james_kellar2 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I just got hired to shoot a wedding in a few weeks from a friend of the family for the couples wedding gift. I don't know if the couple already has a photographer and have been td not to disclose the client until delivery of the pictures. I really don't like this setup but they paid if full up front for my services. How would you approach this matter at the wedding if confronted. I shoot portrait journalism style so if there is another photographer there I will be out of their way. I have beeenhooting weddings for the past 10 years and never had this happen without the couple knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I would not have taken the job without knowing whether the couple already has a professional photographer, or any photographer, actually. It is possible, but unlikely, that a full and excellent coverage (whether reportage or not) of a wedding can be achieved without the couple knowing who, exactly, is the appointed pro or main photographer. At the very least, they are going to wonder who you are and why you are constantly hanging around and taking so many pictures, even if you are out of the way of another hired pro. I would also be darned sure that the client (person who hired you) didn't have high expectations for the usual type of full coverage. I guess you can make up a story, like you are a guest of one of their guests, and you're an avid photo nut just out to use your new gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_kellar2 Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 I will tell them that I was hired for their wedding gift if questioned but I cannot disclose who hired me until I deliver the picture package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Nope.....at this point when you show up you're actually just an uninvited guest. No matter who is paying for the coverage the client should still be the B/G. It's "their" day. If you do show up and there is another primary photographer then your presence can actually put the B/G's contract with their photographer in jeopardy. Unethical and not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 > How would you approach this matter at the wedding if confronted. < I have had a similar issue, twice: once from the Best Man, the other was the Grandmother. On both occasions I made a counter offer of holding the date, (with non refundable payment) and issuing a Certificate for the Purchaser to Give to the B&G, as a gift PRIOR to the Wedding Date, on the understanding that, this be at least 6 weeks out. Firstly: It is quite acceptable to give Wedding Gifts 6 Weeks prior. Secondly: It is not my place to deliver it. Irrespective of this being (IMO) simply silly, for the B&G NOT to know about the gift prior, if that is what is going to happen . . . and any Professional Ethical and Legal implications . . . if there is another Photographer . . . In my cases, I just kept it simple and explained that meeting the B&G, building rapport and tailoring the coverage etc, is part of my professional protocol and part of the service they are buying as a gift. The Best Man went ahead: Grandma did not agree. I cannot offer any advice other than the above, which might be able to be applied, now. If not, and there are two hired Photographers, I suspect both of you will need to show grace and understanding, or if one chooses not to: then you will need to have Plan B and the other will need to think quickly on his feet. My plan B, frankly, is not to be put the situation, in the first place. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithdunlop Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 While it is probably a well-intended and thoughtful gift to the bride and groom, it sounds a little odd. You say that the couple is to be unaware of you shooting the wedding until you deliver pictures. Are you invisible? You're not a guest taking occasional shots with a pocket P&S. You're a hired professional photographer. Somebody at some point during the day is going to ask who you are and what you're doing. The other issue is that your client appears to be a "friend" of the family. Does the family know about you as a hired photographer? If both the couple and the family are unaware that you have been hired as a professional photographer, that is a recipe for issues/questions about what you are doing. I can't speak for other photographers, but my contract states that I am the sole hired photographer. If your couple already has a hired photographer with similar contractual stipulations, you would not be welcome as the "second" and secretly hired pro. You say that you are unaware if there is already a hired pro in place, and I think that is a problem. If none of these things are issues, then great. But my advice to you would be to find out if there is already a hired photographer and make sure that you will not be causing problems for the couple, no matter how well-intended this gift may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen_wright Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 The pro I work with has a clause in their contract that states they should be the only pro photgrapher to shoot the wedding. So you being there may cause the couple to be in breach of their contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayt Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Big time trouble if there is another photographer hired. Aside from the possible contractual issues, how are you going to pose people without interfering? How will you control the situation to get the pictures you need? If you are the only photographer hired the couple needs to know. If I was getting married, did not expect a photographer, and suddenly had some clod trying to arrange people and photograph, and did not know the individual, I would have them removed by the police. Unless "your client" expressly agrees to inform the couple, and there is no other hired photographer, you need to return the money and decline the job. If you don't you are setting yourself up as very unprofessional and possible legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo_dinning Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 One of the wonderful things about shooting weddings for a living is that you have been invited by the B&G to take a special role in their big day. Like others here I doubt that you will do the best job without the involvement of the B&G, and you may be treading on the toes of the other photographer. When you start to think of the legal minefields here the implications are never ending. But legal issues aside - the most important thing is that the B&G may not want you there - it is their day, and they say who is there and what happens. You said "I really don't like this setup but they paid if full up front for my services" - just because they paid up front is no reason to make a bad business decision, nor does it justify taking a job that you acknowledge you are uncomfortable with. Do the right thing: give the money back and decline the job; make it clear to the client that unless you get the express say-so of the B&G, you will be unable to take this job on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo_dinning Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 BTW, I should also ask: what happens if you agree, go along on the day, and get asked to leave by the B&G? You will not be able to fulfil your contract to your client anyway and may have to issue a refund. Save yourself the hassle and short cut to 'no'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_kellar2 Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 I did call the pastor of the church and notified him of my client paying for the couples wedding shoot. I am sure that he will contact the couple and tell them that a photographer contacted him