D300 or D3

[cecelia_spitznas]

I have a D70 which I only recently learned. I am not good enough to take pics that don't need

cropping and the pixel count with the D70 is too low to crop and sell on ISP in most cases.

Cropping improves my composition dramatically though. I bought an SB800 to brightening things

up but its heavy and awkward. I've not patience for alot of post-processing and would rather just

take good shots, crop and move on. The D70 tends to underexpose and there's alot of noise in the

shadows.

 

DH has a D300 but does wildlife photos and is itching for a D3. He could give me his D300 and get

a D3 or or I could get a D3 and he could get a D3 and the D300 could be a backup. The cost is not

such a big deal especially if I'll like the D3 forever but such a large difference in price is a concern

if I'll be in way over my head. The idea of taking photos indoors without more light is a very

appealing consideration with the D3 especially for dog shows as well as my own artwork which I

don't want to expose to flash.

 

Right now I don't like the limited number of focus zones on Mr D70 and its a pain to focus and

exposure lock and then move.

 

I've got the kit lens that came with the D70, a borrowed Tamron Zoom that's on permanent loan but

not too great and my trusty 50 mm 1.4. My husband has a sick number of lenses all f2.8 but he's

not big on sharing and most are too heavy for me anyway except I do love his 105mm with the VR.

I might get the 85 mm everyone raves about.

 

My favorite things to shoot are flowers, farms, and horses, doggies and dog shows...

 

Will the D3 be too much?

[michaelging]

If you skill and talent are growing , then I do not think buying a camera with more features will be too much for you. I will be buying a D3 over the D300,because the quality of the end product is very important to me , more than saving the difference in price between the 2 cameras.I have many film Nikkor AI Lenses, both AF and manual focus , that would work better for me with a D3 than the crop factor'd D300.

[eric_arnold]

well, that all depends.

i'd take a long hard look at how you will be using the cameras. if you plan on using long telephoto lenses, the DX 1.5 factor is a big reason to get a D300, since a 300mm lens becomes 450mm, etc, as is the case with Mr D70.

 

if, on the other hand, you plan on shooting wide angle or in extreme low-light, a D3 is clearly superior.

 

also if you get a D3, you wont be able to use the 18-70 kit lens at full-rez, which means another big chunk o' cash for a FF lens like the 14-24.

 

thom hogan has (much) more to say about this: http://www.bythom.com/d3ord300.htm

 

in general, if money is no object, tho', i'd go for the D3. coming from a D70, it wont be completely alien, and though there will be a learning curve, you will have room to grow into it. if its too much, you can always downsize and buy more glass with the difference.

[Mike D]

The D3 is a lot larger than the D300. Make sure you get your hands on both of them first to make sure either will work. Also, I bought a D2X a few years ago for $5,000. It now goes for $1,500 in some places. The D3 will surely be replaced in a few years by something much better. Losing some value on a D300 is a lot easier to handle. Both are excellent cameras, today.

[bruce_margolis]

"Will the D3 be too much?"

 

I don't think so but it is different than the D300. The best benefit of the D3 is the additional stop you pick up with higher ISO.

 

However, It is larger which, for some, is a drawback. Also, it doesn't have the crop factor so lenses will have a different effect.

 

If you are comfortable with the size of the D3, it is an excellent choice. If it's too big, go with the D300. Neither is a bad choice and the lenses will take care of themselves.

[Jerry_]

If you think adding a SB-800 speedlight is "heavy," wait until you use a D3 body for 3 or 4 hours.

 

 

 

If you want something light with a few "like Photoshop" features in the camera, you might consider looking over a Nikon D80 body.

[nolan_ross]

The D3 or the D300 outfit is not going to be light.

[samoksner]

The D3 is serious overkill, I would argue the D300 is too. Work on your skills with the camera you have and then upgrade, but i think that instead of working on composition, you're looking for the camera to improve your pictures, which it certainly won't.

