Isn't Manual mode just too slow and fiddly at a wedding?

[matt_needham]

"...how do you daytime Manual mode supporters defend this argument? "

 

By successfully shooting wedding using mostly manual exposure mode? Before I went digital my cameras didn't even have batteries, let alone auto-modes. I guess I got used to it, because running a camera in manual seems like a pretty simple thing.

 

I'll turn it around on you. How do you work in auto-modes all the time? The camera seems so dumb to me. It's so easily fooled.

[william l. palminteri]

Stu Nowlin , Oct 09, 2008; 09:02 a.m.....Sometimes wedding work reminds me of the old joke about anesthesiology, there is a lot of time when not much occurs punctuated by moments of sheer terror.....

 

Stu, my cousin did the research work on Malignant Hypertermia and is one of the few experts on the subject. He also works with the Malignant Hyperthermia Hotline, and has saved many lives. I sent him your joke, I think he'll enjoy it. Thanks,

 

Bill P.

[william l. palminteri]

Matt Needham , Oct 09, 2008; 09:04 a.m....I'll turn it around on you. How do you work in auto-modes all the time? The camera seems so dumb to me. It's so easily fooled....

 

You're right, and little children are easily fooled too. I wouldn't pass up the joy either species gives me, even if it means a few minutes in post, which I typically avoid. I've captured hundreds of photos that would have gotten away if I had to fuss with those settings. What a small price to pay for the joy of those photos!

 

Bill P.

[jo_dinning]

"how do you daytime Manual mode supporters defend this argument?" Answer - by being good at what you do.

 

Like others here, I have no wish to suggest what others should use - choices are available to cater for different styles

and tastes - everyone to their own.

 

Weddings do follow a format however (often dictated by others - venue, minister, B&G - not the photographer!) and

usually pros are familiar with the venues they shoot. So it is quite possible to predict the requirements for each

situation from a lighting point of view.

 

Manual all the way for me.

[christopher hartt dallas]

Hey, I'm all for cameras getting "smarter" and just dialing to "P" (Auto) mode for great shots. Maybe the next generation of bodies will be so intelligent that we can train chimps to shoot weddings with great results. Not only would that allow me to expand my photographer workforce economically, just think of all the high angle and unique shots those little guys could shoot :-)

[christopher hartt dallas]

Btw, has anyone noticed that Canon's two "Pro" bodies (1Ds3 and 1D3) don't even have "Auto" mode? They do have "P" mode, however.

[William Michael]

I understood David Shillings` comment, (Not Mark`s - he was merely quoting David), simply to mean a Wedding was scripted in the sense that the seasoned Photographer would know where the action would most likely be: just like knowing all the set plays of a football team; or why we go to rehearsals before we shoot the stills of a Play, later at the Full Dress Rehearsal.

 

I did not interpret David to mean that Weddings were boring, or that Wedding Photographers who were skilled in knowing what the scripts were most likely to be, would necessarily produce dull and boring images as a result.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, but it is just that I too have found there is a certain pattern and pace which has congruence through most Weddings, and that knowledge allows me to anticipate (as I mentioned above) where that excitement will most likely be.

 

Also knowing the general ``script`` affords the experienced more time to be aware and awake for those unexpected gems which pop up.

 

It is unfortunate, if indeed most Wedding Photographers in NYC are bored, annoyed, preoccupied, and would rather be doing something else, and looking like they don't care that the bride is overjoyed and the groom is having a ball with his buddies.

 

But, where there is inaction there certainly will be an action to counter it.

 

If NYC is so depressed of passion, IMO an experienced Photographer with enough passion not to sail on autopilot, could make a killing. :)

 

WW

[william l. palminteri]

William W , Oct 09, 2008; 10:25 a.m.....If NYC is so depressed of passion, IMO an experienced Photographer with enough passion not to sail on autopilot, could make a killing. :)

 

WW

 

 

Now THERE'S a concept! Once word got out that you did great cameos, etc. you'd probably be turning business away!

 

Bill P.

[William Michael]

> Btw, has anyone noticed that Canon's two "Pro" bodies (1Ds3 and 1D3) don't even have "Auto" mode? They do have "P" mode, however. <

 

Yes.

 

That also has been noted on other threads, and discussed.

 

My memory of those discussions is that ``P`` was not used often by those who had a 1 series (and contributed to the discussion).

