About the quality of Alpa, and using lenses wide open

[christian_balslev_van_rand]

Well, this is a very exclusive forum, for a very exclusive crowd that I hope to join soon :-) I use Leica

regularly, M6 and M8, but I have been toying with the idea of acquiring an Alpa ever since I first held one in a

store, and afterwards saw the pictures you could make with it. I was astounded about the feel, and especially the

compactness of the thing. However, I haven't been doing roll-fil guestimation before, so I'm a bit wary of

spending all those bucks. I have been thinking about trying out the upcoming Fotoman 6x9 with a Rodenstock 55mm

Apo-Grandagon, cos' that's the lens I would get for an Alpa to begin with. However, I am going to be using it

mainly handheld, so I would prefer not to have to stop down to f/16 to get decent results. And now we are finally

getting to my question. As I understand it, it is the legendary precision and qualitycontrol of Alpa that allows

using the largeformat lenses at wider apertures than normal, and I guess Fotoman can't deliver the same quality

(at all), so I'm in doubt as to whether acquiring the Fotoman will help me try out Alpa-style photography at all.

What is your advice? Should I get a Fotoman kit to try it out, or should I just wait, save up and get an Alpa kit?

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

The hyperfocal distance for a 55mm lens on 6x9 is about 9 feet at f/16. It's pretty safe to state that you'll be able to shoot your lens at wider apertures than that. You may find the following DOF table interesting:

 

http://dofmaster.com/doftable.html

 

DOF is a characteristic of the lens and format, not of the camera. Alpas are stunningly nice, but you can get the same results with a less expensive camera if you use identical lenses.

 

I don't own either an Alpa or a Fotoman, but my 6x7 Mamiya 7 isn't too different from 6x9 for DOF. And I even shoot, at times, a 4x5 Crown Graphic hand held. So what you are considering is reasonable.

[john_brewton]

Where did you get the idea Fotoman can't deliver the same quality as an Alpa? I assume you are referring to IQ? That's plain silly. It's also silly what Alpa is now asking for their 12 TC. I suppose the Euro versus Dollar is responsible. Sure I'd like to have an Alpa. But I can afford a Fotoman and that's what I ended up buying. And I'm not a bit apologetic about it. Funny, I've never seen an Alpa image on their website. OTOH, Fotoman has many - check'em out.

[stuart_richardson]

If you are going to shoot film, save yourself the hassle and get a mamiya 7 (or even a fuji 6x7 or 6x9), it is thousands

cheaper, better ergonomically (a grip with a proper shutter release, simple attached winding lever, a normal shutter speed

wheel, AE, exposure compensation, easier lens changes), but most importantly, it has a built-in rangefinder. Unless you

are going to be on a tripod ALL the time using a ground glass, the Mamiya will focus far more accurately, thus obviating

any perceived advantage of the optics in the Alpa. It does not matter if your lens resolves 20 more line pairs per millimeter if your focus is

off by even an inch or two. No amount of stopping down will remedy this -- the point of focus is a plane, and everything outside that plane

will be less sharp. As long as the rangefinder is properly calibrated, the Mamiya will correctly place that plane of focus every time. The

Alpa relies on your eyeball or a ruler, neither of which is as accurate. And if you are going to be on the tripod ALL the time, a 6x9 view

camera will be

far more flexible. Trust me, the Mamiya 7 wide angles are second to none. Literally...the wide angles in particular are

without fault. I would love to see an example of it if someone can prove that one of the Alpa lenses is better than the

43mm f/4.5 Mamiya. I am not trying to be contrarian or anything, it's just that the benefits of Alpas are really in that 1.

the larger models have shifts rise/fall. 2. You can mount medium format digital backs on them. <P>Honestly, if you are

going to be doing handheld photography as you say, save yourself thousands of dollars, tons of aggravation and a lot of

out of focus pictures and just get a Mamiya 7, Fuji 6x9 or a Plaubel Makina. Alpas are wonderful, beautifully precise, but

ultimately cumbersome tools. If you are looking for a medium format equivalent to your Leicas, it's the Mamiya. Sorry to

be so blunt. And yes, I have used all these cameras.

