Choosing a Filter System

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Hey All ... question regarding filter systems:

 

First off, sorry for the long post, but I am just a little confused. I would

like to get a starter pack of ND Grads (rectangular, not circular) and have

been doing research on here, BandH, manufactures websites, etc.. It seems that

the preferred High-End Filters are Singh-Ray and Lee. The Mid-Range Filters

are HiTech (Formatt) and the Low-End Filters are Cokin. There may be others

out there, but these seem to be mentioned the most.

 

My confusion comes with the holders and what filters are compatible with which

holders.

 

Cokin website lists the following range of holders...

 

A Holds 67mm wide filters; Made for lens diameters up to 62mm; recommended for

focal lengths 35mm and up; P Holds 84mm wide filters; Made for lens diameters

up to 82mm; recommended for focal lengths 28mm and up; Z Holds 100mm wide

filters; Made for lens diameters up to 96mm; recommended for focal lengths

20mm and up; X Holds 130mm wide filters; Made for lens diameters up to 118;

recommended for focal lengths 15mm and up.

 

Lee simply has one size holder which holds 100mm wide filters. The website

does not indicate a recommended minimum (or max depending on how you look at

it) focal length for use with the holder. They only caution that 2 or more

filters used in the holder could cause vignetting. I gotta believe that if

Cokin recommends 20mm and up focal length with its 100mm filter holder then

that would mean that you should use a 20mm and up focal length with Lee.

 

So, here are my questions ...

Can any 100mm filter be used with either the Cokin Z or Lee holder? Or any

other manufacturers 100mm holder? If you are shooting at focal lengths wider

than 20mm and using the Lee System will you get vignetting? If you are

shooting at focal lengths wider than 20mm and using the Cokin X are you stuck

with Cokin filters? Or does Singh-Ray Lee or HiTech make 130mm wide filters?

By my research they do not.

 

Now, I know that the answer to the compatibility question could very well

be ... Buy one manufacturer?s filters and its corresponding holder. Okay...

fair point, BUT my question about vignetting with the standard 100mm filter

systems and shooting wider than Cokins recommended 20mm still remains.

 

Personally, I would like to get the HiTech Filters (since they are good

quality and reasonable on the wallet), but by my research I would have to get

either the Cokin Z or Lee holder and be limited to shooting no wider than

20mm. Currently, I have the Canon kit 18-55 and will upgrade to the Sigma 10-

20 or Canon EF-S 10-22.

 

I would appreciate any thoughts, experience and/or recommendations. Thanks in

advance for your help.

 

- Jeff

[zvia_shever]

Hi Jeff,

 

I don't know much about Lee or HiTech filters but just bought a Cokin P holder and a

77mm adaptor ring to use with a Singh-Ray GNDF on a 17-55 2.8 IS lens. It all fit

together well. However, after taking some test shots, I noticed shaded/vignetting areas

appearing on the right side of each photo from 17-19mm. Once I zoomed to 20mm or

closer, the images were fine. I called the store where I bought the Cokin holder and they

said it was because 17-19mm is too wide to use with a regular Cokin P holder, and the

vignetting is caused by the actual holder. I should have purchased the Cokin P Wide Angle

Filter Holder (of course if they'd told me that originally, I wouldn't have had a problem :)

 

Anyhow, with a 10-22, you will definitely need the wide angle version (P299 - $15.39

B&H). Not sure what mm your lens is, but you'll also need an adaptor ring for each

differently sized (mm) lens you plan on using the holder/filter with. Make sure the

adaptor ring reference number begins with a P (not an X or Z).

 

Also, 28mm on a full frame is the equivalent of about 18mm on a cropped sensor. So

although Cokin recommends 20mm and up focal length with its 100mm filter holder, that

is for full frame, not on a crop (which I'm guessing you have as Canon EF-S lenses will not

work on a full-frame (5D etc..). I don't believe you need a 100mm filter system. The

Cokin P size holds up to 84mm; that is plenty to cover your kit lens, the Sigma or the

Canon 10-22.

 

So the bottom line is: The Cokin P Series Wide-Angle Holder will hold 84mm (Singh-Ray)

filters without vignetting on a wide angle lens. Supposedly, HiTech (85mm) should also fit

the Cokin P system...but...I have read about problems with the HiTech being a little to wide

to fit properly. One final note. With the regular Cokin P Series, you can stack up to 3

filters into one filter holder. In the Cokin P Wide Angle Holder, you can only place 1 filter.

Some people stack filters, ie: stacking a .3 ND with a .6 ND will give the same effect as a

.9 ND filter and so on. Personally, I do not stack filters as some people believe it can

negative affect image quality by adding more glass.

