exposer. The only thing I have not tried with film yet, is shooting sports..

[michael_kuhne]

I have occasionally done a little teaching, that is intorducing an interested young person to SLR photography from time to time. Always with a film body, so far. One thing I do is take a lens, usually a prime, off the camera and use the lens aperture ring to show what an aperture is and let them look at it opening and closing. Then I show how the lever holds it open until the shot is fired, so they get a brighter view through the VF etc. and explain how aperture control is used for certain purposes.

 

The aperture ring is instrumental in allowing them to actually see function, instead of just looking at numbers on an LCD screen. Yes, the instant feedback of digital can definitely have its own teaching advantage. But for getting down to the basic nuts and bolts of how it all works and why, it is hard to beat a good old film SLR camera body using lenses with an aperture ring.

 

And with digital, how would you have the students get a comparable FL of a 28mm f/2.8 prime in a compact, rather inexpensive lens design? Or a 50mm normal??

 

Unfortunately, though the Canon Elan is a very nice model, they abandoned the aperture ring long before.

[dogbert]

I think limiting your class to fully manual cameras is a bit restricitive in terms of the total learning experience. Sure its ok for dealing with basic exposure, but in terms of driving a camera to suit photographic aims, surely there is value in teaching the benefits/drawbacks of using aperture and shutter priority modes as well. And this is coming from someone who learnt on a fully manual camera that lacked even ttl metering and owns a K1000.

 

Something like a canon rebel G, with the EF 50 f1.8 would be both cheap, replaceable and offer something more than a bare bones fully manual rig.

[rparmar]

<p><i>John O'Keefe-Odom wrote: "Stick with the film. The chemistry is a good school topic."</i></p>

 

<p>Unless you're teaching photography, in which case aesthetics, the history of image development technologies

and optics are much better topics. And with digital you can get into hardware and software image processing which

leads into all sorts of engineering and computer science disciplines that are a thousand times more useful than

knowing which bath to put your paper into to get which crystal formations.</p>

 

<p><i>"Or, they could try digital and debate whether or not "it's chimping" if the monkey noises are

included."</i></p>

 

<p>Personally I wouldn't make monkey noises when I teach, but YMMV.</p>

 

<p><i>Michael Kuhne wrote: "The aperture ring is instrumental in allowing them to actually see function, instead

of just looking at numbers on an LCD screen."</i></p>

 

<p>The two are not mutually exclusive. I would teach with a manual lesn, as I've already written. One of the

reasons for this you have aptly described.</p>

 

<p><i>And with digital, how would you have the students get a comparable FL of a 28mm f/2.8 prime in a compact,

rather inexpensive lens design? Or a 50mm normal??</i></p>

 

<p>I would get 28mm primes for ten bucks a piece and use those as normals on a Pentax digital. Much better than

buying a new film cameras that will come with a nasty slow zoom lens.</p>

 

<p>While it's unlikely I'll be teaching photography any time soon, I might very well be teaching music

technology, a field in which exactly these same considerations come into play. You can make any sound you want

with today's synthesis packages and a garden variety computer. So how do you teach without letting the students

have too easy a time of it? The answer is so easy: you structure classes, you set specific assignments, you give

targeted feedback and channel interests towards appropriate resources.</p>

 

<p>I don't think the problem here is that digital makes photography too easy. I think the problem is that it

makes the teaching too hard, especially for those unwilling to move with the times.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

"I don't think the problem here is that digital makes photography too easy. I think the problem is that it makes the teaching too hard, especially for those unwilling to move with the times."

 

Really shoveling the BS here! Should we abandon painting, too, for the latest and greatest technology? The OP stated that she was looking for film cameras. Are you too thick to understand that? Must you get up on your soap box!

[rparmar]

Robert: No I am not too thick, maybe in fact not thick enough to understand your insulting tone. I am well aware of the OPs request and am not responding to her but some of the other respondents. That's how a forum discussion works. And how can this be a "soap box" when I have never written on the topic before?

 

Did I ever say we should "abandon" painting or even film? But should we still be teaching stone carving because it worked pretty well for all those Romans? Yes, I know stone carving still has its place. But me, I believe students get more out of a subject when it is relevant to them.

 

By the way, to be consistent you should give up that newfangled communication tool we call the Internet and go back to pen and paper. I await your reply in the mail.

[pbarnes]

Roert, I do not think that response was called for. If you enjoy putting people down, please do on another forum somewhere else.

[pbarnes]

Woops, I meant to type Robert (Budding) not Roert.

[pbarnes]

I have a 17 year old daughter. She is interested in photography in so far as it will enable her to put the

images of her friends she took at the party last night on Facebook this morning. As someone who learnt

film photography way back in the day, and last year taught the daughter to drive, these are the questions I

would expect if I suggested she learn the intricacies of film:

 

"Why can't I see the photos straight away?"

