Isn't Manual mode just too slow and fiddly at a wedding?

[john_meyer14]

Surely, with the fast pace of a wedding - I'm thinking in particular of outside as guests are arriving and just

after the ceremony, shooting in Manual mode is just asking for trouble. Aperture mode is surely best, with a bit

of fill-in flash.

 

If it's, say, particularly sunny, the difference between one shot and the next could easliy be three or fours

stops; one in bright sun and the next in shade.

 

Trying to adjust the shutter speed without missing what might be a very spontaneous and unexpected shot, must be

very difficult.

 

Isn't this the reason why a lot of wedding photographers shoot Aperture mode during the day and Manual mode

indoors when lighting is more stable? They can't all be wrong.

 

Without wishing to appear provocative, how do you daytime Manual mode supporters defend this argument?

 

Regards

 

John

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I don't care to enter arguments around the forum, I really don't care what you do. Outside I often switch to P

mode,....... generally speaking shutter priority is a better and safer choice compared to aperture priority. IMO, I've

seen more bad wedding images here on the forum produced by wide apertures than by almost any other issue....with

the possible exception of lack of supplemental lighting (especially fill).

 

BTW, comments about the fast pace of a wedding speaks more to the photographer's inexperience than it does to

the nature of wedding photography. Weddings are so predictable that they're often scripted.

[rvalois]

Hi Ronald ...

 

When you write "... 1000 file ...", I assume you mean 1000 photographs ?

 

Your last comment gave me the first belly-laugh on this forum ... what a razor-sharp tongue you have <[;-0)))))

 

Ray

[markonestudios]

"BTW, comments about the fast pace of a wedding speaks more to the photographer's inexperience than it does to the nature of wedding photography. Weddings are so predictable that they're often scripted."

<p>Funny but so true :) Once you've done a few weddigns, it's pretty much scripted. As for the original question, I have no issue using manual. I also sometimes switch to P. I never use Aperture priority mode. Horses for courses...

[joseph_federer]

I use manual when appropriate (which is a LOT of the time, really)... specifically I almost always use it with flash work (on or off camera) or when I have a few seconds to 'get set' and lighting won't change quickly (such as during the wedding ceremony or first dance or what not)

 

I use apeture priority otherwise... times when lighting is changing quickly. I have no qualms about letting cameras (that I spent a ton of money on) help me get better photographs. If all you are using manual for is to get the 'meter' to read zero, why not just use a priority mode anyway?

[conraderb]

john - I agree that you should use whatever works for you.

 

I personally shoot nearly all the time in manual mode. The main reason I use it is because I like to lock in a manual setting, and then know that my exposures are good until the light conditions change.

 

The main reason I stay away from P/Tv/Av is because when I recompose to include a dark or light area, the exposure changes. Not good. I like getting a great exposure.

 

Of course, when things get crazy, I will switch to one or the other - usually P for Panic. However, in a situation where I have three seconds to adjust exposure, I do it, and then forget about it.

 

Also, I try to avoid taking photographs of guests in harsh sun as much as possible :-) I"m an open shade kind of guy!

 

Finally, just because many photographers do not use M doesn't mean that they know what they are doing - there are many good photographers, and many bad. There are many photographers who have super fancy metering cameras and whose work doesn't stand up to mine. And there are many photographers who use cameras without a light meter on board, and they are many levels above me.

 

In the end, it's not the tools you use, it's what your final product is.

[picturesque]

No, manual mode isn't too fiddly at weddings. Actually, automated modes can be too fiddly at weddings because you have to constantly be comping or worrying about comping them to get good exposures from frame to frame. With manual mode, you're in control, with automated modes, the camera is in control, with you second guessing it and trying to predict what it will do.

 

The latter can still be a valid way to go when you literally don't have time to even think about what settings to use, although one of the methods used from long ago was to meter various lighting situations in a 'walkaround' of the wedding venue, memorize them and be able to switch when going from one situation to another. However, in the hands of someone who already has command of exposure, automated modes can work great and are a great convenience. Used as a crutch, it ain't so good.

 

Your sunny situation is exactly where manual mode is the best way to go. Sunlight is very predictable. ISO 100, f11 @ 1/250th. You don't need to meter. Over time, you will be able to know your exposure for various kinds of shade at the ISO, aperture and shutter speed you most often use. Over time, you can adjust effortlessly as you go and be pretty close, if not dead on, as in the case for sunlight.

 

I use automated modes when it makes sense. I pre set my AV and TV for possible unpredictable action. I use my Custom mode on my 5D. Then, if something unpredictable happens, I just switch one control on the camera and start comping accordingly. The camera meter is better at some lighting situations and not so good at others. For instance, for even shade, the camera meter is pretty good at getting right on exposures. For bright sun, not so good without pretty deep comping.