 

If you think an SB-800 wait until you feel the magnesium body of the D300 and D3, both are very heavy cameras and are very complicated cameras that are oriented towards full time professionals and very serious amateurs.

 

I would say, in this case, if you're unsure, it's a sign that you don't really need it!

[mike_sea]

I can't seem to get out of my head your issue of weight and awkwardness.

 

"SB800 to brightening things up but its heavy and awkward"

 

The D70 is only 600 grams...this compares to the D300 at 825g and the D3 at 1125g

 

If you are after and easy to carry and non awkward camera doing away with an awesome flash in the D800 is not my suggestion. If you just want the best then you won't get any better then the D3 untill the D3x (D4) 24 Mega Pixel camera is released.

 

I was lucky enough to be the first to take a D3 down to Antarctica with thanks to Nikon Australia and I have never used anything like it.

 

It will be interesting to see if nikon bleed their loyal high end users dry by releasing an 18 meg camera,

 

 

Just my thoughts

 

 

Mike Sea

 

 

 

Just my thoughts.

[mharris]

I went with two D300s. The D3 has stuff I really don't need and the "back-up" body thing is very important to me. I've been caught during "breaking news" with a digital body in the shop. Luckily an old Nikon F3 did what I needed.

[ShunCheung]

For flowers, farms, horses and dogs, a D3 seems to be an overkill. Let your significant other get the D3 and take over the D300. IMO you are better off spending the price difference on lenses and accessories.

[elliot1]

"I am not good enough to take pics that don't need cropping"

 

You need the right lens or lenses to avoid cropping regardless of the camera body you are using. It sounds like you need a lens with a stronger zoom so you can compose correctly in the first place. You also need to practice more by taking a lot more pictures.

 

"The D70 tends to underexpose and there's alot of noise in the shadows."

 

You can easily correct underexposure by using your exposure compensation. Much of the noise issues in the shadows will disappear when you get the exposure right. Simple noise reduction programs can also help.

 

"I bought an SB800 to brightening things up but its heavy and awkward."

 

Exchange it for an SB-400. The SB-400 is lightweight and very capable. There are a couple of disadvantages (less power/flash range, no swivel head) but you will love the convenience.

 

"The D70 tends to underexpose and there's alot of noise in the shadows."

 

A new camera is in order (along with a new lens or two), but rather than a D300 or D3, I suggest a D60. It solves your megapixel issue, weight issue and IQ issue. I have a D40 and it is a surprisingly capable camera. I think the D60 is far improved (based on the specifications and comments I have read). You may be pleasantly surprised with it. My D40 is a surprisingly good performer and really fantastic in low light conditions.

 

"The idea of taking photos indoors without more light is a very appealing consideration with the D3..."

 

Without the right lens, there is not a tremendous advantage. You will still need an additional lens or two (like the 70-200 f2.8 which is a large, heavy lens). That combined with a heavy body may be too much for you. If you are open to using a tripod or monopod, the significance of the weight problem may lessen.

 

"Will the D3 be too much?"

 

Based on your lack of 'patience' in certain areas of photography as you mentioned, I would say yes. Although it can be used fully automatically, it may appear complicated to you and to get the most from it likely requires an experienced photographer to get the most out of it.

 

My suggestion - go and handle a D300, D3 and D60. Compare the results of the sample pictures you take. You decision may be easier (and perhaps obvious) once you handle and perhaps use the cameras a little.

 

Good luck!

[ronald_moravec1]

You can laugh and probably will, but the D40/60 cameras take really nice pictures and are in the size range as the D70. My D40 because of the low MP count ,has better low light performance than my D200. It is a remarkable camera. The new D60 should be checked, more MP, but it has a newer and maybe better processor to overcome the noise of more MP.

 

If you can get away from zoom lenses, then D80 plus AF primes work well.

You can try some on the D70 right away. Primes are faster and lighter allowing lower ISO settings. Plus they can be used on a D300 or D3 if you go in that direction.

