Is the K20D Sharper than the Canon 5D?

[miserere_mei]

Just thought I'd stir things up a bit. If nobody else finds this interesting, I'm sure Lindy will :-)

 

http://www.hitokiri.com/blog/archives/2008/10/a_few_quick_dir.php

 

Be sure to check out the shots at the long end at f/8.

 

Enjoy!

[jgredline]

Pretty cool read, but is not the sharpness of the lens and not the body?

[natacha_audette]

Good read, it kinda helps me out with understanding the technical side of photography. Oh and Sean is going to sell his

K100D to me....:)

[miserere_mei]

Well done Natacha! Although I thought you would manage to convince him to just give it to you. Did you not bat your eyelashes enough? ;-)

[orly_andico]

The K20D has a smaller pixel pitch than the Canon 5D, as it has more pixels on a sensor which is only 1/2 the area (APS-C versus full-frame). So given a lens which exceeds the sensor resolution, then yes, the K20D would outresolve the Canon 5D. Most primes can outresolve 12MP class sensors, apparently so can the 16-50/2.8 vs the 24-70/2.8L (or maybe the 16-50/2.8 is just a better lens than the 24-70/2.8L -- one never knows).

 

It's hard to make a comparison with two bodies AND two lenses. Put say a Pentax SMC Takumar on both cameras, stop down to f/5.6, and THEN you'd have a valid comparison of JUST the bodies.

[orly_andico]

Although I'd also like to point out.. resolution isn't everything. Having big pixels means low noise at high ISO... this is where the D3 and D700 excel. Full frame with only 12MP! and with a sensor that's a generation (or two..) newer than the Canon 5D! so the K20D would outresolve the 5D in good light. :-)

[personalphotos]

I'm waiting... Lindy? You there? Mis laid the bait... I think this again solidifies the Pentax K10/20's as excellent cameras. Now just add the stuff the sports guys want in next years body and the package will be complete.

[14mm 2.8l]

Wouldn't a better title be Battle of the 2 Lenses with Well Known Poor Quality Control?

 

I don't think I ever said K10D and K20D are bad cameras? My complaints have been the delays I lived with the past

few years , outsourcing production to VietNam , inflated issue price of new product , the termination on my local

pentax reps , the higher cost of pro quality used Pentax FA glass over brand new L Series Eos , No Full Frame , no

autofocus teleconverters , no autofocus fuction extention tubes , roadmapping lenses that take 2 years or longer

to reach the market , 645D yes, 645D no, 645D maybe... , ...

 

I think most everyone makes excellent dslrs. So then you need to compare cost and availability of lenses and

assessories. I'm extremely happy with 5D and L Glass so far and inspite of being told how heavy it is compared to

pentax my wife has no problems using 5D and proglass too. For me and my aging eyes I have hit & miss manual

focus problems with smaller aps-c format that magically disappear with full frame dslr.

 

I've been following several K20D offers right now and might buy one before K20D drops off the system. Anyone notice

the brand new K20D hammered $698 yesterday? At these price levels I'm interested in getting a K20D. At $550 to

$600

brand new in the box I've pretty much run out of reasons not to get a K20D other than the fact I completed my Eos

full frame system and had planned to "move on" by cashing out all my pentax goodies. Nothings sold yet, so for the

first time in about 5 months I'm following pentax aftermarket sales again.

Is $550 really possible? K10D made it to $509 delivered before it fell off the system and since K20D is more like a

K10D than not I'd say yes, $550 sounds just right.

[duane_mills]

Excellent read Mis. Thanks for posting.

 

Oh look, Lindy tries to muddy the water again! Now there's a surprise! The bottom line Lindy - Pentax rocks for

value and image quality. Why don't you sell your formidable assortment of Pentax glass on ebay and become a

completely devoted worshiper at the Canon temple and, stop being a seasonal / holiday church goer at the Pentax

chapel. I suspect you'd be much happier. Heck, I might even pick up a great deal on some excellent used Pentax

lenses if you do!

 

Thanks again Mis. Love the article.