 

Also--you have been warned about using AV without watching the shutter speed with an eagle eye... And I don't know a lot of wedding photographers that use AV during the day. Most of the wedding photographers I know use manual mode.

[christopher hartt dallas]

I use M mode during daytime precisely because the light is so variable - of course, I always use flash (usually Quantum T5) to make M mode work for me.

 

Even with the highly accurate spot metering of Canon 1D and 1Ds bodies, the Av mode during daytime gives me exposures that vary widely which results in LOT of of post process fixing.

[think27]

17 years ago I shot weddings and had an Canon F 1. Manual Focus, Manual metering, Manual Flash. In the

beginning - sure - it was challenging and maybe even "fiddly". After I had enough experience under my belt. A

snap...pardon the pun.

 

I shot manual for 10 years. When I first started shooting - an 8 hour wedding would be about 10-12 rolls of

film. I shoot very documentary work along with artsy shots - I would "miss" "some" candid moments due to

"fiddling". By the 10 year point - I could do everything manually so fast that I didn't miss much and was up to

25 rolls of film per wedding for a 7 hour wedding. Was I overshooting? No. 99% of my couples didn't have video

and wanted moment by moment coverage. I never stopped and could compose, catch, and manually set all my settings

and be spot on. In my case also - I'm actually a "speed reader"... I just happen to be lucky in that I can scan

a scene and catch "moments" very very quickly.

 

Anyway - the point is - if you are experienced, you can certainly shoot manual without missing a step or being

"fiddly". Just my opinion.

[mendel_leisk]

If you're shooting indoors, say for example with bright windows in the background in some shots, and not in others, I think dialing in exposure manually is *the* way to go.

 

As far as auto modes, I would stick to P (camera choosing aperture *and* shutter speed) over A (you choose Aperture, camera chooses shutter speed), unless I wanted some particular aperture.

[conraderb]

oh yes - I should mention, for indoor work with flash, I can't imagine anything BUT manual!

[dan_pallas]

I hope this isn't too much of a threadjack but to those of you who use manual:

 

What metering mode do you use and in what situation?

[dan_pallas]

and why?

[picturesque]

Dan--you might want to reread some of the answers. Most have posted what mode and when they use it. I use a hand held incident meter 100% of the time unless using an automated camera mode or don't need to meter at all because I know what to set on the camera (bright sun and inside with flash), and then, center weighted. You might want to do a search--this question is asked a lot.

[dan_pallas]

I did read it. They mentionned the exposure mode they use. most did not mention the metering mode the use with manual

exposure mode.

[think27]

Dan - the Canon F 1 has an amazing in-camera meter. Very easy and quick to asses as well. If the lighting was tricky... I'd meter something in the scene and decide how I was going to shoot.

 

For instance.. Lowish light in church. I'd either meter my hand in the light I'd be shooting ahead of time and open up a stop or two. I'd often shoot at a 30th at 2.8 and sometimes a 15th. Other times when it was brighter - I'd shoot at a 60th at 2.8 or if I were lucky - F4 or 5.6. (no flash) Sometimes I'd bracket if the light was changing during the ceremony.

 

Outside - I might meter the grass and open up a stop... Sometimes I'd just find items I knew were close to the right mid range.

 

Truthfully - after many years of experience... I would - just for fun - guess an exposure and then check it.

Even though I was film and bad exposures can be fixed at a lab - my lab always let me know if I was off. Mostly that meant it was time to send the camera for a check up. I'm not bragging here - it is just that after a long long time of shooting (also shooting slide film which really makes you aware of exposures) you just

know. And - that is why - it was not in any way too slow or fiddly. ;-)

[Mike Gammill]

Before I switch to Mamiya 645's for wedding photography I used a Maxxum 8000i on manual with a Sunpak AP52 plugged into the PC socket. Used custom function card to allow 1/2 shutter settings so I could have a 1/180 second sync speed. I could have used a dedicated flash and had a 1/200 sync, but not really worth the drawbacks. On the "i" series it was easy to accidentally shift the aperture on the A setting with dedicated flash. Plus my back up camera then was an EOS Rebel with a Wein Safe-Sync adapter and a second AP52 flash. Consistent exposure regardless of camera used because of manual exposure. I use the same two AP52 flashes today on my pair of Mamiyas. I even use the SafeSync so I can use an AP52 on my digital Rebel (manually of course).

[lou korell]

Think of it this way...weddings are constantly moving and adjusting for lighting is essential during the whole

event. The setting that offers the most control over what you are shooting is manual.

