Some newbie questions about LTM came and lens

[kevin h. y. lui.]

Hello all,

 

I am new to Leica and know very little about it. I order a Leica thread mount camera, which I guess it should be

pre-war IIIc or IIIB. I remember the camera has its s/n starting with 286 and something and the VF is next to the

RF. The seller also picked up an Emlar 50/3.5 (w/o coating and no scratches; s/n : 35 and something) for me and

he said it is the best lens. Because my salary has not come so I reserved it.

 

Here are some of my questions:

 

1.The shutter curtain looks fine and without any holes. However, the shutter curtain's cutting looks bad at its

end and it just like glued. Is that all pre-war LTM cameras look like this? And will that cause any problem in

the future? The shutter works fine and operate quietly, although the slow speed (1s) sounds sticky.

 

 

2. I like lenses with f/2 because it allows me to use a higher speed in in-door area. I know that Leica has

produced numbers of different types of f/2 lens. As my salary is limited, which lens is best to use? And which

one prove the best result? And is that sufficient for me to use the Elmar?

 

3. Because I want to save my money, I want to CLA the Leica by myself. Is that any websites that can be my

references?

 

Thank you!

[hultstrom1]

Hello Kevin, I have no experience with LTM cameras, so I will leave both 1 and 3 alone. As for two, since you are looking for cheat LTM lenses, might I suggest looking into Voigtl�er lenses many consider them to provide the most lens for the money compared with modern Leica and Zeiss. Indeed they often get better reviews than old Leica lenses. Check out cameraquest.com and check the classifieds here and at rangefinderforum.com.

 

/M

[john_shriver]

The end of the shutter curtain is normally folded over a metal strip, glued, and ideally sewn as well. One shutter curtain you should see the fold, that one you will also see the rubberized surface. The other one will not show the fold, and you will see the fabric side.

 

To do your own CLA, I would start with Tomosy's book on the subject. Also, the old National Camera text on the subject is very good.

 

Please be sure you're not paying Leica prices for a fake Leica from Russia.

[ronald_moravec1]

Old screw mount camera are generally in need of repair. Shutters have pin holes too small to be seen as rubber deteriorates with age. The RF mirrors go bad. I have a 11c and 111f with a ton of money in them. Still they are nice if maintained but you really don`t know what you are buying.

 

Get and 50 mm F2 Summitar or a CV 50 2.5 or 50 1.5 which will be large on the camera, but will function perfectly. CV lenses are generally better than old Leica glass unless you want the old type pics. Uncoated optics give flat low contrst pics, nice for some things, but you will be disappointed if you want a modern higher contrast pic. Old Leica lenses are usually foggy inside and may or may not clean up with service. You also need the proper lens shades with them.

 

I really don`t recomment these to save money. Nice to use an d have for other reasons, but not to save money.

[carbon_dragon]

As John said, there are a LOT of fakes from Russia that are very apparent to anyone who's used real Leicas but which look like Leicas from a distance. Buy from reputable sellers if you can and do some studying on eBay of the fakes and the real thing if you can.

 

The Voigtlanders are good choices for lenses (but some are better than others). The 50 Summitar is a good vintage lens, as are various Canon and Nikons. The 50/3.5 Elmar is a classic, but is often fogged or scratched. Use a lens hood. Russian lenses have highly variable quality, some good and some very bad. Post a picture when you get it.

[mark_hahn]

anyone want to post some new examples from the CV 50 2.5?

[kevin h. y. lui.]

Thank you all! The ordered Leica's shutter curtain is same as John's description. I won't worry now. I don't think the seller is selling a fake Leica to me because I did check the camera and the seller is well known is the 2nd-hand camera market.

 

The seller also give me an offer that if I am not satisfy with the Elmar, he allows me to add some money to change the lens, which is Summitar f/2 within a short period. Meanwhile, I notice there is a lens called Summar which also having 50mm and f/2. The seller don't recommend this lens and said t is the worst lens of Leica. Is that true? How bad is it?

 

BTW, What is "CV 50 2.5" ?

[john_shriver]

The Summar is Leica's first 50mm f/2 lens, from the 1930's. Technically, it's not a great lens. It has a unique look, but it's not a general purpose lens by today's standards. Heavy light falloff at wide apertures, very soft and low-contrast wide open, swirly out-of-focus areas (Bokeh). Mostly useful for flattering portraits.

 

The Summitar is a much better behaved lens.

 

CV is Cosina Voigtlander. Cosina is a Japanese camera company that makes Leica-compatible lenses and cameras, and sells them under the Voigtlander brand name (which they bought). The Cosina folks have thrived as a camera and lens maker (often for other companies) by being extremely smart about value engineering. They design a really good lens, and then see how they can cheapen it without badly compromising the performance.

[james_elwing]

When a curtain has been replaced, but not by Leitz/Leica, the fabric ends & folds are often a bit rough, but seem to work OK on any I have had, and of course you end up with a newer curtain, so perhaps a better projected life span. Rubber as on shutters doesn't very like high or low temperatures, probably also high humidity, but still I am often surprised at how good very old shutters can be.

 

The Summitar is more modern than the Summar, which preceeded it. I am sure you aren't buying an old Leica to get modern high resolution images, so get a good copy with a serial no. appropriate to the camera age. 3B or earlier, Summar, 3C , Summitar, 3F Summicron.

Remember you can get f1.5 Xenon (pre & post war), or Summarit from 1947 (?)