[14mm 2.8l]

I was mentioned twice or "baited" by name in this thread Duanne.

 

Then you pop me for responding dude.

 

Is this one of those examples of "how friendly pentaxians are" Duanne?

 

I do the same thing here when people bring up eos and how is sucks versus the amazing pentax system. My favorite

is how fast and accurate pentax af is over canon or how none of the eos lenses are weathersealed and how only two

or three lenses have IS or how much heavier 5D is over K20D. One only needs to use a consumer grade 5D to see

how fast and accurate the eos af is and for me it tops pentax, Its true K20D is two whole ounces lighter than 5D. But

dude my little wife has no problems enjoying eos experience. I own both brands so I'd like to think my opinions

are valid? No? Should I list (for you again) all the pentax made equiptment I still own Duanne and ask once more if I

am

allowed my point of view, especially when I am mentioned by name in an Eos titled thread on Pentax forum Duanne?

 

I''m still intrigued with K20D at its deflated price. Still, it really makes no sense to buy it as I'd assume its smaller

viewfinder would be a handicap for me even if it hits $550-$600. How about you Duanne, will you buy a K20D for

under $700 or wait for next years better model?

 

Lindy

[mountainvisions]

"Full Frame , no autofocus teleconverters , no autofocus fuction extention tubes , roadmapping lenses that take 2 years or longer to reach the market , 645D yes, 645D no, 645D maybe... , ."

 

1) 645D is never coming to market...6,000 medium format cameras are sold a year. That means for Pentax to make them profifable they'd have to sell 50% of those or more. So yeah, they can cut the 35mm division, make the 645D and then you will get your wish, no more Pentax. But hey, there will be a 645D that very few people on this board will own or want!! Yay!!!

 

My guess is Pentax had intentions to compete the 645D with the EOS 1Ds but apparently cost couldn't be cut enough to make it a sub $8000 camera.

 

2) I thought Canon QC was top notch? I thought everything Canon made was top notch? So how can the tested lens suffer from poor QC? If anything Canon had the advantage!!!

 

3) We've gone around in circles on this but the roadmap is a foolish idea, it only causes problems. Nikon and Canon have roadmaps, they just don't publish them. You have no idea when they are releasing stuff. At this point I'd have to say that is smart. Personally the roadmap is meaningless to me other than an idea of what MIGHT come to market. Roadmaps (real ones, for cars) change all the time, roadmaps for lenses can do the same thing. Thus far Pentax has released everything as it promised

 

4) While your 5D viewfinder is purported to be 10X better than the K10D/K20D it's the one FF viewfinder I've looked through and I have not been blown away. Is it better? marginally. But then any minor focus errors on APS-C are often covered up by the larger apparent DOF. So IMO they offset each other except at extreme close focusing where DOF is extremely narrow anyway.

 

5) The "pro glass" canon makes is no better than the "pro glass" Pentax makes. If anything Pentax glass is often better. You've gotten caught up in marketing, which is a shame!!

 

6) The price deflation thing is a "scratch my head and say huh?" thing. All I have to do is parrallel these cameras to a computer and it all makes sense. The other brands artificially inflate their prices till a new model comes out. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE CAMERA IS ANY BETTER.

 

A great example would be a buying a house on Long Island, NY. The prices are so inflated that a $500,000 house sounds impressive to a guy living in Springdale, Arkansas but when he visits his friend at the $500,000 Long Island house he wonders where the 500K is. I look at my purchases on my meager salary as what is best value for the money. The house in Springdale is nicer, bigger, has more property and only cost $150,000, compared to the house on LI.

 

Pentax is the house in Springdale, and Canon/Nikon are the house on Long Island. I don't give a crap about MSRP, I only care about what is best for my (semi) hard earned dollar.

 

7) Waiting for next years better model is the same as waiting 3 months for the next PC in the 1990s. The question is "Do I need a new camera now" and "Does my old camera do everything I need it to do NOW."

 

So as I've noted, both on here and in my review, the K20D is a great camera, more camera than the K10D but is it worth upgrading to K10D owners without a huge budget? Nope not at all. So But then was the 10D worth upgrading to over the 20D? Nope not at all. Basically, every other camera is worth upgrading to IMO.

