Leica M2 winding lever difficult to wind

[denis_pleic]

There's a problem with my recently acquired M2.

 

When I put film in, the winding lever is difficult to wind. I've had another M2 for couple of years, so I know

very well how the camera should function - my older M2 works flawlessly, and works as it should (although the

film advance isn't as "buttery smooth" as on my M3....)

 

When there's no film in the camera, the winding lever turns (and sounds) just fine. However, when I put film in

it and close the back door, I feel resistance when winding on to the next shot. It becames gradually more

difficult and "jerky", as if there's some gear misalignment or something....

 

The first roll was so difficult that I tore a couple of sprocket holes on the 35th frame, when I stopped shooting

and rewound the film back (again with lots of resistance).

 

The problem goes away when the back door is removed - i.e. film loaded properly, bottom plate attached, but with

the back door removed from camera. Obviously, I can't use the camera without the back door attached, so it's not

a possible solution ;)

 

At first I thought it could be a problem with the back door, but it looks the same as the door on my other M2.

I've even tried switching the doors on those two M2's (the first thing I tried - I thought it could be the

problem with the door...). No luck.

 

I've even tried swapping take-up spools - again, no luck. Same thing.

 

I've opened up the camera (removed the top plate), and cleaned the range/viewfinder windows on the top plate

which were a little hazy, but that's all.

 

I don't think I dare go any deeper, unless it's something relatively simple, which can be done once the top plate

is removed.

 

Authorized Leica service or at least a reliable repair person is nowhere to be found this side of border, and

sending the camera abroad for repair would cost twice as much as I paid for the camera :(

 

So, I'm thinking about trying to see what's wrong myself. I think it could be either the winding gear (below the

winding lever) or the take-up side shaft.

 

Like I said, I've taken off and replaced the top plate, so I'm not new to messing up with cameras and small

screws. I know that the usual warnings apply when trying to do DIY repairs on Leicas - I'm not overconfident in

my repair skills :) - that's why I'm asking here first.

 

However, since the camera was not expensive, and sending it abroad for repair would buy me almost another

(working) M2

body, I think I don't have other choice. I also have the M2 service manual (US Army, I beleive, the one

downloadable from the Net), but still....

 

Any ideas?

[Rob F.]

Have you tried switching the back doors between M2 bodies, to see if the problem will follow one of the doors? It appears to be an important clue staring you in the face, so I wouldn't ignore it, even if another solution seems more convenient or likely.

 

The first thing that occurred to me was that there is some drag in the rewind knob mechanism. That would explain the torn sprocket holes. But drag induced by the back door/pressure plate would equally well explain this. I wonder if there is something jammed behind the pressure plate, causing it to clamp down too hard on the film. This would also explain the excessive drag during rewinding.

 

I would swap out the back doors between the two bodiesand see what happens.

[harry_zet]

if you are in poland you could send your m2 to fototechnik reinhardt in germany. he is cheap and a top-notch leica-

repairperson. re replaced the complete film-winding mechanism on my leicaflex, cleaned the screen and adjusted the meter to

1,5 volts - all for 200 euro including shipping. highly recommended, and fast turnaround

[denis_pleic]

Rob,

 

Perhaps I did not explain it too well in my initial post - swapping the back doors between the two cameras was my

first thought, too - but it did not do any good...

 

Harry, I'm in Croatia. Shipping ANYWHERE outside of Croatia is a big pain in the beind, besides costing an arm

and a leg. Just shipping the darned camera out of the country will probably cost something like EUR 50, plus a

mountain of papers. Besides, they will probably make me pay the Customs and other dues once the camera returns

from Germany, just to be on the safe side :(

 

Too much of a hassle. But the camera might be worth it - the shutter speeds are excellent (except for 1/1000,

which is expected...).

 

Denis

[john_shriver]

There needs to be a slip somewhere in the takeup spool, since as the film builds up, it needs to turn less with each film advance. I don't know if the spool slips against the shaft on the M2, or if the slip is somewhere else.

 

Try loading film in through the back such that it doesn't engage the sprockets, but does go to the spool. Wind several frames. Now, try pulling the film out. It should not be difficult. Do the same on your good M2 to see where the problem is.

 

There are free online copies of the US Army's repair manual for the M2: http://leicaclub.net/files/leica_m2_service.pdf

[vick_ko]

Yes, there are 2 clues.