 

Found light is generally bad for photography. It is normally too contrasty, and from the wrong direction and color temp and spectrum output of sources can be problems , specially if they use mixed sources. No camera will solve this for you.

 

Shadows are noisy on all cameras to one degree or another. D -lighting available on D300 and maybe D3 may help some to brighten it.

 

A D3 is a seriously heavy and large camera. It gets very good high ISO performance in part due to the relativeIy low density of MP. It is only 12 or so on a bigger sensor plus newer processor. That is why is works well at high ISO just like my D40 does at 6 MP on the smaller sensor. For prints to 8x10, 6 MP is all that is required.

[tholte]

A D3 would be serious overkill for what you are trying to do. For the price of a D3 you could get a D300 and three pro grade lenses. For shooting your artwork, get a good tripod.

[ozmen]

A famous Turkish photographer, Ara Guler says that "he can take a photo with a sewing machine" just to protest the machine fetishism.

D3 or D300, it does not matter too much. Learn the specifications of the machine that you use, use it efficiently.

[John Crowe]

I have to agree with Sam. It sounds like the D3 and even D300 are beyond your skills at the moment. As others have mentioned you better get out to some stores and handle these cameras too.

 

 

Buying the best camera Nikon makes is not necessarily going to translate into making great images, that depends on you. Serious cropping from even the D3 and D300 could be problematic.

 

 

By the way, and perhaps excuse my ignorance, but who the heck is DH?

[cherubinphotography]

I have to agree with Ozmen. I own a D300. Before that I had a D40. Before that, I used a point and shoot. I've had shows and sold images from all three cameras.

 

I am envious though. The D3 is not inexpensive....

[scott_warn]

I would suggest that you actually take the time to find a store that has the D3 in stock and actually go out and hold one. Several times in your post you expressed concerns about weight and the D3 is a rather heavy camera. I suspect that after holding a D3 you'll drop that idea like a hot potatoe. You may also find the D300 is a bit heavier than you would prefer so you should also try holding that camera as well.

 

Now, about the D300. First, the AF is absolutely incredible compared to the D70. So, you'll see a huge improvement in that area compared to your D70. In fact, in some ways I think the AF in the D300 is actually superior to that in the D3, mainly because it covers a much wider area of the frame. You'll also find that hte higher resolution of the D300 will permit a bit more freedom for cropping. However, you will have a new camera that you will have to spend time learning how to use and the D300 doesn't offer any Scene Modes to help you out. It also offers so many adjustments that it's fairly easy to tie the settings into a gordian knot.

 

Specifically, settings to avoid.

 

Number one is the AF tracking with Lock ON. Nikon really should have called this the AF DELAY setting because that is what it actually does, it DELAYS the camera from acquiring focus on any subject at a distance different than what the lens is set to. So, if someone steps in front of your, it won't immediately snap the focus to the back of their head. However, it will also cause the camera to pause anytime you want to focus on a new subject. So, leave it OFF unless your shooting a football game from the stands or something similar. Otherwise you'll be wondering why the camera won't focus.

 

Second setting to avoid is the Active D-Lighting. This scheme acts to compress the tonal response in deep shadows and highlights. In some cases it can lift shadow detail by at least 2 stops and along with those lighter shadow tones you bring up NOISE. So, if you turn it on and find that you have noisy shadows, that's just an effect of the Active D-Lighting. So either learn how to properly deal with dark shadows or learn to accept the noise that the D-Lighting will cause.

 

Third is high ISO Noise Reduction. Keep it OFF or set to Low because any higher setting is just too aggressive and you'll lose a LOT of image sharpness. I keep it off and now apply any Noise Reduction during Post in NX where a much finer degree of control is possible.

 

Fourth is the Sharpening setting. Don't go any higher than 3 or you will see an increase in noise. The D300 will produce a superb 16 x 24 inch print with the sharpening set to 3 so going any higher is pretty pointless.