 

Olympus screwed that mantra up a bit by actually putting 3 years of thought behind the E1 and E3 making the E3 a buy now camera, but then I get the impression they knew that because it's called an E3 and not an E2.

 

8) Finally, Lindy always talks about how Pentax didn't offer him the lenses he needed. YET, I see many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many people put up many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many good and even great images on this board every week and month, and often on a daily basis, taken with kit lenses, Limiteds, and Sigma/Tokina/Tamron branded glass. Not to mention the DA/FA* glass. The point being, if the lens selection available to Pentax users were so bad that Lindy couldn't creat great images then how are the rest of Pentaxian's doing it.

 

My advice is work more on photography, and worry less about gear. Use your camera every day rather than spend time checking prices of gear you never intend to buy!!! Thats my 2 cents

[14mm 2.8l]

Thats true there are many pics on this board, which is actually against photo.net policy. You can't do this on nikon

and canon eos boards.

 

At photonet we are actually only supposed to be posting questions on equiptment boards but personally I like the

abundance of pics on

this pentax forum. Will it last? I hope so, but it does violate p-net policies, unless I missed the rule change?

 

Justin in 8 less months at photonet you've posted twice as much as me, so you're averaging One post per day last 5

years. Now thats "Many".

 

Anyways as pentax is so stellar spectacular, why is it photographers have to add another brand to their pentax bag,

or more specifically hows your professional capture via nikon been lately? Did you buy your second nikon dslr yet?

D300. I forget, why is it you had to add Nikon equiptment to your pentax system? I know why I added canon full

frame dslrs and canon made pro lenses still not available new from pentax this decade and the addition of eos has

improved my imaging due to full

frame's superior viewfinder

and eos' better autofocus capture. It still makes my wife laugh when I am humourously amazed she can handle well

balanced but "heavier" eos equiptment.

 

You're right though, its pointless to add a K20D for less than $700 to my bag since I need only one dslr brand since I

am quite happy with 5D full frame and fast full frame lenses, teleconverters and extension tubes (that I own). Your

reminding me I don't need two brands but instead I wanted to keep two brands will save me a few bucks. Thanks

 

I said it before, I'll say it again:

 

Do You Want Me to respond to threads where people mention my Name?

 

I'm guess'n YES

 

Lindy

[jgredline]

is there really a policy that prohibits picture posting in the pentax forum?

[miserere_mei]

"is there really a policy that prohibits picture posting in the pentax forum?"

 

I'm scratching my head at that one too...

[miserere_mei]

Lindy, I wasn't trying to "bait" you, it's just that you're the only guy I know (even if I don't actually *know* you) with a 5D, so I thought I'd pull your leg a little. I pull just about everyone's leg around here, so don't think I singled you out :-)

 

I agree that everyone makes good cameras, and everyone makes good and bad lenses, the only difference is in the price tag.

 

Justin, regarding price deflation, the way I've understood it is it follows a supply vs demand strategy. When a new product comes out there will be great expectation and many people wanting it, usually there are more people than units available. What Pentax does is introduce the product at hight prices because they know many people won't buy them so they are able to meet the demand created by the big-spenders. When these sales die down and available units are growing, they drop the price to attract the next group of buyers, those who have smaller pockets. This process continues until it's time to introduce an upgrade.

 

What this system does is ensure that the factories are always producing at optimal speed and that warehouses are as empty as possible, The goal is to have a buyer for each product coming off the assembly line and to have a product for each buyer coming into the store, so that demand never exceed supply.

 

The approach Canikon follows is slightly different: When a new product appears they start cranking them out as fast as they can, which is never fast enough the meet the high demand, but they don't care because Canikon users seem happy to pay extra. Remember when Nikon introduced the 18-200mm? Some people waited for 6 months to get theirs, and in fact when stores could get a batch of them they would sell them for more than the release price.