 

1. as one person has said, there has to be a small amount of slippage in the spool takeup, to accommodate for the expanding diameter of the film roll. Check that the spool can slip and slip smoothly.

 

2. since you are only experiencing the problem when film is loaded and the back door in place, check the entire film path and ensure that it is not grabbing the film. Also with the door off, check whether the sprocket holes are in fact skipping. They cannot skip with the door attached.

 

3. I would also guess that one or more of the gears that advance the film is badly worn and need replacing. This will only show up if the gears are in tension - that is, with film in place. One way to check for this is to not have film in the camera, remove the back door, and use your finger against the sprocket roller to cause a resistance. Then wind the camera, to see if the roughness is there.

 

You can buy gears, if you identify which ones you need. DAG can sell you them, if you identify them. www.dagcamera.com

 

Good luck

 

Vick

[denis_pleic]

<b>OK - progress update and detailed diagnosis</b>

<p>

<p>Swapping of the doors (from my other, good M2), DID help somewhat this time.

<p>BUT - what happens is that the camera "winds" past frame #36 :)

<p>Discovering that, I follwed what happens carefully. Loaded the camera with film (36 exposures) and closed the door, just like I was about to shoot normally.

<p>Winding is more or less OK until about frame #30 - meaning the winding lever works OK, film is winding, since I'm seeing the rewind knob shaft with two dots turning, as it should be.

<p><b>BUT</b>, when it reaches somewhere around frame #30, the winding shaft starts to slip!

<p>What happens is it starts to wind, meets some resistance, and then slips (the film is not wound an entire frame, but something like 3/4 of the way, and then I feel gears slipping with some resistance).

<p>After that, the winding side just slips and slips - the film is not wound at all, and it can go on forever.

<p>It does work OK up until about 28-30 frames....

<p>

<p>So, the problem is DEFINITELY in the advance gears... It's either misalignment, or as Vick said, totally worn gears :(

[andrew_clark1]

Time for a CLA. If you keep winding it, you are bound to jam the shutter/advance.

[vick_ko]

There are 3 major gears that drive the film advance. The big one under the advance lever. Then a small one that "reverses the direction of the gears", then the third one that is attached to the sprocket drive shaft.

 

I've seen Leica's where that 2nd gear is loose. Try tightening the screw that holds it. As well, the gear bushing for that 2nd gear could be loose too. To tighten it, you have to take the gear right off.

 

Sounds like you need to take the top off again, and see what happens to the gears when you wind up a roll of film.

 

Vick

[Rob F.]

Denis, why not just shoot 24 exposure rolls until you can have it fixed? Isn't Efke in Croatia? Maybe you can pick up some 24 exposure rolls. (I'm not sure if they make them--haven't tried Efke yet.) And since you have another M2, maybe this one could be the spare for a while?

[denis_pleic]

Seeing that I'm not too confident that I could mess with gears without fear of ruining anything, I'll try to find

a repair person, after all. The camera is too nice otherwise (crytal clear VF/RF, correct shutter speeds) to

reduce to a bag of spare parts :)

 

In the meantime, I've learned that there's a guy in Croatia who was an authorized Hasselblad repairman, so I'll

try my luck with him...

[Gus Lazzari]

Hello folks, if not a minor impact to the rewind knob area which has compromised the smoothness, then the VERY common rewind fork, shaft or knob mechanism has congealed lubricant. Solvent wash then re-lub to achieve smoothness.

 

Vick's gear theory in light of Denis' explanation is absurd...

[denis_pleic]

A short update:

 

Yesterday I took the "problematic" M2 to the repair guy I found (the one who used to service Hasselblads).

 

He has a small repair shop, full of various tools and machinery. He says he can also manufacture replacement gears and parts.

However, I don't think he's into Leicas :)

I had to show him a few things... Luckily, I also brought him a CD with all the material on M2 that I could find, including Tristan's Youtube video (top cover removal), basic repair manual and the US Army service manual in PDF.

 

He thought the problem rather strange, and said he'd try to find out what's wrong....

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed - I guess I'll know in a week or so. Will let you know how it turns out.

 

Denis

[denis_pleic]

Just spoke on the phone with the repair person - my M2 is serviced/repaired.

 

He said it was something about "friction mechanism" on the winding side (?) being out of order.

In short, he says it now winds all 36 shots without problem (or resistance....).

 

Repair cost: $55

 

Not bad. I hope this solves the problem completely. The camera is too nice to sit on the shelf :)