 

Finally, about Pixel Peeping. 100% peeps from the D300 are 43% LARGER than a 100% peep from your D70. Which means that they WILL LOOK A BIT SOFTER. Get used to it and buy a printer so you can actually see how well the D300 performs regardless of that "softness" that you see in a peep. What you don't want to do is start turning up the sharpening or you'll then start complaining about noisy images. BTW, that larger image also means that noise WILL become more visible in a 100% peep. Ignore it, on a real print the D300 is stunning in regards to noise even at ISO 1600. I can produce 4x6 inch prints from ISO 6400 images that are nearly free of any noise. At ISO 1600 you have to be a bit hyper critical to complain about the noise in an 11x17 inch print.

 

Now for my advice. If you are relying on the Scene Modes in the D70 then the D300 won't be a good choice because it doesn't offer these "crutches". In that case waiting for hte D90 may be a better choice. However, if your willing to take the time to learn how to use the D300 properly, it is an incredible tool.

 

BTW, the Picture Control that I found that I like best is the D2x Mode 1, which I had to download from Nikon. However, some recent posts indicate that the D300's now being produced come with the D2x Picture Controls pre-loaded. So, if you buy a D300 and it has the D2x Picture Controls pre0loaded, the first thing you should do is set your new camera to the D2x mode 1 and see how your images look to you. Frankly, I found the default Standard Picture Control to have too much saturation for my taste and thought that it produced over saturated images. As for the Vibrant Picture Control, it's a good choice if you want to make photographic Cartoons, the saturation is way way over the top. But, tastes vary, so my point is that you should experiment with the various Picture Controls and find the one that most fits what you want.

[cecelia_spitznas]

Thank you very much for the detailed replies. Scott in particular that was very good

information about pixel peeping.

 

I've used my husband's (DH=dear husband) 70-200 on my D70 for 2 hours and I get

to a point where I just have to stop because my hand aches. I would hope over time

I would get some muscles. But the issue is holding up the heavy unbalanced lens. I

don't know that I'd have a problem so much with a camera unless it had that big

honking lens on it. This doesn't happen with the 50 or 105 mm. Also I use the

SB800 on a bracket which adds to the weight when I use it-and there are places you

just can't use flash (like its not good to use it at indoor dog shows because it may

freak out the doggies).

 

Maybe I was being overly critical of my abilities. I have been working hard to learn

the D70-not using scene modes just aperture setting and there are weeks where I'm

taking hundreds of pics per day. What I find with the dogs in particular (jack russells

who think I can't see them when I have the camera blocking my face) is extraneous

things end up in my shots or their eyes end up just slightly out of place and a crop

would help alot. Its not like I can just put them where I want them.

 

It would also be good to put the focus zone someplace that makes more sense-why

are the focus zones on the D70 in the places they are when all the cropping guides

in the world and painters and designers put the center of interest other places? That

is the main appeal of the D300 (that and the dust removal and just nicer pictures). It

would be nice to have more space to work with and to be able to blow things up

more and not lose the sharpness. I know there's things that can be done with the

clone stamp but I'd rather be able to crop some and have the main subject be

bigger.

 

Also overall I'm interested in making much bigger images. I do pastels and it is very

hard to work small in pastel so I'd like reference photos that are big even if they're

never printed, just to show on my screen.

 

Patience isn't the issue. I work 60+ hours a week.

[tri-x1]

The D3 is too much for what you want to do. IMO it is very difficult to justify a D3 unless you are a full-time professional photographer and even then the D300 would suffice in most situations..

[joseph_wisniewski]

I would have to disagree with the folks who said D300 is "overkill". You shoot dog shows, D300 AF is going to simply amaze you the first time you use it for agility. I can't believe someone actually recommended D40/D60 class cameras. If you're not pleased with D70 focusing, D40 is a step backwards.

