shooting in the dark

[dan_tripp]

I just shot my second wedding with my k200 last weekend and the wedding was outdoor in the evening/night. I was

using my 50 mm f/1.4, my Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, and a Sigma flash with a Gary Fong Lightsphere, but could not get

the focus to lock. I tried switching to manual, but almost all of them were blurry. What are your suggestions for

shooting in the dark?

 

I also noticed a beep when I was in the manual mode. I assume that means I locked in focus, but how can I do that

faster?

 

Thanks.

Dan Tripp

http://www.missionphoto.org<div></div>

[personalphotos]

Dan, this is a challenge for any wedding shooter. my technique ids to look for high contrast subjects/items that are on the same plane as the person or object I need to get in focus for the shot. Then I stop down a bit to help get that as sharp as possible.

 

So if I want a particular face in focus but it's dark and the face lacks contrast. I have the camera at ISO 400-800 and in spot focus mode. Then lets say the subject is wearing a black jacket with a white shirt. I'll point the red box right at the spot where the contrast is strongest and on the same plane (or as close to) the face. I'll have my finger on the AF/MF switch to shut it off if needed or just lock the focus and hold it to recompose and shoot.

 

Doesn't always work, but enough times that I can get enough shots to save the day.

 

I will also switch to manual sometimes and use the AF confirmation the same way as above and then fire 3-5 shots with a range of focus points. So I'll try to get the focus right and shoot. Then I'll BF a little and shoot and then FF a little and shoot. It's hit and miss but with luck 1 of those 5 shots with enough DOF will be in focus.

[personalphotos]

Dan Btw that is shot that really turns me off! A smoke touching the back of the camera. How nice! What brand could you tell?

[shaloot]

You can try pressing the shutter down as you focus and as soon as it confirms focus it will fire the shutter... make sure the custom setting that sets the shutter to release only when focus confirmation is enabled. Also, does your flash have the infrared setting to help with low-light focus?

well... the first bit works on the k10d, not sure about the k200....

[daniel_tong1]

[[[[[[[[[[[[Dan Tripp : I just shot my second wedding with my k200 last weekend and the wedding was outdoor in the

evening/night. I was using my 50 mm f/1.4, my Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, and a Sigma flash with a Gary Fong Lightsphere,

but could not get the focus to lock. I tried switching to manual, but almost all of them were blurry. What are your

suggestions for shooting in the dark? I also noticed a beep when I was in the manual mode.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

 

Dan,

 

My suggestion is to use your Tamron at 28mm F.5.6 or even F7.1 and bounce your flash (if ceiling is low and white).

Ideally you should shoot 20mm to have bigger DoF. If doing manual does not intimidate you, calculate your DoF to

ensure that your subject say 5-8 ft away will be in focus no matter what. Try that in your living room with little light

as practice. You be fine.

 

Daniel

[dan_tripp]

Peter, that was an old Nikon, I don't think the cig. was touching the camera.

 

Daniel, there was no ceiling, it was outdoor. So are you saying just set the lens to 28mm and shoot like it's a prime?

[mc2imaging]

The answer to your question is hyperfocal.

 

It might take some work to find the hyperfocal points on a zoom lens, but I shoot wedding receptions on dark dance

floors all the time with my 16-50 DA*. I set the aperture at f/8, keep it on the wide end (wide angle lenses have more

forgiveness for focus error) and set the focus a little short of infinity and turn AF off. Just pop and run. Occasionally I

might goof and get a little too close, but I NEVER miss a shot because I'm waiting on an AF lock.

 

Primes are usually easier to run in hyperfocal (many older Pentax lenses had a distance point and aperture marked red),

but my approximation on my zoom has served me well.

[miserere_mei]

Everything you ever wanted to know about hyperfocal focusing:

 

http://www.dofmaster.com/hyperfocal.html

 

And never underestimate the power of good guesswork with a 28mm :-)<div></div>

[darlene_taylor]

The cigarettes are Camels...the pack is on the table.

