Help! What am I doing wrong with my flash??? Nikon SB-800

[angelica_virgen]

I don't understand. I bought new batteries, (same batteries I use all the

time...lithium batteries), went to my photo shoot and about 10 minutes into the

shoot (about 30 pics), my flash isn't recharging fast enough anymore. I had to

take my speedlight off and use the built in camera on my nikon, which of course

didn't give me the same results I would have wanted! It would take one or two

pics with the speedlight and then it'd stop working. I've done other shoots

where I've lasted a couple of hours, even up to four hours and my flash is fine.

After about 500 pics i know it heats up too much and I have to let it rest.

What could have happened?? I don't understand. I was so frustrated! And since

I'm barely working myself up and I'm slowly buying myself equipment, I don't

have a second flash.

[jake_holt]

My experience when using lithiums was that they would heat up quickly and then croak -

until they cooled. My experience with rechargables has been much better - also, an external

battery pack will help immensely, as it will take the strain off the batteries in the flash and

allow the flash to recycle much faster.

[picturesque]

Yes, lithiums get very hot very fast. I'd get some high capacity, rechargeable NiMH batteries and a good intelligent charger.

[Matt Laur]

I agree with Jake. Try some 2700 mAH Nickle-metal-hydride rechargeables. Far easier on your wallet than the Li batteries. My recharge in very short order, and seem to go forever in my SB-800.

[rob_piontek]

I don't know about lithiums, but definitely most people are using rechargeable NiMH in flashes. I think they have the best recycle times. Definitely way better than alkaline.

[joseph_wisniewski]

Three guesses. First, you don't know they're the "same batteries" you've used before. They could be batteries from any number of sources, with your "comfortable" brand's sticker pasted on. Or the supplier may have made a change to the batteries that doesn't interfere with their "target market" of iPod users, but plays havoc with their use in an SB-800.

 

The way to avoid frustration is to use batteries with the capability you need. There's no real way to "test" lithium batteries without "using them up". Rechargeables are a bit easier. A good LCD readout LaCrosse or Maha charger can do an analysis where it charges, discharges, and recharges your batteries so you can see if they have the proper quantity of power (mA-H) inside for a large number of flashes, and if they can deliver it with sufficent flow (mA) to cycle in a reasonable time.

 

And the second guess is that your flash may actually be damaged. You say you've actually overheated your flash before. That does cumulative damage, each time you overheat the flash, the components get just a little weaker. You actually have to operate the way Nikon suggests (X mumber of high power flashes in 10 minutes) to keep it below the temperature that degrades the flash over time.

 

Third guess, you've got dirty contacts, either in the flash (which is a pain, because they're deep down inside and hard to clean) or on the batteries. Try cleaning the contacts with methanol and a swab. Do not use an eraser.

[angelica_virgen]

You guys are awesome! Thank you so much! The same thing happened at my first wedding! It started acting up right before the ceremony! The good thing was that I had another photographer helping me out. First time that happened I thought it was the flash and I returned it and got another one. So the one that I used yesterday is the second time I use it and the first time it did this to me, so I thought to myself, "it can't be the flash then". I'm glad I asked or else I might have done some major damage to my flash. Once again, thank you so much!

[steve_c.5]

Okay, here is some advice I learned from a LOT of low-light and reception work. I'm assuming you're talking about indoor and low-light work...

 

1) In low light, when your flash is on TTL mode, it's going to try to fire the flash at full power every time, because it senses a lack of available light (which there is). Some flashes are more intelligent about how they handle low light than others, but the SB-800 is a really good unit. There are other ways to manage your flash output and battery consumption...

 

2) Nickel-metal hydride batteries (rechargeable). You should have several sets of these, and recharge them all thoroughly before every shoot. They lose quite a bit of charge just sitting around. Keep them grouped in sets of 4 (if your flash uses 4 at a time). I use a sharpie to mark the sets "A", "B", "C", etc. and have them in neat plastic battery holder boxes I got online. They need to be charged and used in groups, so they all stay about the same level and don't get mixed in with depleted ones. You'll need a couple of good chargers to make the recharge work go faster.

 

3) An external battery pack is often very useful for when you're doing a lot of fast-action shots and need the flash to pop, pop, pop and recycle quickly. You can get them to mount on the bottom of your camera and connect directly to the flash. Quantum makes nice ones. I use one for bouquet tosses where you're pop-pop-popping, or for that fast "run of the gauntlet" bird seed tossing when the couple heads for the car. Most flashes without external power can't keep up and recycle fast enough by themselves, even on 1/8 power. These units use a flyback transformer and capacitors (electronic stuff) to keep the flash juiced up quickly.