 

Remember a slightly grubby, but not heavily scratched, f2 lens can have its front lens polished at time of cleaning at reasonable price, although others may know just how available this process still is.

[02Pete]

Kevin, if you are looking for a relatively fast 50mm LTM lens with a good reputation for optical quality at a reasonable price, you might try to find a Canon 50mm f/1.8 LTM lens.

[tien_le]

The Canon 50/1.8 is the excellent lens for LTM. The Canon Serenar 50/1.9 collapsible is also excellent and in my own experience is sharper than Summitar.

[tien_le]

The Canon 50/1.8 is the excellent lens for LTM. The Canon Serenar 50/1.9 collapsible is also excellent and in my

own experience is sharper than Summitar.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2160/2219855528_aaf458775d_b.jpg

[tien_le]

The Canon 50/1.8 is the excellent lens for LTM. The Canon Serenar 50/1.9 collapsible is also excellent and in my

own experience is sharper than Summitar.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2160/2219855528_aaf458775d_b.jpg

 

For a new user for LTM, you won't save money from buying a pre-war leica. I recommend the IIIF red dial. You have

better chance of having a properly functioning camera. With pre-war, not only the shutter may be deteriorated, silver

coating of the viewfinder could be problem too.

[kevin h. y. lui.]

Thank you all!

I just asked the seller whether I can change the lens. He said it's fine but still want me to try the Elmar first (He said if I have tried the Elmar, I won't need the Summitar) . The Summicorn is rather expensive for me ( and the Summarit too!). I think I will try it later. What I can afford now is either a Summar or Summitar. Is there any photo samples of these 2 lenses?

 

I just checked the Xenon f/1.5. It seems it is rare in the market and I believe it must be very expensive. Is it the one that similar to the one in Kodak Retina IIIc (or IIc) ? Contrast with other Leica f/1.5 lenses, which is much better?

 

I have a Canon 1.8/50 with FD-chrome mount. It is a very good quality lens. However, I won't buy the LTM version since I own one already.

[kurt_evers]

Examples of images made with <a href="http://www.flickr.com/groups/86731438@N00/pool/tags/LeicaSummar50mmf2.0LTM">the Summar lens here.</a> <p> Personally, I think it's a wonderful lens. Not something you'd use to make modern, commercial-looking images, but it has a special dreamy 3-d character that is very unique.

[kurt_evers]

More Summar images <a href="http://www.flickr.com/groups/326929@N24/">here.</a>

[kevin h. y. lui.]

Thanks, Kurt,

The Summar's result is unique when contrast with others. I agree that the softness at f/2 and the colour is completely different from Summitar or other. But I do notice that the darken area is darkened and without details inside.

[anthony_brookes5]

IMHO It is not true to say that most old Thread Mount Leicas are in need of repair. In my experience, and I have had many and still own 5, very little is likely to be wrong and certainly faulty curtains is very rare. The best thread mount lens without exception is the Summar but you must get a good one as the front element is a little soft and must not be cleaned by an amateur. There are a few thread mount Summicrons but I don't personally think they are much better than a good Summar.They are not as pin sharp as modern contrasty Summicrons.

[mark_hahn]

If you are on a super budget, the Russian Elmar copy (Industar-22) is fantastic coated lens that goes for ~$25 dollars shipped. I highly recommend this lens. Photos taken with it get universal praise from my Leica and Canon L-snob shooters. A good coated I-22 might be better than a uncoated Elmar.

 

For 50/2, the Jupiter-8 is a charming and decent lens... no Summicron for sure, but probably much *better* (to most people) than a Summar.

 

Both these lenses will look good on your camera and take good photos. The pair will probably only cost $75, so you get your Elmar sharp lens and a charming/romantic fast lens for available light.

 

...then when you have and extra $500 you can add a Summicron down the road. :)

[john fleshin]

James, who polishes lens elements? Any idea of cost?

 

I have more than a few SM Leicas, and almost all of them needed a CLA, fortunately, after a few disasters and

near disasters, I found an old friend who serviced only SM Leicas, and he was quite reasonable.

 

There seem to be quite a few people who are reasonable, but some just dip the works in a solvent and pass it

back, good for 6 months if you are lucky. If there is any stiffness in the advance, stop and get it serviced, I

have been advised it is easy to shread a shutter.

 

That said, repairs seem to be simple and service reasonable. A good guy will clean it, adjust the shutter and

give you a graph of the shutter speeds. I am not too sure I trust the top speeds in general.

 

Al also told me that though the original shutters were sewn, he super glued the ends where they were folded over

on the replacements, a standard practice, so a sign the shutter may have been replaced.

 

I gave him some parts, and I think he still had a few original curtains when he closed up shop.

 

He had a source for the mirrors in the RF as well. All stuff a good repairman should know.

 

When at Leica in Germany, I was told they no longer serviced SM''s, but would ship them to a former technician,

and he would rebuild your camera, and then tell you the price. I understand it was excellent but pricy.

[kevin h. y. lui.]

i am seriously thinking...whether I should change from the Elmar to Summar or Summarit. The Summar and Summarit sounds perfect while the Elmar stand for the quality of the standard of Leica.

 

So...should I change the lens?

[Troll]

I've been shooting Leicas for over 50 years -- my favorite lens is still the ELMAR. (I'd keep it.)

[paul_neuthaler]

Elmar, Summar, Summarit, Summicron -- have them all. Just great to shoot with; all have kind of individual looks; all have that

Leica made-to-last-forever feel. Enjoy any or all of them. My favorites are the Summar & Summicron.