 

I like a D2X with 85mm f1.4 or D3 with 135mm f2.0 for agility, and the 70-200mm f2.8 VR for the ring. Not that the VR will mean anything, because of the shutter speeds needed, but it's the right range of focal lengths and reasonably fast.

 

And for flowers, live view is the handiest thing since sliced bread. Do you shoot them indoors or outdoors? I'm with the folks who said D300 and a few pro lenses.

 

You will also find that a big flash like an SB-800 has a way of making a camera feel a lot heavier and more awkward. It's definitely not just in proportion to its weight. It's putting the weight at a distance to the camera. Like how heavy something is when you hold it at arm's length.

[niccoury]

what about a D200. they're about $1100 new right now.

 

It sounds like you need to learn to shoot before you buy a new camera.

[toddcwilson]

It sounds like you need to get your head around proper flash technique. You can learn to use flash to get the light you need, without the exposure looking like you used flash at all.

 

Also, as mentioned above, if bulk and weight are a concern the you are in for a real surprise with the D3, the D300 isn't really light either.

[nolan_ross]

I think your photography is much better than you let on. Cropping is just normal post processing work. Catching an animal with their ears up is always a problem and can sometimes be aided with a slap on the behind for a horse or a clicking noise for a dog etc, etc. A camera with more megapixels so that you could make larger pictures.. A better viewfinder would also help with composing and being able to identify distracting items in your background. I am thinking the D60 or D80 because they are lighter and are a 10mp model. I would use lighter zoom lenses and primes.. The lighter zooms are excellent lenses and only about 1 stop slower then the heavy pro models. Possibly the SB600 or even the SB400 might work. I personally would be fine with the sb400 for fill flash shots. I think I am going to purchase one actually. Nice and light in the camera bag. Take the sb800 for purposes that would call for more flash. A better light camera, evalualte your gear and try not to carry heavy items that are not needed. Use two camera bags with one bag to stay in the trunk or even purchase a rolling camera bag.

[Two23]

The D300 is fairly large and the D3 is comparatively huge. The perfect camera for what you want will likely be the D90, the replacement for the D80. It should be released before the end of August, perhaps in June yet. It will likely have the same sensor as the D300, only in a more compact package. I see your two biggest lacks as (1) experience (2) lenses. You mentioned you don't know how to compose/frame photo very well etc. Are you looking for a magic camera that all you have to do is push a button and it will do everything? Doesn't exist. I would bet money that photos you take with a D300 will look exactly like the ones you take with a D70.

 

Lenses are the most important thing for what you are doing. It doesn't sound like you have the ones you need. And shame on your husband for not letting you use whatever he has! There are some lighter lenses that you should be looking at. For photos in indoor light but no flash, I'd suggest the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8. Put a Sigma 50-150mm f2.8 with it and you have some serious glass that is capable and lightweight. I would not buy single focal lenses for what you are doing because zooms are so much more flexible, but you might consider one such as soon to be released Sigma 50mm f1.4 as a last resort. You will not hear me "rave" about the 85mm lens--it's my worst one and is for sale. I think these kinds of lenses are now largely obsolete given the quality of the newer fast zooms. You have used the 105mm VR and liked it, so it seems to me that's obviously a better choice anyway. It would be a logical choice for flower photos too. As for flash, I find that as I get more & more experienced, I've come to use it more and more too. It is flash that gives photos that professional touch more than anything else.

 

For you I recommend some fast light zooms, such as Tamron 70-50mm f2.8 and Sigma 50-150mm f2.8, maybe a Sigma 30mm f1.4 or 50mm f1.4, and an SB-800. For outdoor shooting, a 70-300mm VR would give you lots of reach in a lightweight package. I think a D3 would be thousands of dollars wasted on a camera you would end up not liking because it was too heavy. A D300 would work for you, but I think a D90, when it comes out, would be even better because it will be lighter in your hands. The D90 may have the dust removal, but I haven't heard from anyone that this is all that useful. I don't see either camera as making nearly as much difference as the lenses though.

 

 

Kent in SD