 

 

"What is the point of turning light into a piece of like plastic stuff that then needs to be scanned into the

computer before I can put it on the internet? Why can't I download it straight from the camera?"

 

 

"Just who uses film to take photographs anymore, apart from those landscape photographers you wank on

about? I don't want to take photos of hills."

 

 

Perhaps this is just a long winded way of saying I agree with Robin, and take issue with Justin. Yes there

are principles of photography that apply to both film and digital. But is it really easier, or better in some

other way, to use film cameras to teach, for example, the relationships between aperture, focal length and

shutter speed? I would have thought, with the instant feedback of digital, and the zero cost of

experimentation, that the opposite would be true.

[personalphotos]

Interesting discussion and everyone has made good points. If they need a camera like the K1000, then just get

more used ones and send them to Eric for an overhaul. They would be good for another 10+ years and come back like

new and within the budget.

 

But cost? Digital is much cheaper and schools are always tight on budgets. The images don't have to be developed

or printed unless a certain image is important or needed. Any Pentax DSLR could be set to manual and like someone

said, use K not KA lenses for learning the basics. The cameras will cost more to start but cost much less in a

few short months.

[rparmar]

I have learned so much from my own photography teachers here on photo.net and Pentax forums. Just thought I'd

take a moment to thank you all.

[jgredline]

''Robin Parmar , Nov 07, 2008; 10:32 a.m.

 

I have learned so much from my own photography teachers here on photo.net and Pentax forums. Just thought I'd take a moment to thank you all.''

 

Same here!!!!!

[ed_yuen]

Hi Gina:

 

As stated by previous posters, there would appear to be no one who manufactures film cameras at this time (yes, I'm still a film user) and it would appear that your options for 'new' equipment is limited to whatever used stuff that still might be available. However, you could try contacting some of the companies and larger internet retailers to see if they might still have 'Old Stock' available. Or convince the people at the top of the situation and have them allow you to purchase 'used' equipment.

 

I think it's great that you are teaching film photography, I'm not going to get into that 'discussion' about which is better; it's a matter of personal taste. I currently am loaning an old Pentax SuperProgram, TTL flash & lens to a cousin of mine who is going to be learning film in class. I think it's great that they still teach it, if only to be able to demonstrate how all that 'old' technology translates into the new digital age. How else will they undertand what an 'f stop' or aperture works, or how a light meter is used, or even what film speed really means?

 

Yes, digital is easy and quick, very suited to today's 'instant' gratification society (I want it, YESTERDAY!), film can slow things down a bit, to help teach composition, posing and depth of field. I've looked at a lot of pictures posted here and I've seen a lot of excellent work, but how many duds were made before that one ideal one was posted? Today, we have 'Photoshop' (and other software) to tweak images, Maybe a little time in a darkroom can help someone appreciate how much more difficult it was, using your own mind, a light-tight box, lens and filters to create a lasting image.

 

I do wish you luck on this venture, and I hope you success in the program. Maybe keep us in the loop and let us know how it all turns out, regardless. I for one am on the sideline cheering you on!

 

Ed

[gina_gieser]

I thought I'd give everyone an update! I made my case with my district head, and they will be letting me purchase used k-1000s and fixing up my beat-up ones. I'm very excited! I no longer have to worry!

 

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I brought up this post as part of my argument.

[pbarnes]

Well done Gina! Thanks for letting us know. While I was one of the above arguing for a shift to digital, there's part of me that feels good about film photography still being taught.

[personalphotos]

Gina, good news. I hope you check the thread again. You should have this link http://pentaxs.com/index.html for the best Pentax service on Pentax film cameras. You could refurbish some of if not all of the existing stock and if you decide to pick up gear in the used market (Ebay and KEH would be good starting places), you can get them serviced back to like new condition. The bonus with Ebay is many sell very cheap and you'll get lots of extras like lenses, cable releases and filters for the same price as a used body alone.

 

Her's an example of a nice kit. http://cgi.ebay.com/pentax-k-1000-35mm-camera-with-lots-of-extras_W0QQitemZ220308207730QQihZ012QQcategoryZ15241QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

and a quick search of Ebay showed 158 cameras listed.http://photography.search.ebay.com/pentax-k1000_Film-Cameras_W0QQcatrefZC12QQdfspZ32QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsacatZ15230QQsbrsrtZd

 

KEH has a ton of them and they always seem to provide excellent quality used gear. A place you can trust. There many bodies there and many with a lens. See: http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductList.aspx?Mode=searchproducts&item=0&ActivateTOC2=false&ID=&BC=&BCC=&CC=&CCC=&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=&KW=k1000%20pentax