 

4) Dragging the shutter is another technique that uses slower shutter speeds to let in the ambient lighting, while you pop the flash at 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, or 1/2 power, depending on distance to subject. Your ISO will typically be anywhere from 400-2000, depending on how dim it is. The higher the ISO you set, the faster your shutter speed can be set. I do this work with manual mode so I can control it. Done properly, you can shoot in very dark or outdoor settings with low flash output, and your batteries will last much longer. So will your flash. Your indoor shots will look better and more natural too.

 

5) I like the Gary Fong Lightsphere for this work, while others here like the reflector cards, bulky camera brackets, and other flash diffusers/reflectors. Experiment and use what works best for you.

[angelica_virgen]

Very good pointers Steve, thank you very much. I'm pretty new at using speedlights, so I want to learn as much as I can about them. Didn't really know much about the batteries either. I spent about $100.00 on batteries on the first wedding I shot and still couldn't use my flash unit. Had to shoot the majority of the pictures with natural light on with the built-in flash. But then I spent HOURS on photoshop trying to fix the pictures as best as I could...the night pictures at least. And like I said, thank goodness for my backup photographer!

[wedding-photography-denver]

I would use the little extra battery holder that came with it.

 

Using NiMH 2700's is good and I do that all the time. I do keep half a dozen or so of the lithium batteries in my bag too, but I have not used them much so never noticed them heat up and stop working.

 

One thing you may be missing is the setup BEFORE you switch your flash on. I would consider this first; As the light drops, adjust you camera's SS, Aperture and ISO to be a couple stop below the ambient light levels (approx.) This will mean your flash has much less work to do to properly expose your subjects.

 

Play with that around your house after dark. Make it work for you and you will be in much better shape for the next time.

[wedding-photography-denver]

BTW, another quick and dirty trick for using flash in doors in low light is to try this (caveat: this is not the traditional method and is flawed in that you don't keep complete control over every exposure, but hey, it works pretty well in general);

 

 

Set you camera to matrix metering> Av> Highest ISO you are ok with using> set - 2 stops EC on the camera > set -1/3 on your flash. I would add to that the need for some diffuser or other and bouncing your flash when possible.

 

Play with that for a while (at home first to get comfortable).

 

I had an assistant use this method with the fong dong for one wedding and the results were pretty good. Not something for shooting outdoors in sunlight, but works well in dimly lit receptions where the lighting is reasonably/halfway consistent.

[joseph_wisniewski]

"Try some 2700 mAH Nickle-metal-hydride rechargeables"

 

Better yet, try some Sanyo eneloop batteries. I used to use the regular Sanyo 2700mA-H rechargeables, and the eneloops made an instant convert of me. They're only 2100mA-H, so, on paper, they're not as good as the regular 2700mA-H. But the SB-800 isn't paper: it's plastic and metal and little electronic components. ;)

 

The eneloop are cool. That's not like in "hey, man, they're cool", it's a physical coolness. The regular 2700mA-H Sanyos get hot when charged at 1000mA, and they also get pretty warm in hard use. That's because of "internal resistance", when the charger is shoving current into them, they turn some of it to heat (which is OK, because the charger will just shove in more current until they're full). When you use them, they turn part of the current coming out of the batteries into heat, and that's bad, because the flash runs on electricity, not heat.

 

End result, the 2100mA-H eneloops deliver as many flashes as the regular 2700mA-H Sanyos, they stay cooler doing it, and their recycle times are better.

 

Angelica, seriously, $100 in batteries?

 

That will get you 12 sets of four eneloops. 140 full power shots per fully charged set, or about 1500 shots ;)

 

I have three LaCrosse BC-900 chargers, those are about $35 each.

 

But you consider that's 3 chargers and 12 four packs of batteries across how many weddings?

[frank_skomial]

"1) In low light, when your flash is on TTL mode, it's going to try to fire the flash at full power every time, because it senses a lack of available light (which there is)." - wrong.

 

Are you talking here about SB-800 ?. What camera ? What modern Nikon DSLR camera senses is an ambient light level that has no direct relation for the flash light output needed.

 

The camera, and not flash determins required amount of light during pre-flash, and even total darkness is not a determinant for flash to fire "at full power". Low light would determine ambient lighting needed, but not for the flash.