 

Do you use P on yours?

 

WW

[christopher hartt dallas]

WW, "no" I don't use "P" mode. In fact, I had to check and make sure that the bodies actually had "P" mode.

[William Michael]

> Now THERE'S a concept! Once word got out that you did great cameos, etc. you'd probably be turning business away! <

 

Well I can claim some finesse in my aim. . .

 

I re wrote it twice, as the original had both ``cameo`` and ``lounging around`` in the script, also.

 

:)

 

WW

[William Michael]

> "no" I don't use "P" mode.<

 

Why (why not)?

 

WW

[William Michael]

I guess what I mean is . . . if you did not know it was there, are you familiar with P . . etc . . . and have previously decided not to use it, thereby it is irrelevant that it is there, or not.

 

Or are you just an M, Tv, Av, type of guy?

 

It is a sincere question asked of you: I note your thought patterns and passion on issues previous, and I wondered if this is an oversight or a decision.

 

WW

[William Michael]

I only just read this:

 

> I'm all for cameras getting "smarter" and just dialing to "P" (Auto) mode for great shots. Maybe the next generation of bodies will be so intelligent that we can train chimps to shoot weddings with great results. <

 

I am unsure . . . was this a jibe at my comment that I use P sometimes?

 

If it was you should read my first post, it places how I use the ``P`` mode in context.

 

I only ask because I am unsure of your motives, but not annoyed by them.

 

Thanks,

 

WW

[ilkka_nissila]

I don't think manually setting exposure conflicts with getting the moment, if you're practiced in the art. Guessing how much to compensate for a computer that "thinks" for you is far more difficult and time-consuming in my experience. If you use automatic exposure, even with compensation, you'll get shot-to-shot variations in exposure that need to be fixed in post-processing. If you use manual exposure and know what you're doing, the variations will be smaller and you can just copy adjustments to batches of images to get the punch just right if the camera doesn't have the right curve for you.

 

If you say that automatic exposure is the only way to go for quick candids, then you're grossly underestimating the skills of many photographers. For the first years with digital capture I used matrix with aperture priority most of the time, as I found that at low ISO there is a lot of leeway in postprocessing, but being tired of editing many images individually, I have recently gone back to full manual (spot and incident meters). I can a lot of the time just guess exposures or changes in the light and the shots come out fine. But this is due to a background with slide film. I imagine a professional photographer should do a lot better than I can with respect to this.

 

Here's the gist: you learn to see the light and adjust your exposures for the scene. You learn to judge the tone of clothes and skin and set the exposure accordingly. With manual exposure you can then continue to shoot in the same space without adjusting exposure, until there is a change in lighting or people move to a different area. If you are familiar with the type of event, you'll just know roughly what's going on and setting the exposure is no different from knowing where to stand for some shots. You just learn to do it. With automatic you're always going to get a bit unpredictable results. If you like save a bit of time not having to set exposures manually, you can use auto but you'll probably spend more time in post to fix the mess you leave behind.

[cjogo]

We shoot scripted --manual weddings ...most the whole day is on a time line -- and have plenty of time to fiddle. The B&G have 75% of their images finished > before they walk down the aisle. We move the subjects to the perfect light ...no chasing the subjects through varying light : raising havoc to some program mode. Of course, we have worked the same 4 venues for over 20 years and know the light from every corner > and the temperature stays year round a boring 68* with less than 20 days of rain. Predictable manual environment - all the way. :-)

[ned1]

I shoot outdoor formals entirely in manual using an incident meter. Incident metering is the one guaranteed way to get the bridal gown and groom's dark jacket right when they're standing together.

 

And when I can't incident meter, my first approach is sunny16 then chimp.