 

Most of the wedding photographers I know shoot in the manual setting for the greatest percentage of their shots.

Yes, we all try other settings for specific situations, but I think most choose manual for the best control.

 

When I don't use manual, I sometimes use P but mostly with flash. It gives me fairly consistent results in a

situation where I am moving fast in all directions.

 

Lou

[William Michael]

> Isn't Manual mode just too slow and fiddly at a wedding? Surely, with the fast pace of a wedding I'm thinking in particular of outside as guests are arriving and just after the ceremony, shooting in Manual mode is just asking for trouble. Aperture mode is surely best, with a bit of fill-in flash. <

 

IMO: No. Manual is quicker, and safer. My other options, for that scenario are, (in priority): Tv, then P (Canon); and Tv (Mam645)

 

***

 

> how do you daytime Manual mode supporters defend this argument? <

 

Simple answer:

 

1. Total control.

 

2. No compensations to factor.

 

3. Less PP time (digital) Less lab time (Film)

 

***

 

> If it's, say, particularly sunny, the difference between one shot and the next could easily be three or fours stops; one in bright sun and the next in shade. <

 

Yes correct: and it is (most often) consistently so.

 

Three or four . . . or even five: which is easy for me to remember.

 

In fact once I metered consistent light, in two different adjacent locations, I do not ``remember`` it: my finger ``know`` four stops . . . . Two SS + two ISO = four stops . . . a glance in the viewfinder confirms.

 

Just as my fingers ``know``: CEG / CEG / CFA / DGB / DFGB / CEG, without ME thinking about it at all, my ear simply confirms.

 

***

 

> Isn't this the reason why a lot of wedding photographers shoot Aperture mode during the day and Manual mode indoors when lighting is more stable? They can't all be wrong. <

 

I do not know why others choose to use what they use, I have suspicions that here are two broad groups.

 

If Av is indeed used by a lot of Wedding Photographers, I suggest many of the inexperienced ones are simply following a trend, because they think it is the best, rather than analysing what is the most suitable for the circumstance.

 

I expect that experienced Photographers, are making an informed choice based upon their training and experience, and their personal preference. If that is to use Av, I expect they are fully aware of the traps which lay therein.

 

I therefore term those who are sheep: ``wrong``, but those who are making a professional and technical choice ``correct``.

 

***

 

The minefield of traps is widened by factors (in no particular order) including these:

 

1. Pressures of time

 

2. Being lulled into not thinking, therefore not watching the SS ``I am in auto pilot, its OK``

 

3. Use of Varying Maximum Aperture Zoom lenses

 

4. Rapid variance of scene / lighting

 

5. Rapid variance of Camera Viewpoint relative to the light source

 

6. Rapidly changing light intensity (e.g. Dawn and Dusk)

 

7. Use of Flash Fill

 

8. The Photographer`s: inexperience, ignorance or arrogance.

 

The minefield is further exacerbated by any combinations of the above.

 

This and other forums; technical colleges; camera clubs; and schools, are littered with poor images as a direct result of the MISuse of Av, where the photographer was convinced it was the ``best`` shooting mode choice. If you research it, it is easy to see for yourself: I have commented on many occasions here at Photonet on this topic, I think however, it is improper to link to them.

 

***

 

I concur: Weddings are scripted.

 

The pressure of working under time, for the inexperienced, often presents as poor technical skills simply because the was not enough time to get (primarily) the exposure parameters and framing correct, because they were not three moves ahead of the pace.

 

The pressure of working under time for the seasoned, more often presents as deciding whether to wait for a second or a third bite, always seeking that elusive perfect shot: knowing full well that time is running out, and that they must stay three steps ahead of the pace, and be in the correct spot for the next one.

 

***

 

> Without wishing to appear provocative <

 

As one who comments consistently and passionately on this topic, I see no provocation in the question: I hope my answer helps better explain my thinking, and my passion, it often sad to see the results of assumptions and honest ignorance.

 

WW

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[William Michael]

Side question: > What metering mode do you use and in what situation? < (DP)

 

This question has been asked often and there is a lot in the archives, as a search will reveal.

 

Me, mostly:

 

20D: Partial Metering (PM)

 

30D: Partial Metering

 

5D: Spot metering and or Hand Held (HH) Light meter

 

Film rig: HH Incident Light meter / Flash Meter and or HH spot meter.

 

 

Why?

 

Because I did not use any Digital Camera for a job, until I practiced for about 8 months to understand the

functionality, limitations and outputs of them.

 

Understanding the nuances of the camera`s lightmeter is paramount to my controlling any situation.

