Phase One should have chosen Pentax mount

[graham_mitchell]

<p>Joseph, F&H was only the contracted manufacturer of the Hy6. The Hy6 is owned by Jenoptik, and they can move manufacture to any other plant they want. F&H's troubles are not related to the Hy6 projects, and F&H's demise (if it happens) does not mean the end of the Hy6. I hope that makes sense.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<blockquote>

<p>"At some point people will stop paying the high premium for a rebadged camera,"<br>

<br />I doubt Shriro pays much for the Hasselblad "badge", since what they bought was pretty much a name and a marketing and distribution network. There's really no one to pay anything to. Even if you consider that they pay Fuji to manufacturer the body and lenses, it's still no worse than the financial relationships between P1 and Mamiya, or the mess of the High 6.<br />And, with the current rumors about Shriro buying the medium format design and production capability from Fuji, we may soon see "Hasselblad" being literally one company, with a "no middleman" advantage over P1/Mamiya and the High 6.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>They are way ahead of you.<br />All Fuji ever did was built lenses and bits of the viewfinder. The rest is done by (believe it or not - i know you tend to believe not) Hasselblad. They always did.<br />Shriro did not buy a name and a marketing network, but a manufacturer that designs and builds its own products.</p>

<p>Shriro will not have to pay much for the medium format design and production capability, since they own it from the moment they bought Hasselblad.</p>

<p>Phase One is now on a similar course Shriro steered when they acquired Imacon and merged it with Hasselblad.<br>

From that day, Hasselblad was not just "literally one company", but a company and a half. Phase One will be too.<br>

A good decision.</p>

<p>The Hy6 (where does this "High" come from? It was meant to be a hybrid camera, hence it is "Hy") could have been very good too, but the business model (paying license fees to Rollei) was not.</p>

<p> </p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<blockquote>

<p>The Hy6 is owned by Jenoptik,</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What exactly do they own? The design? The tooling? CNC setups? Specialized machines?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>and they can move manufacture to any other plant they want.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Such as? Schmid took over a fully tooled plant, pumped millions more into it, and still lost enough money to declare insolvency. Where will Jenoptik move "their" Hy6 to that can deliver cameras at a price Jenoptik is willing to pay?</p>

<p>Or, better yet, have you ever moved a complex product from one plant to another? Maybe you'll see Hy6 production start again, in 2014 or so...</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>All Fuji ever did was built lenses and bits of the viewfinder. The rest is done by (believe it or not - i know you tend to believe not) Hasselblad.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not what I believe, but what I know. I've got Blad numbers all the way back to CINven. The thing I'm most interested in is where you picked up that particular little fairy tale.</p>

<p>With 600 people, Blad designed nothing but mechanical bodies. How did they acquire the capabilities to design the most sophisticated MF body on the market while simultaneously laying off 90% of their workforce?</p>

 

[graham_mitchell]

<p>Hi Joseph, they own the design. I can't answer your other questions about machines etc.<br>

From the press release it sems that F&H had previous debts which Schmid was not aware of. It apparently had nothing to do with the Hy6 project. In fact I heard that extra staff were recently put on to increase Hy6 production (Source: user 'EPd' on LL)<br>

Jenoptik owns Sinar so I imagine that if they had to, Sinar could resume production of the Hy6.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<blockquote>

<p>Not what I believe, but what I know. I've got Blad numbers all the way back to CINven. The thing I'm most interested in is where you picked up that particular little fairy tale.<br />With 600 people, Blad designed nothing but mechanical bodies. How did they acquire the capabilities to design the most sophisticated MF body on the market while simultaneously laying off 90% of their workforce?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That, Joseph, shows that you really do not have a clue.<br />You are (always have been - this is not the first time you have to be corrected) believing your own fancies.</p>

<p>Don't protest, Joseph. You really are!</p>

 

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>It would be very easy for Jenoptik to continue producion of the Hy6.<br />All they need to do is pump enough money into F&H Mk II to cover all outstanding debts and pay running costs for however long it takes for the thing to become profitable.</p>

<p>In such a deal, they can 'negotiate' the debts away quite simply.<br />All they need to do is wait until F&H Mk II is well and truly bust, and then pick up the remains for a song.<br />What they then should not pick up is the "Rolleiflex" name. Nor any other form of paying financial tribute to the Rollei company, none of the "Altlasten" the press release complained about.</p>

<p>Whether they will want to (and if so, under what conditions) do all that is another question entirely.</p>

[graham_mitchell]

<p>Q.G., why should Jenoptik pay F&H's debts? They have access to many production facilities themselves. Personally I expect that F&H will come to an agreement with its creditors and life will go on.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Graham,</p>

<p>Jenoptik will not pay F&H Mk II's debts.<br />They also need not move production to other facilities. All they need, if they want to, is just be patient and wait.</p>

<p>F&H Mk II has already tried to come to an agreement with their creditors, have sought financial help from business and government too.<br />"Life will go on" indeed. But without F&H Mk II.</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<blockquote>

<p>In fact I heard that extra staff were recently put on to increase Hy6 production (Source: user 'EPd' on LL)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is incorrect. Despite running the place as a "job shop" taking in any work they could get, and trying to keep the workers busy with a boutique clock business, they were still underutilized and laying off people. With the entire medium format market at under 6000 units/year, and shrinking, and Shriro having the lion's share, how many Hy6 bodies do you think were needed a year, and how many people does it take to build them ;)</p>

<p>And you talk about me believing "fancies" and having to be "corrected". You, sir, are in a total state of denial.</p>