 

Personally, I like Pentax's approach more. When they release a product, I know I can purchase it within 2 weeks. If I want it immediately after release, then I know I'll have to pay a premium. If I don't *need* it straight away, then I can wait a few months and save 10-20% on it. I think we all get the gear we want when we want it, for the price we want it. I'm sure there are many out there who thought "I want a K20D, but I can't (or won't) pay more than $950"; those people just had to wait 6 months or so to be able to buy their K20D.

 

Imagine a Nikon shooter who wants a D300. It was released at $1,700 in November 2007 or so and they thought "I can't afford to buy one until it costs $1,300". Well, they're SOL, cos 1 year later it still costs $1,550, and even used ones on eBay can cost more $1,300.

 

I'm with Pentax on this, and I hope they continue to use the same marketing strategy, where everyone can (eventually) afford to buy their best camera if they want.

[14mm 2.8l]

The bait thing was a quote from Peter, the second "Lindy" in this thread.

 

Then Duane popped me for talking on the forum, where clearly I was mentioned. So I'll reply, right?

 

Indeed, ever wonder why nikon and canon forums don't have a half a dozen pic filled threads from groups or

individuals per week? Try it. You'll see.

 

I like the pic threads and it is a photography forum, but thats the rules & had it quoted to me. So see, pentax is

cooler than other brands huh? But I'm not complaining , its P-nets Sandbox and they supply the sand so they make

the rules.

It seemed a good time to bring it up in resonse to Justins "MANY" .................pics reply to me. AND On other

forums

here you can't do Justin's favorite !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or !!!!!!!!!!!!! or !!!

 

Just

 

!

 

is allowed. Nor can you hotlink your image website in you signature.

 

This pentax forum experience the past 3 years has made me thick skinned as I usually take Jabs from Justin about

every time I post here and occasionally Duane chimes in. Fair enough, thats the way the internet is.

 

 

But seriously if my name gets posted and then I get chest tagged for replying? Are you kidding me? And really over

time makes me question the often professed "pentaxians are the friendiest people" I read so often on this pentax

forum

and other pentax forums. I own multiple brands of glass and two brands of equiptment and pentax forums are the

only place I take heat for expressing opposing viewpoints.

 

Anyways the $698 yesterday price K20D are over as all 4 offers today topped it. One just $702 but the rest were

much higher, but all less than $800. Now people are bidding more for

K20D I guess due to the fact they know the good guy price exists or its just coincidence.

 

Yesterdays $698 New in Box K20D link:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120315130938

[personalphotos]

Geez Lindy, I was just having a little fun with you. I figured you'd have something to say and didn't think it would develop into 4 pages. Oh well. I need a sarcasm smiley. :)

 

They are all great systems and offer a huge leap from what we could get only a few short years ago. I will agree with you though, some of the delays bringing some items to market has been tough on many of us. The long awaited 60-250 for one.

[michael_kuhne]

Hey, Lindy, you are right! But not really in terms of being "baited". If "baited", your name would not have been overtly brought up.

 

Mis came across this interesting test, wanted to share it and present his assessment, hoping to stimulate some lively discussion. And since you are such an avid Canon advocate.... it was to be expected you'd be heard from.

 

You do know your Canon stuff quite well. Some of your frustrations with Pentax' way of doing things is shared by others. I have a few as well. But I am forgiving because they often wind up with extraordinary products, well-designed and unique. Justin brings up a good point about Canon and Nikon not revealing their roadmap.

 

I think Pentax does that because they know they are behind in some areas and want to hang on to customers and others with potential interest. They are saying- "hang on, I'm a-comin'" In their case, slow is often better and worth the wait.

 

Lindy, I am with you to some degree as to the issue of Full Frame. It seems that with FF, better over all IQ can be achieved even with less mp. That being said, there are advantages to both formats. You can experience some of this just by using 35mm SLR cameras as well as DSLR models. One can offer what the other cannot in terms of format. I know most others here have taken the position that offering digital FF is nonsense, but I do not agree. It may not be a necessary thing, except that all other brands are doing so, but there are indeed inherent advantages to be had.