[jmichaelc]

How much creativity can one acheive using "P" mode? IMO, there is no difference in a point and shoot photographer than what can be acheived in P mode. A lot of photographers i know, including myself, use AV mode and Manual mode almost exclusively. When shooting non-flash and when you have enough light without any worry, AV mode allowes the photographer to adjust the apature for creative shooting while not having to worry about the shutter speed for fast pace work. When using flash outdoors, Manual mode is IMO best because you have control over the meter/flash output. Otherwise you are operating off the partial meter that can be several stops off realitive to the overall scene. Manual will eliminate this. When shooting indoors ambient non-flash, both AV (when you have sufficient shutter) and M are good choices. I prefer manual mode because you can pinpoint your exposure over a neutral area and be spot on exactly where you need to be. However, if you don't have sufficient shutter and you need to produce a flash ratio, manual is always the best choice due to the very same reason mentioned above. The best advice i would give to anyone is to know the triangle relevelance between aperature, shutter, and ISO and learn to shift these without thinking about it to acheive your vision. When you can do this and are able to intrupret your scene to achieve your vision, all this becomes irrelevant becasue you will always be where you want to be in terms of exposure. Being in control is the ultimate goal and is the only way you can rise above the enginners of the camera manufactures ie...Pmode.

[William Michael]

> How much creativity can one [achieve] using "P" mode? IMO, there is no difference in a point and shoot photographer than what can be [achieved] in P mode. <

 

Michael: Quite a deal, actually.

 

Do not be confused by what ``P`` is:

 

Note ``P`` is Program Mode on Canon DSLR, it is NOT full Auto, which is identified by the Green Rectangle, nor is ``P``, one of the Basic Zones Modes.

 

P is grouped with Tv Av and M, and is part of the selection choice on the 1 series bodies.

 

``P`` is a very interesting and useful mode, and in some of its functionalities are similar to Av, and Tv.

 

There is a world of difference between what can be done with a 1 series camera set on ``P``, (or for that matter a 20D, set on ``P) and a point and shoot . . . IMO.

 

But, skill and a camera phone, most likely will produce better images than ignorance with a 1D . . .

 

I think the lines of these two different issues are crossing.

 

And I think some comments do not understand how ``P`` works.

 

And I think the thread has gone a little off track from the original . . . and it might be being assumed or misread that using ``P`` is being advocated as ``the answer`` . . .

 

A quick glance through the respondents shows an over whelming number use ``M`` most of the time, and mainly all have articulated very similar reasons, including me.

 

WW

[john_meyer14]

Boy, my question certainly sparked off a debate! It's certainly been an interesting 'ride'.

 

Cutting to the chase, I'm definitely going to give Manual a try. I do agree that in a fairly static lighting scenario, e.g. formals outside, it's more likely to give consistent results.

 

However, I'm still not so sure about sunny and shade lighting. The probable three or fours stops difference and, I assume, the obvious need to adjust the exposure, coupled with me just starting to use only the AF-On button to focus (rather than the shutter button), means I might have my hands full! In these situations I might have to resort to AV mode.

 

So thanks for all your comments; I've really enjoyed them.

 

Regards

 

John

[arie_vandervelden1]

Wow I'm learning lots here - please keep it coming.

 

I recently developed an interest in weddings and flash photography. I grew up shooting AV: landscape, travel, wildlife, some portraiture. Pretty much all available light, with some fill flash when needed.

 

As pointed out by Michael Church, AV is what a lot of regular folks use because it allows direct control of DOF. It allows you to pick sweet spots of the lens. f/stop is what determines the look of the photo, for the most part I don't care about shutterspeed, and when shutterspeeds get too low I pump up the iso. Simple, right?

 

I tried shooting a few wedding last month, and of course I shot AV which I'm used to, and I switched to P when lighting (and shutterspeeds) dropped as the night wore on. I now realize this wasn't the optimal thing to do, and I've got so much to learn...

 

With AV I was struggling when my shutterspeeds were dangling back and forth across the x-synch speed line. Had I switched to TV, there would have been the barrier when you're forcing high shutterspeed, the lens is already wide-open, and the camera won't automatically adjust iso. I think M would be the way to go here. Then there's the "dragging the shutter" technique when backgrounds get dark - best done in M of course although P is pre-programmed by Canon engineers do try to accomplish something similar. I can also see how lightmeters can be fooled by white dresses and dark tuxes (WW's safer comment I think?) - better to meter ambient beforehand, set exposure with M, and then work the flash for foreground.

 

A newbie's question for you folks. Suppose I'm shooting indoors, the head table is backed by bright windows and the podium is backed by a dark wall. I've got a white ceiling, flash set to bounce. I'm panning back and forth between the speakers and the bridal party's reactions. AV (or TV or P for that matter) will decrease exposure for the head table shot and pump up the flash to fill, and for the podium it will increase exposure and decrease flash. How do you work this with M? I don't want blown-out background and purple fringes around the wedding party. I understand that with M you could decrease ambient on the podium shot which would give you more control to light the scene with flash. Maybe quickest and easiest to flip between AV for backlit and M for podium?