[daniel_tong1]

[[[[[[[[[[[Dan Tripp , Aug 18, 2008; 10:56 p.m.<br><br>

Daniel, there was no ceiling, it was outdoor. So are you saying just set the lens to 28mm and shoot like it's a

prime?]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<br>

<br>

Yes. I think Matthew McManamey has the same answer as mine (by going HYPERFOCAL!). Basically you should

try to get as much as depth of field to ensure sharpness of subject. In your case as you have Tamron 28-75 f/2.8,

then 28mm gives you the largest dof. Ideally, a FA20mm would be ideal as it gives you more. Of course you will not

have bokeh. <br><br> Matthew is right. Once you set your lens at 28mm F5.6 and the focus at 5 ft, I believe you can

walk though the guests and keep firing as long as your subjects are at around 5 ft from you. You probably cannot

set it to F8 to get the maximum dof as it will be very dark indeed

<br><br>

This is an extreme case of using even manual focus lens and you really just do not need to focus at all. This is a

16mm (with big DoF). All I need was to set the lens to near focus say 2 ft and I kept firing without worrying about

focusing at all.

 

<br>

<br>

<img src="http://www.pbase.com/danieltong/image/71926280/large.jpg">

<br><br><br>

My left hand was holding the subject with my right hand clicking. There was no need to focus at all

<br><br><br>

Daniel, Toronto

[joe_jackson4]

"What are your suggestions for shooting in the dark?"

 

Wide open fast prime, high ISO, flash off, SR on, as much practice/luck as you can get and a generous helping of

blind faith...

[daniel_tong1]

Paul,

 

The subject question was about using flash in a relatively dark environment.

Basically my suggestion is for fast lens (zoom like what Dan has) at F5.6/7.1, high iso , flash on, SR on and some practice. I have to stress not much luck or blind faith is involved. Shooting HYPERFOCAL (re Matthew's note above) are calculated and full-proof move. Simple physics.

 

Daniel

[daniel_tong1]

I meant fool-proof move.

[daniel_tong1]

Paul

 

Using "wide open fast prime" will guarantee blurry image like the FA50mm of the OP in that circumstance. With paper thin DoF at 50mm at F1.4, no way any body can get sharp image

[miserere_mei]

I would like to make clear to Dan that wide lenses do not have a larger DoF than telephoto lenses. What determines the DoF is the aperture. <b>For a given subject size on your CCD/film, the DoF is independent of focal length</b>.<br>

<br>

For example, say you're taking a photo of one of the guests and you want the frame to be filled vertically by your subject from the waist to the head. You can accomplish this standing close the the subject and shooting at 28mm, or standing about 3 times further and shooting at 75mm, right? The DoF will be exactly the same if you use the same aperture in both cases.<br>

<br>

I just wanted to make this crystal clear so Dan doesn't think he's actually gaining a DoF advantage by going wide angle and taking a few steps forward to take his shots. The reason wide lenses appear to have a larger DoF is because the FoV is larger. The real advantage of shooting wider is also that you can shoot slower shutter speeds, which can be an advantage in low light.<br>

<br>

More about DoF and its independence on focal length <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dof2.shtml">here</a>.

[trw]

If you're not able to achieve focus lock, It's too dark to burn in the ambient anyways, so stop shooting wide open. Stop

down, Zone focus (related to hyperfocal, but closer), and fire away.

 

Also note that most acceptable DoF charts are based on an 8x10 print. If you can safely assume that most grab shots will

be printed at most 6x8, you can open up a stop more than the zone focus calculations would say. If the calculation you're

using is based on 35mm cameras you can open up another stop again.

 

Don't most dedicated flashes have an AF assist mode anyways?

[dan_tripp]

Great advice everyone. Miserere thanks for making this very clear. I have one more question, now that I know where to stand and how to setup my camera. What should I do with my flash? I had too many pictures over exposed, but maybe that was because I was shooting wide open.

[joe_jackson4]

"With paper thin DoF at 50mm at F1.4, no way any body can get sharp image"

 

Depends where you position the paper... :)

[kari v]

"With paper thin DoF at 50mm at F1.4, no way any body can get sharp image"

 

Interesting, I don't seem to have that problem.