<p>Anyway, Q.G., I was the one who woke up this year dormant thread because my predictions were materializing. I'm out of here for now. Back in another year when the Hy and Dry 6 is inarguably dead and burried. Until then, live with your little fancies, and I'll just make do with reality. Not as much fun as you're having, but I'd hazard, more satisfying.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Well, this thread points out why so many potential MF shooters can get confused really quickly.</p>

<p>I suppose one way to look at it is whether a system meets your needs, and will it be around later to keep the system updated and in good repair.</p>

<p>I think Phase One saw the handwriting on the wall, and made the right moves to keep viable. They no longer could make backs for the latest H systems, and were shut out of the Hy6 ... leaving what? Leaving aging discontinued systems that they cannot influence with new technologies and new design specs to implement those technologies ... which they CAN do, and to some smaller degree already have done, with Mamiya. There really was no other choice ... tighten the existing relationship and accelerate the development. </p>

<p>As a Hasselblad MF digital user, my hope is that Phase-Mamiya are roaringly successful with their venture ... because it'll keep Hasselblad on it's toes and responsive to the marketplace. At least two companies slugging it out is good for the customers. </p>

<p>I also hope Sinar and Leaf stay the course with the Hy6 and those wonderful Schneider AF optics ... they are innovative companies ... particularly Leaf with things like the AFi-II 10 with it's 56X36 internal rotating sensor on their panoramic 56 meg. back ... not everyone's cup of tea, but innovative and extremely flexable.</p>

<p> </p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Joseph,</p>

<p>Not only are you believing your own fancies, you're apparently in a state of great confusion too. You've lost the thread completely.<br>

Hope that you use that year off well. ;-)</p>

<p> </p>

[todd_k.]

<p>Don't worry, Pentax has a 30MP 645D coming out in 2010. It is to be priced around $10,000. It looks like 645AFDIII and the Fujiblad have some new competition.<img src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EaKv2MnCYK8/Sck_Y4BQOZI/AAAAAAAAA04/Sru2IF4KkDY/s1600-h/pentax_645.jpeg" alt="" /></p><div></div>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>And in the new today...</p>

<p>Leaf's camera assets (note, "assets", not "company") bought by Phase One, who doesn't appear to be very enthusiastic about the Hy6. <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062503phaseoneleaf.asp">(dpReview link)</a></p>

<blockquote>

<p>We have said to our Leaf colleagues that we will evaluate the future of this camera system but we are not currently convinced of its potential.</p>

</blockquote>

<p >So, what does Phase One get from this?</p>

<ul>

<li >

<p >Leaf's distribution channel</p>

</li>

<li>

<p >some marginal intellectual property (rotating back, pixel binning for low res "high ISO", and "live view" approaching 2 frames/second).</p>

</li>

<li >

<p >a name that isn't as valuable as the ones they already have.</p>

</li>

</ul>

<p>Personally, I think it was more to strike a blow (and probably a fatal one) against the Hy6, removing body and lens competition from F&H, and back competition from Jenoptik and Leaf.</p>

<p>How does this kill Hy6? One of the two back makers (and, I believe the larger of the two) is now just "assets", purchased by a competitor that says of Hy6 "we are not currently convinced of its potential". Well, what are the odds that they will be "convinced of its potential", when they own a decent camera and lens line themselves, and the maker of the Hy6 body, Franke and Heidecke, recently declared insolvency.</p>

<p>No, this really affects how F&H will climb out of insolvency, or what Hy6 IP holder Jenoptik can do to keep Hy6 backs in production. The market has just been slashed. I don't think we're going to see Jenoptik in the game very long. They're going to lose critical mass on both backs and bodies.</p>

<p>So it looks like there are now two MF players: Hassleblad (Shriro, Blad, Imacon, Fuji) and Phase One (P1, Mamiya, Leaf).My predictions are doing pretty well...</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>Apparently, I was right about a "fatal blow to Hy6". It's dead as of July 29, and no one on this forum even noticed. Jenoptik is not only exiting the medium format digital market, they're casting Sinar adrift. I wonder if Leica still wants it?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-BC5EEAA6/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_6824.htm?rdeLocaleAttr=en">Jenoptik press release</a></p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>As a result of the insolvency of the supplier Franke & Heidecke plus the significant deterioration in the business potential for mid format cameras (high-end), the Group has decided to withdraw from this sustainably negative business, and to carry out the associated reorganization of its locations and portfolios at home and abroad. Existing supply commitments have been terminated by mutual agreement with the customer.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There's several more paragraphs...</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

<p>Joseph,</p>

<p>What on earth makes you think that noone noticed???</p>

[swhiser]

<p>Interesting thread ... and the drama continues, but only now with the indelible imprint of globalization.<br>

Did anyone ever doubt that the weighted-epicenter of the digital medium format camera manufacture would migrate to East Asia, but with much of the intellectual weight staying West?<br>

All the traditional players, in the end, are, holding on by the hair of their chins but to only the components which they do in a clearly better way.<br>

So in rough measure it's Mamiya (Tokyo/Copenhagen/Tel Aviv), Fuji (Hong Kong/Gothenborg) & Pentax (Vietnam, Philippines).<br>

Kodak (Rochester, NY) has the intellectual property of the sensor -- not a minor component of value-added.<br>

Lenses are done well in Japan, but the best, Schneider & Zeiss, remain in Germany with some portions contributed in Asia.<br>

There's room for a dark-horse in here somewhere. I'd like to see Cosina come in with a 6x6 plastic Holga-type thing for 799 $US with adapters for Rollei, Hassy, Pentacon Six, Pentax 67 & 645 lenses. This will happen at some point but not until the cost of the sensor falls to where the difference between a square and rectangular frame is negligible. What, another 3 years?</p>

<p> </p>