 

I first learnt on 20D and PM suited the way I think, meter, focus, compose / recompose and compensate the

metering in my head.

 

The 30D just followed suit, even though it offers spot metering, when using the 20D or the 30D, I am playing the

same Focal Length with any particular lens, so I (usually) keep the consistency of metering with PM, it helps my

brain not to waste time thinking: the 20D and the 30D are completely interchangeable for my brain: less time wasted

on thinking.

 

The 5D allows me to think in zones, and I use the spot meter that way, meter, meter, meter, compute, set

parameters, expose.

 

Mostly I use the 20D or 30D on the fly, and the 5D at a slower pace. If the 5D is used at pace, sometimes I will

select PM, sometimes I leave it on Spot Meter and calculate: I do not know what I do most.

 

The Film rig is mainly used for formals; that explanation should suffice.

 

***

 

BTW: in my first answer I mentioned I use `P` (Program Mode).

 

More correctly I use P, AND use Program Shift, within that P mode. The latter point is important to note.

 

WW

[cjogo]

I started in Manual mode many years ago. Sure > at first it has a curve ---but I never really learned how to use the other programs >> SO...its manual only. <p> Two of us shot an evening convention this week --400+ attendees > we had 2 hours to cover them all ...shot ever exposure with a RAW ~ Manual flash and lock your manual f stop/shutter ,,,just have to know your footage. Only have to adjust your flash :: from 7 ft to 9ft (read your histogram) -- A lot easier than all those programs & little or no CS time. There are still only about 4 combination exposures & 3 ISO ~~ you really need , that's it. <p>

 

"Manual is quicker, and safer." WILLIAM W

[william l. palminteri]

.....Mark Anthony Kathurima , Oct 08, 2008; 09:01 a.m......"BTW, comments about the fast pace of a wedding

speaks more to the photographer's inexperience than it does to the nature of wedding photography. Weddings are so

predictable that they're often scripted."

 

That's why most wedding photographs look scripted, or 'staged'. If you don't see the excitement, you won't

photograph the excitement. Most wedding shooters that I've seen look bored, annoyed, preoccupied, and would

rather

be doing something else. They look like they don't care that the bride is overjoyed, the groom is having a ball with his

buddies, etc. Those are the shots that count, and that makes the event VERY fast paced, if you're going to capture

that 'vibe'. But for many wedding shooters it's just another job, and it shows.

I do quite a bit of 'cameo' work, and full auto is the ONLY way to go!

There, I said it, "Full Auto"!

See, I've got a whole crew of Nikon engineers inside the box doing the calculations for me, and I can concentrate on

the art, the excitement of the moment. Many times I've been standing next to some 'manual' guys, and before they

get their settings in, I've gotten

ten shots, and then the scene's gone, at which point I say "want these ?"

I get some seriously dirty looks from these twiddlers, but I've got the shots, and the sunset's history.

Mother Nauture isn't going to re-stage it for you.

I've shot many hundreds of hours of manual, by the way, I learned on full manual cameras forty five years ago. No

auto anything, handheld light meter, wet developing, enlarging, printing, the works.

Make mine auto !!

See you in the lounge,

 

Bill P.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Bill, That's an awfully wide brush that you're using to paint "most wedding photographers".....while there are some fleeting moments at a wedding, it's rare that the actual pace is too fast to stay on top of your settings, whatever those settings might be.

[william l. palminteri]

Dave, sad to say, but here in NYC that's been my experience. Weddings here are done by 'mills', catering halls that

really 'bang 'em out'. I've heard that in different parts of the country, weddings are far more laid back. The latest thing

here in my area is video at weddings. Now the 'still' guys are tripping over the 'video' guys, and competing with their

lighting, cables, etc. Also, many photo guys shoot two weddings a day. There's very little if any craft here,

just 'bang 'em out, PAY ME and...... NEXT !

I hope that narrows the brush a little.

 

Bill P.

[stu_nowlin]

From shooting years ago with manual Mamiyas to my current Canon 1Ds/1D3s I have used whatever tool was needed for the situation. P ("professional" mode, I hear) rarely produces consistency and requires more PP for me. Sometimes the action is so hot and the light so variable that I do use P and depend on the engineering to get me close to my exposure / WB parameters. I use M when I can for consistency. Creative shots usually require other solutions.

 

I have never shot a scripted wedding. They have all been fun, always get my creative eye working overtime and very fast-paced. I guess those Chicago brides are zombies.

 

Sometimes wedding work reminds me of the old joke about anesthesiology, there is a lot of time when not much occurs punctuated by moments of sheer terror.

 

Stu