[christian_balslev_van_rand]

About Fotoman quality, I certainly don't think they can't deliver quality, otherwise I wouldn't consider them. It's just that, I had heard/read that it was the extreme precision and craftsmanship of Alpa that allowed you to use the lenses at wider apertures, and considering the very reasonable cost of the Fotoman, I just had some doubts as to whether they could achieve the same precision. Also, I guess you mount the lenses yourself on the Fotoman cone, and I'm not sure about how I would achieve the same precision in my livingroom, as Alpa engineers do at their factory, that's all. So actually I'm doubting my own handiwork, not Fotoman's :-)

And about the Mamiya, Plaubel ideas, I certainly have been considering them, and still am. Especially the Plaubel seems to be nice and compact, very good for travel. The Fuji rangefinders simply seem too big, although I know they should deliver excellent quality. Maybe the lack of a rangefinder on Fotoman/Alpa will be the dealbreaker, I don't know yet. I would love some further commentary on these issues.

[hakon_soreide]

I went from a Leica M6 to a Mamiya 7II some years ago, and the transition was quite an easy one, for the Mamiya feels both comfortable and light to use, the viewfinder is big and bright (though not as nice as the M6 one), and the pictures come out pin sharp - even handheld down to 1/15 and 1/10s, which was great for that slow Velvia 50. The size of the camera and the grip simply makes it easier to handhold steadily than anything else I've used.<p>

Did I mention the pictures were pin sharp? I looked at one of my chromes one day and saw two cables on a distant bridge still discernible at less than 1/6000 of an inch apart. I'd call that sharp.<p>

A good-quality used Mamiya 7II with a 65mm or 80mm lens shouldn't cost you more than 12.000 for an exc+ or mint, and would perhaps run down to about 8.000 for a perfect one that only has cosmetic flaws.

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I really love using my Mamiya 7 II. The focus is extremely accurate, and the lenses are superb. It's really a question of aspect ratio - are you wed to 6x9?

[jim_landecker]

If you're focusing by guesstimation and shooting handheld at wide aperture and possibly slow shutter speeds, I would guess that the extreme precision and craftsmanship aren't going to give you any better images than a Fotoman. If you're concerned about mounting the lens on the cone, you could go to a camera technician to have it installed and calibrated. The Fotoman has a nice straight film path without the reverse curl that other film backs have, so you should get good film flatness, and if the body is well machined (a camera technician could check that aspect too), you can expect pictures that are as sharp as the lens can produce. Otherwise, if you really want accurate focus combined with sharp lenses, the Mamiya 7 recommendation is sound advice (the 50mm is an awesome lens).

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I like your web site, Jim. Nice work!

[rodeo_joe1]

Any camera is just a box for goodness sake! A box for holding a lens and shutter at one end, and a filmholder at the other.

 

Does the Alpa use a vacuum to hold the film flat? Err, no! Does it have a glass pressure plate? Again no! So it's just as imprecise as any other "off the shelf" medium format camera, because it doesn't matter if the film track is machined to a micron tolerance, the film will still bulge and wrinkle inside the camera sitting wherever it likes.

 

I must admit that this camera really looks the business, and if I'd machined it myself, I'd be really proud. However, false precision is as bad as a lack of precision, and there's no point in over-engineering one component when the real need is somewhere else. In this case the precision needs to be in the film back and focusing arrangement, and not in the box holding the two together.

 

I agree with Jim, Hakon and the rest that the "cheap" Mamiya 7 has got the precision and design right where it counts - in the focusing, optics and film path. Large format lenses are meant to cover, well, large formats, and their performance in the centre of the image circle is somewhat compromised because of this.

 

You might like the feel, comfort and prestige of driving a Rolls-Royce car, but most kit-car sportsters will leave you eating their dust.