 

There may be cirumstances when SB-800 requires full power, but that is not "every time".

 

You need to understand how your camera/flash combo work together.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

Angelica

 

I too, used to use lithiums, with much succes. However, they are designed to shut down when overheated. Once they cool off, they're good to go again. Personally, I'd much rather overheat my batt's, than fry my SB-800. Lately, I've been using Duracell 2650 rechargeable NiMH's, and they've been working out quite well. Also, the Sony Eneloops are quite good and reliable. In th epast, I found that when I overheated my lithiums, I was shooting much too quickly. Don't use the "superfast" battery chargers, they drastically reduce the life of your batteries. I do however, carry a few sets of lithiums as back-ups.

 

Russ

[russ_konrad]

<b>"1) In low light, when your flash is on TTL mode, it's going to try to fire the flash at full power every time, because it senses a lack of available light (which there is)." - wrong.

<p>

Are you talking here about SB-800 ?. What camera ? What modern Nikon DSLR camera senses is an ambient light level that has no direct relation for the flash light output needed.

<p>

The camera, and not flash determins required amount of light during pre-flash, and even total darkness is not a determinant for flash to fire "at full power". Low light would determine ambient lighting needed, but not for the flash.

<p>

There may be cirumstances when SB-800 requires full power, but that is not "every time".

<p>

You need to understand how your camera/flash combo work together."</b>

<p>

Steve C. shoots a Sony DSLR.

<p>

It probably explains why he was totally off base with his TTL comments about the SB800.

[acbeddoe]

I have found that, while rechargeable NiMHs are good, rechargeable alkalines are better for two reasons:<br>

1 - they hold their charge better while not being used, and<br>

2 - they are 1.5V, NiMHs are 1.2V; the alkalines recycle the flash faster.

[steve_c.5]

FYI for the Nikonians out there, my experience with the D1x and D100 with SB-800 has been that in low light, the camera tells the flash to fire full power in TTL and dTTL mode. This may be different with CLS compatible models in iTTL mode, but she did not specify what camera she's using in her post. And, as you all should know, light levels vary everywhere all the time, so flash output on TTL mode will vary with a number of factors. It has nothing to do with the fact that I shoot the Sony DSLRs. Why ya gotta be such a snob, Russ? I don't go jumpin' all over you...be nice!

 

My point is that by manually controlling the camera and flash, you can better accomplish shutter drag and preserve battery life and flash output, and get better results.

 

That may be too hard for some to accomplish, though, and they just set the camera on "P" for Professional and leave everything up to the camera/flash.

[russ_konrad]

<b>"...This may be different with CLS compatible models in iTTL mode..."</b>

<p>

Yes - it is totally different in iTTL mode on the D70, D80, D40, D200, D300, D2x, and the D3.

<P>

The "i" stands for "intelligent TTL" and all of the above cameras use the ambient light in matrix metering mode for a balanced fill flash. This results in much lower flash power levels.

[tom_luongo1]

Flash output power for a properly exposed photo is determined by the effective distance to the subject. For subjects that are near, less flash power is needed. For subjects that are far, more flash output is needed. Bouncing the flash off a ceiling effectively increases the flash-to-subject distaince. Bouncing the flash off a high ceiling increases it even more.

 

Control of the flash output power varies. ISO and aperture both come into play. Digital cameras compatible with iTTL and dTTL both use some sort of pre-flash to calculate the correct flash output. iTTL has a reputation for being the more accurate of the two and has some fancier remote capabilities. "Old fashioned" TTL is used in compatible film cameras and the camera measures the flash directly during exposure. For all three of these systems, the SB-800 displays TTL on the rear display. The actual mode used will be whichever mode is compatible with the camera.

 

A fourth method of controlling the flash output is controlled by the flash itself. Auto Flash mode (indicated by A on the SB-800) uses a light sensor on the flash to measure flash output and turn it off when proper exposure has been reached. Auto Flash mode will tend to mis-expose if the view of the flash's light sensor is very different from the view of the lens. (i.e. when using very wide or very long lenses) To expose correctly, Auto Flash mode also requires to know the f-stop and ISO settings on the camera. With compatible cameras (i.e. most recent Nikon bodies), this is done automatically. With manual bodies, the ISO and f-stop info can be manually entered into the flash.

 

In Balanced Fill Flash mode (when TTL-BL on the rear panel) the camera system takes ambient light into account.