 

Besides the lower noise at high ISO, and the VF, there are other matters. Just go back to using you film models, and you'll see. FF offers advantagess in the wide angle area. I have a nice Sigma 24mm f/1.8, which translates to a still very useful 36mm on a DSLR, but then no longer at 24mm wide view. Can you get an equivelent 16mm f/1.8 for aps, and with very low distortion? Not at all. And what size and cost would such a lens be? As for Pentax Limiteds, if we get a 15mm, how fast will it be and how compact, and how expensive? I got my Sigma for about $300. My 43mm Limited, while useful and versatile as a short tele on a DSLR, is very versatile as a semi-wide on FF. Could we expect to see an equivelent 28mm f/1.9 compact "pancake" lens for aps use? No way. Trouble is, unlike film, we are also unlikely to soon see a nice, compact digital FF body.

 

Lindy, if you should obtain a Pentax 43mm Limited and use it on your ZX-L, I think you'd enjoy it very much. I use that combo quite often.

[duane_mills]

Lindy, I simply dislike brand superiority attitudes by those who like to put down anything that isn't their personal preference, especially when they write multiple short stories to justify their position which often is at odds with the group being addressed. Also, I'd love to buy a few of those lenses you have on ebay since it seems that you are dissatisfied with Pentax. If Pentax is so horrible why do you hang on to the old lenses?

 

Will I buy a K20D soon? The answer is no. I've just ordered a K200D to compliment my existing K100D Super.

[michael_kuhne]

Duane, I have the same pair and am very happy about it. Now I really like them BOTH for the advantages each offers. The K200D is a knockout for a compact model. Really built, and very nice features. The Super is still very much appreciated, I find, for its lightweight packing and fine high ISO performance for low light and action shooting. I'll be interested in hearing of your experience as well after having this pair for a while.

[johnmarsden]

The problem is

 

Pentax is good and relatively cheap.

 

Canon is, on the whole better and relatively more expensive.

 

Nikon though is okay and expensive....

 

3 makes covering the 3 options.

 

I have to declare I do not own any Nikon gear – except a pair of binoculars – and they are average and were

expensive.

 

Lindy is just a big silly teddy bear and Justin a naughty little boy with a short attention span and too much

knowledge about Pentax gear. And the rest of you stop standing around watching the fighting in the playground or

you won't be allowed out on your own.

 

Nuff said – off to bed all of you.

 

John /-}

[personalphotos]

Ah John, Justin's "short attention span" also includes owning a Nikon DSLR with some long glass. So he has a broader knowledge than you might assume.

 

I've now let the sandbox...

[ken_yee]

geez...I thought I'd read a thoughtful comparison of what these two systems can do and I read a weird flamefest :-P

 

I think it depends mostly on the glass and mpix currently (assuming we're not talking about low-light performance where FF soundly trounces APS-C).

FWIW, a friend who does paid wedding photography joined digital recently w/ a D700 and Nikon's 24-70 lens. If you want to see amazing sharp, pixel peep the resulting photos. You can see hair follicles and the white hair you can't see normally. And this on a 12mpix FF sensor because it has a zoom lens on it that has the sharpness of my Kiron macro lens. Nikon is seriously kicking Canon's rear lately...their latest lenses have some sort of magic pixie dust and that includes the 14-24 from samples I've seen. To put this in a Pentax user's perspective though...this friend paid more for his body/single zoom/flash setup than I paid for my K10D and 3 used Nikon flashes and 5 lenses (3 zooms and 2 primes), but pixel peeping his photos was still amazing :-)

[abe_hollander]

[i can't believe I'm going to comment in this thread... so over my head.]

 

But.

 

As I still try to learn one thing new every month on my K10D, I had an eye-rolling moment Saturday, as Dad showed me his K20D viewfinder, pressed the Fn button, and showed me that his dynamic range was set to 200%.

 

Now COME ON! I already have enough to learn! Just starting playing with exposure lock! My skills are getting better, but at this rate, I'll be waiting for the K50D to drop below $1000, and have to learn too much stuff to be good at it.

 

I'll take Justin's advice and just work on photography...

[abe_hollander]

Hey, I just got my very first film canister!!! WOO-HOO!