 

Anohoo, please carry on. Good discussion, very informative

[picturesque]

John--bright sunlight is actually easy to work in, because as mentioned above, it is extremely consistent. What I do when I have to be going between bright sun and shade is to set the bright sun EV on my manual camera mode and then set an appropriate f stop on AV or shutter speed on TV for use when I go into the shade. Then I just switch the mode dial as needed. Sometimes this involves an ISO change, and if so, I flip the mode dial and then change the ISO. Unfortunately, the flash always needs tinkering with as far as comp, so that must be done too but that is a constant. On my 5D I have one customized mode, and that is another alternative. I use mine for no flash, shutter priority, high ISO, because that saves me from having to flip the flash off and on.

 

I can see using an automated mode outside when going into variable conditions if the condition isn't bright sun. As mentioned above, the camera meter isn't all that great with bright sun. It wants to use an EV between the bright sun and the shadows (meaning blown highlights), so the contrastier the light, the worse the meter is at guessing a good exposure, and 2 stops comp sometimes isn't enough to overcome that tendency.

[jmichaelc]

Arie...i think i understand your question which is basically "Main table with strong back light due to windows, then the crowd in front of the table in neutral ambient".

 

Simple. Depending on which camera your using, you should have a scale within your viewfinder that constantly shows your ambient level in either -2 to +2 or (1D series) -3 to +3. Once you get well versed on controlling your manual controls without thinking about it, these adjustments are easily made on the fly. If you have strong backlight most of the time you have to choose what you want to expose because i've had situations where the speedlight at full power just isn't enough to balance out both scenes. Depending on the intensity of the scene, you can matrix meter with full power and try to balance, but more times than not, you will want to meter a neutral area (matrix) or spot meter your subjects and treat them both equal. This way your exposing the backlit area and the crowd in front of the table the same in terms of ambient levels within the same common space .If i'm shooting events quickly, this is what i would choose due to prioritizing the subject content. If however you want to balance the backlit area, you are going to have to take a little time and fine tune your manual adjustments to maximize this scene and that usually calls for reading the scene and adusting the flash output which both can be acomplished within a few seconds while never leaving your eye at the view finder if your well versed with your camera controls and where to adust not only your EV settings but also the flash output of the flash on the camera. Manual mode is still the best and most effective way to ensure correct exposure in this scenerio. Anything else opens up huge possibilies to exposure failure IMO.

[lou korell]

A camera has a lot of settings. They are all there for your use as tools of choice when you need them. Knowing what each will do for you in a given situation is what will give you the results.

 

For me, I will mostly shoot manual as it gives me the most complete control over my exposures. I decide how the camera will utilize the meter to "translate" my intent.

When I do not necessarily care about how much background is in the picture, at a reception for instance, background action is nice to have for the reactions and all around look of the moment. I can use flash and P mode there with reasonable security of acceptable exposures.

 

For the creamier portrait look, a wide aperture is my choice, but then I can use Av or M. Personally I find M to give me more consistent reliability with my Canon system. Aperture priority works better on my Nikon system.

 

Of course everyone's shooting style will and should dictate your choice for camera settings. What works well for one may be an absolute nightmare for another. A camera is just a tool. It's up to you to decide how it should help you create.

 

Lou

[lou korell]

As an addendum to the too slow and fiddly question, it just takes a lot of practice to work fast. What was it like when we didn't have autofocus? Remember? But we could still operate because we didn't have the stigma of slow vs. fast.

There was only one choice - learn to quickly focus - use your eyes! So with the advent of autofocus we have come to rely on an automated procedure and is it super fast compared to manual focus? Maybe not all the time. If it has to hunt in low light it isn't.

 

So as we change our habits to accommodate our conveniences are we working faster or are we just not aware anymore of what fast is? Think of your digital post processing. Used to be you dropped off the film and in a week or so you had prints. But you gained about 40 hours of being able to do something else. Faster?

 

It just takes a lot of practice with every aspect of working to be able to feel comfortable with the pace of the wedding event. When some things, camera settings for instance, become second nature, you may find manual is faster than auto. YMMV. :)

 

Lou