[daniel_tong1]

Paul ,

 

I was exaggerating. Technically you can squeeze the subject you want to focus in a DoF as thin as F1.4

 

Kari,

 

I only have an F50mmF1.7. I barely handle shots done at F2 even with a split focus screen. I do not see even a sharp F1.4 shot in the whole photo.net site. Maybe I have not surfed that much as you do.

 

Daniel , Toronto

[andrewg_ny]

None of <i>"Wide open fast prime, high ISO, flash off, SR on"</i> will help get images in focus, which was Dan's

stated issue. Check that, 'fast prime' might help (wide open not necessary) to allow AF sensors or Dan's eyes to

better see what he's focusing on.

 

<P><i>"I also noticed a beep when I was in the manual mode. I assume that means I locked in focus, but how can I

do that faster?"</i>

 

<P>This focus confirmation uses the same sensors and logic as the autofocus mechanism so I wouldn't expect this

to work much better than autofocus, and in manual focus mode you won't get the benefit of the AF assist lamp

either. Faster glass can help to some extent to provide more light to you and the sensors when focusing. Maybe

don't completely give up on the focus confirm though--at least unlike the AF module you are smart enough not to

spend a second or two racking the lens from min to max focus when you get only a little bit confused, so it may

help yet. And combined with a small enough aperture for generous depth-of-field, when it beeps, even if you have

a hard time getting it to 'lock', it will likely be close enough.

 

<P>People also have different definitions of 'sharp image'. The original poster's scenario of people milling

around at a wedding doesn't seem very conducive to carefully selecting exactly which point you want to be in

focus--at f/1.4 even a single person may not be very sharp front-to-back (at 8 feet, DoF is only five inches with

50mm @f/1.4). So not to say that one can't get part of the image sharp, or that an image can't be attractive

done this way, but it seems that the original poster was looking to significantly improve his percentage of

keepers while shooting a variety of subjects at an event. I'm thinking that suggesting wide open with f/1.4

glass isn't the best advice, particularly given that his stated issue was inability to achieve autofocus lock!

 

<P>Not to mention the fact that the lens resolution is generally increasingly poor with aperture wider than f/2.8

for most of these fast-fifties.

[joe_jackson4]

Andrew, Dan asked for suggestions for "shooting in the dark"... That was mine... :) He's free to ignore it, of course, and I'm certainly not asking anyone to agree with me here, but that's simply what I would do in such a low light situation.

 

Slap on a fast prime, open it up and take yer chances, I say... :)

[miserere_mei]

Daniel wrote: "I only have an F50mmF1.7. I barely handle shots done at F2 even with a split focus screen. I do

not see even a sharp F1.4 shot in the whole photo.net site. Maybe I have not surfed that much as you do."

 

Daniel, most of these were f/1.4 on the FA 50mm:

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/Miserere/TheCelloChixLizardLounge10July2008

 

Of course, the DoF on APS-C is greater than on full-frame, so we have an advantage there. Now, I wouldn't

recommend shooting at f/1.4 unless there's no other option (or you're looking for the small DoF), but it can be

used when necessary.

[joe_jackson4]

Mis, you took those at f/1.4...? Why, that's impossible... :)

 

I suppose one option is flash. But OK, I ignored that, because using flash isn't really shooting in the dark, is it? :) I mean, you're turning a light on every time you take a pic... And let's face it, sometimes that light doesn't look too good... Best avoided, I say.

 

Better option...? Hire someone to stand next to the light switch all night, and get them to turn the room lights on for a few seconds at the appropriate time. It's only marginally more annoying than flash, and the light will probably be much better.

[michael_kuhne]

That photo was with flash??? It is disturbingly underexposed. If all settings were auto, the camera should not have fired unless focus was achieved, and the flash output should have done a much better job of illumination, unless this was beyond the distance of the flash's capability. The Pentax built in flash is supposed to have a prefire to help focus in dark conditions, and a Pentax flash unit has an infra red type focus helper. But these work only up to 20 feet or so.