 

In none of the above modes will a properly functioning SB-800 try to fire the flash at full power _every_ time. (sorry Steve) If the SB-800 is firing at full power, one of the following is happening (most likely the first): subject is too far away for ISO/aperture combination or possibly the metering was fooled by an unusual subject circumstance, e.g. main subject in only a portion of the frame. There are probably other ways to fool the flash exposure too but I'm not going to make an exhausting list.

 

Steve is getting beat up a little bit over that phrase "full power every time because of low available light" (and he should) but the rest of that posting has a lot of good points in it.

 

I have no idea what an SB-800 will do with a Sony Ax00 body. With that combination, it makes a lot of sense to control shutter, aperture, and flash output manually.

 

With Nikon bodies, my preferred mode is manual shutter and aperture with usually higher ISO to control ambient light (just like Steve says, underexpose 1 or 2 stops) and I leave the flash on TTL-BL and let it decide how much to output. At higher ISO and wider apertures, it never needs full power. However, it does sometimes create issues with mixed lighting.

 

The above is a quickie Flash Photograph 1.01, but has nothing to do with your flash power woes. Even firing at full power, you should be able to get far more than 30 shots in ten minutes out of normally operating batteries.<div></div>

[steve_c.5]

Thanks, Tom for the (very) detailed response. Perhaps it's helpful for some. First, I don't think anyone would try to use an SB-800 with a Sony camera. The base mounts are incompatible, and adapters that would allow it to physically adapt will not allow dedictated operation, so it wouldn't really work. Don't know if you knew that or not, but I'm just clarifying. My experience with the SB-800 was on the D1X and D100. For the Sony, I use the compatible Sony flash which has ADI (automatic distance integration) to control flash output (that's Minolta technology carried over when Sony bought them out). Even still, on TTL, the flash tends to fire full power in very low lighting because not much light is being reflected back to the meter, and the flash is trying to illuminate the whole room. This happens because when you're bouncing (and you really should be bouncing, not blasting them with direct flash), the flash head is turned upward (I have the Lightsphere on mine). When the head is turned any way but straight ahead, the flash senses the head angle is not straight ahead, and increases the flash output to full power to better illuminate when in bounce mode (TTL). This is not always desireable, though, and you can really burn through some batteries hitting full power each time (not to mention the long recycle times). As I said, the better way to manage this is to manually control flash output, use rear curtain sync, bump up ISO, etc.

 

My initial post was speaking with a generality, but some know-it-alls out there (not you, Tom) are just waiting to jump on some minor technicality so they can get in an insult or two, because my equipment has Sony on it. In the process, they overlook the message and my simple desire to help the original poster, which I do because I'm a nice guy.

 

Maybe Russ was just feeling froggy, I don't know. It gets tiresome. I spend a lot of time helping others in this forum because I find it rewarding, but it seems the Nikon and Canon elitists can't wait to prove how smart they are and insult someone. Never mind that Nikon uses the same sensor as in my A700 (as in the D300) which they get from Sony. Never mind that two years ago, you could not buy anything from Nikon, Canon, or anyone that approaches the current A700's specs or performance for $1500, but because it has Sony on it, people look down on it. It's ridiculous. Get over yourselves, people.

 

BTW, nice cee-gar shot, Tom!

[russ_konrad]

<b>"...they overlook the message and my simple desire to help the original poster,

which I do because I'm a nice guy..."</b>

<p>

Posting incorrect information concerning a piece of equipment that you do not use helps no one - nice guy or not.

<p>

People asking technical questions on this forum are not looking for "nice guys". They are looking for technical support that will actually help them solve their particular problem.

[steve_c.5]

And likewise, Russ, I'm not looking for insults, but that's what you dished out. Instead of making a simple correction or putting a finer point on the pencil, you made it personal. I don't need it, and neither does anyone in this forum. And you know better.

 

If people aren't looking for nice guys here, I'm glad they'll be able to find you instead.

[russ_konrad]

I make it a point to not comment on equipment/issues (like Sony) that I am not familiar with.

 

Perhaps it would be better if you avoided equipment/issues that you are not familiar with so you won't be giving out incorrect advice.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

Speaking of cee-gar's...

 

Russ<div></div>

[steve_c.5]

But, Russ, commenting on my use of Sony equipment is exactly what you did, with all the authority and none of the knowledge. You've just proven your hypocrisy. At least I have used the SB-800 and Nikon gear before, and know the equipment. I still don't need the insults. Give it a rest.