about this issue. He has my contact information and if they are going to have a problem I am sure they will call me about this. The wedding is on the 25th of October so that gives them a few weeks to call me. I shoot portrait journalism style so if I don't get the chance to pose people because of another photographer I will still be ok. I plan on taking my 70-300mm lens so I can shoot from anywhere in the church if there is another photographer there. Since I as paid for this shoot I plan on doing my job unless told otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_kellar2 Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 I called my formal employer about this issue and he had a few weddings like this also. He said there is no conflict of intrest if another photographer is there because a contract in Ohio can only hold the B&G for hiring another professional not family members or others who hire for various reasons. The primary professional can only stop the 2nd from shooting HIS poses but cannot do anything about them taking pictures of the event. I can legally shoot the wedding but not the reception unless permitted by the B&G as the reception is private and the wedding unless stated is open to any friends, family, fellow church members and other interested parties. I will have a refusal form incase I am asked to leave so I can cover any legal issues if they arise. I don't think there will be any problems because the client said that the couple didn't have a lot of money and most likely didn't have a photographer hired for their wedding. I called them this morning and she told me that I should not hae any issues with this job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 You can try to rationalize this any way you want.....it's still a bad idea and unethical. I don't trust the "leagaleeze" interpretation of whover it was that you consulted and it would definately be a "conflict of interest". Arriving at the venue, uninvited by the B/G with a refusal form on hand is not what I would consider good preperation on your part. Reassurances by whoever it was that hired you seems especially slim to me. Weddings can bring out the best in families but I've seen occassions where it can also bring out the worse....you may find yourself sandwiched in a particularly awkward and potentially ugly situation. I've witnessed well-intentioned family members who have reduced a bride to tears on her wedding day on many occassions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I, too, am immoveable on this one, James. In really simple terms, prior to the Wedding, planning is a simple triangle: Bride Groom Photographer. Bride and Groom have requirements. Photographer plans and explains how to deliver. Bride and Groom disagree with each other, Photographer waits and assists, until there is agreement. A triangle is a very strong structure, easily managed and easy to cater for at the Wedding. But already, at the planning you have a hexagon, and a possible heptagon at the Wedding itself . . . and IMO, it is all held together with sticky tape and chewing gum. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_kellar2 Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 The wedding was planed on the spur of the moment with less than 4 weeks. It is actually being held on a sunday right after the church service. From my experience weddings on Sunday especially after church service tend to be very small and poorly rehearsed. I have shoot weddings about 8 years ago just to build my portfolio without ever being invited. This wedding will bring back old memories and besides I get paid $1600 for my services and the couple get some really nice photos. If I see another photographer I will just say I am a friend of the family and really into photography. Unless he knows me that answer will fly. With the economy the way it is I am doing this gig. Right now business is good but how will it be a month from now, this is weighing in on my decision to shoot this wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 James, It took a long time to get to it, but IMO the really truly bottom line is: ``Right now business is good but how will it be a month from now, this is weighing in on my decision to shoot this wedding`` I had anticipated this to be the case. I truly understand this issue. I appreciate the effort you are putting into the decision and in that regard I feel for you and I do sincerely wish you the best of luck. But feelings & emotions (eventually) get in the way of good business protocol, IMO, and my understanding the weights upon your decision, and my empathy for you, does no change my opinion on the situation, and the course of action, one iota. Good luck, WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo_dinning Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 James - you've spoken to the pastor, your former employer and your client - but at no point have you spoken to the B&G - the two people who matter most IMO. On the one hand you say "I have beeenhooting weddings for the past 10 years and never had this happen without the couple knowing." and then "I have shoot weddings about 8 years ago just to build my portfolio without ever being invited." Further "and have been td not to disclose the client until delivery of the pictures" Firstly, it appears that you've made up your mind based on the money you will be receiving - that's of course up to you, but perhaps you were looking for justification to take the money and run and haven't received it here. So good luck in your decision - you've justified it to yourself and that's all that matters. However, there is no reason why you couldn't at least approach the B&G, legals aside, and present with the good manners to ask whether they would object to you taking photos at their wedding. You are after all a professional, not an amateur building your portfolio anymore. There is no reason why you have to disclose the client - you simply get permission from the B&G to attend and take photographs. There is a flip side to this: if the B&G have not arranged a photographer, it may be nice to get the B&G involved so that the best images can be supplied - what a fantastic and generous wedding present that would be with approval in all camps. You're hoping that there won't be a pro there who will recognise you - but this is not guaranteed, and of course people talk anyway. I still think it is worth reviewing this one on the basis that you are only as good as your last shoot - and if this goes wrong, or there are tears and tempers on the day, you may not work again - whether you are legally covered or not. Just my thoughts - I genuinely hope it works out for everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_kellar2 Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 I got my phone call today from the groom and it is a go. They were told from the pastor and are greatly happy that I will be there as they couldn't afford a pro themselves. What a relief! I thought this would happen, that is why I called the pastor so there would be no surprises. Thanks for the great replies. BTW I was going to cancel if I didn't get the approval as my buiness is too important to me to mess up over one wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 I'm glad it worked out for you and the B/G.....thanks for the followup info and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Ditto, many people never return, to tell the outcome. WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo_dinning Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Glad this has worked out James - thanks for letting us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherijohnson Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I can't wait to see the pictures, so I hope you will come back and share how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now