[christian_balslev_van_rand]

Thanks so far guys,

I guess, maybe I'll keep thinking a little bit before deciding... Another option would be the Hasselblad SWC, small and compact, but the lens is the stuff of legend, and the images I have seen made with it are gorgeous. But a quick search showed me that there are a gazillion versions of it, and on some of these the shutter supposedly scratches the rear lens element. Any experiences with the SWC? Or maybe I should just quit all this retro stuff and get the Mamiya with a 43mm or 50mm..... All in all I'm really lookin for a compromise; great wide angle image quality, on roll-film, in a compact package, so I'll want to bring it with me on vacation.

[stuart_richardson]

The SWC is terrific. But the SWC has the same problem as the Alpa -- no way to focus. The 43mm in the Mamiya is

also a Biogon. The patent on the biogon ran out ages ago and Mamiya essentially copied the original 10 element version

that was made for large format cameras. The SWC is smaller than the Mamiya though. But again, it lacks a focusing

method (other than ground glass), it has no meter, requires two different backs to shoot 120 and 220, shoots a smaller

film size and cannot use any other lenses. Rodeo Joe had a good point -- the difference here is like comparing a

beautiful old Jaguar to a Mitsubishi Evo or Subaru WRX STi. These cars don't have the mystique, handmade feel or

beauty of the old Jag, but they will run rings around it. <P>The thing you need to decide is whether you are more

interested in feeling like you will have better pictures or actually having better pictures. There is nothing wrong with the

first one, but if you are not as concerned with the user experience as you are with the images, then the Mamiya is the

way to go. <P>I will put my money where my mouth is...here is the 43mm (handheld): <P><img

src="http://www.stuartrichardson.com/gjogv-town-view-bw.jpg"><P>Here is a crop...you can make out the fence posts

from all that way away...maybe a bit less than 1km? I am not sure. It was not close though. It is a 3200 dpi scan from

slide film (converted to BW), no sharpening. The fuzziness is from the film at its limits and the scanner. Plenty more

detail from the lens in the camera. <P><img src="http://www.stuartrichardson.com/gjogv-town-view-crop.jpg"><P>This

performance is more or less edge to edge. Anyway, buy whatever you like, but please do at least hold them in your hand

and get a feel for them before you disregard them. The Mamiya is great ergonomically, but it does feel cheap. The

results are amazing though.

[shadowleaves]

Either Alpa or Fotoman has only scale focusing, and thus I'm assuming you're comfortable with it rather than rangefinder-coupled focusing. Otherwise forget both of them.

 

I have handled a Fotoman 612 for a short period of time and the build quality really impressed me. I don't think Alpa's claimed "high-precision" will make any practical difference compared with the upcoming Fotoman 6x9, especially considering the inherent error with scale focusing. Plus, Alpa's price-tags for its lense are simply ridiculous, IMHO. With the price of an Alpa lens you could get yourself an entire package of Fotoman 6x9 with Horseman 6x9 back, 3 lense and I'll bet $100 that no one can tell the images apart taken by the two cameras, given that they're fitted with the same model of lense.

 

The only disadvantage of Fotoman is its viewfinder. The mask is placed in the middle of the optics, leading to huge error in framing if your eye is a little bit away from the center of the eyepiece. Solution is easy: get a Cosina-Voigtlander or Zeiss Ikon bright-line viewfinder for their 35mm cameras. 6x9 has the same aspect ratio as 35mm so you just need some easy calculation to figure out which viewfinder you should get.

[shadowleaves]

I have used Mamiya 7 as well; their lense are absolutely the king of resolution among all medium format lense. Mamiya 7's 50mm, 80mm and 150mm I owned easily blow Hasselblad's latest 50 CFI, 80 CFE and 150 CFI away. However Mamiya has one big problem: color rendition. I never like the color of slides out of my Mamiya 7. They're shifted towards green/blue way too much compared to Zeiss, Rodenstock and Fujinon lense. Even Schneider lense (which are considered cool among German lense) are warmer than Mamiya's. I finally sold my Mamiya 7 kit precisely for that. I do miss the sharpness of Mamiya lense a lot, though.