 

Hope this helps. Zvia

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Thanks, Zvia. Good information. Especially glad to hear that your singh-ray fit your Cokin P. I actually just noticed that singh-ray displays which filter size fits which Cokin holder (e.g. for P Size, for Z-Pro) on their website. Makes life easier. Good point about the crop factor. I had not taken that into account. Question though, if 28mm full frame = 18mm on a 1.6 then won?t 10mm-17mm on 1.6 vignette? Or will it just vignette on the regular Cokin P holder and not vignette on the Cokin P wide angle? I think I just answered my own question. By the way, check out singh-rays site for techniques on hand-holding filters .... might just make this whole conversation moot (http://singhray.blogspot.com/search?q=marc+adamus ? scroll down to Q: Why would I want to use the oversized 4x6 Graduated ND filters?)

 

Soooo, how do you like your 17-55 f/2.8?

[images_in_light_north_west]

Lee works great, get the 77mm ring, filter holder and maybe 3 4 x 6 soft GND's like .3 .45 .6

[danny_wong2]

My travel ND set are cokin wide and normal holder, Hitect .6 and .9 ND grads in hard and soft.

 

The wide holder is OK at 12mm APS-C sensor.

 

The Cokin is not true ND. The Hitects 85 will fit in the Cokin holder very tight. I sanded down the edge so the slide and stay in position better. It didn't take much sanding so becareful not to sand it down too much.

[zvia_shever]

Hi Jeff, I apologize, I had my numbers backwards on my response....a 28mm on a full

frame is about 45mm on a 1.6 crop. A 20mm on a full frame is a 32mm on a 1.6 crop. .

A 10mm on a full frame is a 16 on a 1.6 crop.

 

The Cokin booklet I have states the following about the Wide-Angle Holder-P Series:

 

"This extra slim holder helps to eliminate vignetting on "P" Series. Can hold 1 filter (can be

a polarizer) and allows the use of filters with super wide-angle lenses (focal lengths under

20mm in 35mm format)."

 

Hand holding filters can be tricky. Personally, I have a hard time holding a filter steady,

whether I'm using a tripod or hand holding. In addition, it can be difficult to know exactly

where to position the filter. If you place the filter in the holder and press the DOF preview

button (not sure what camera you have, but on my 30D it's on the lower left of the body),

you can usually make out where the line is and adjust accordingly. If you don't have a DOF

preview button, or if you simply can't tell (sometimes difficult on a soft edge) you can take

a few shots, changing the position of the filter within the holder slightly each time....sort

of like bracketing. That might be really hard to do accurately while simply holding the

filter. The holders are cheap, so it's nice just to have the option.

 

When using GND filters for landscapes, I've often been advised that a one stop difference

(.3) is usually not enough of a difference to make much of a difference. I bought a 2 stop

(.6) and will probably buy a 3 stop (.9) next.

 

The 17-55 2.8 IS is great lens, and should be for the $900+ price tag. I just bought a 70-

200 f/4 IS which I love. My next purchase will be either a fast prime or the Canon 10-22

you mentioned. I've heard a lot of good things about it.

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Zvia, no worries on the mm number conversions. I obviously had them backwards too! Good point on the holders. Nice option to have especially if you need both hands. Re: density, I will most likely avoid the 1 stop for now and go with a 2 or a 3 to start. Do you use soft or hard edge? SO jealous that you have the 70-200 f/4 IS. I am saving for this as well. I currently use a Tamron 28-75 and a Rebel Xt. Wide angle is the next purchase (sigma or canon) then the 70-200mm f/4 IS.

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Danny, thanks for the thoughts on sanding he HiTechs. Question, what grit sand paper do you use? Fine? Medium? I do not want to scratch anything. Also, do you find the 2 and 3 stops to be sufficient? Have you ever had a need to go greater? Like a 4 or 5 stop? Thanks.

[zvia_shever]

I use soft edge. It depends on what you're shooting. I'm going to the Andes mountains in

Ecuador in June and bought the soft edge because I'll be shooting landscapes with

mountains and volcanos in the background. A hard-edge would make the tops of the

mountains dark. Hard edge is good for sunsets over oceans among other things, where

there is a definite and straightish edge between the sky and ocean (or land), ie: no peaks.

I would think (not from experience though, as I only have soft edge) you could get away

with more "placement errors" with the soft edge as the edge is less obvious. Like Danny

above, many photographers use both.

 

Save up for the 70-200 f/4 IS, it's so sharp, quiet and focuses very quickly, plus the IS on

that lens is unbelievable.

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Zvia ... Andes, huh? COOL! Be sure to post your shots. Ah .. I see the difference for the use of hard vs. soft. Guess I'll just have to get both - more money for filters and less for my 70-200 f/4 :( Cannot wait til I can get my hands on one. Maybe I will rent one just to motivate me to save. Thanks again for your help.

[danny_wong2]

I use 320 grit to trim the filter's edge holding the filter vertical to the sandpaper.

 

2 and 3 stop are useful, 1 stop is usually not enough to make a difference. BUT there were times when a 4 or a 5 would have been handy but it was rare.

 

Soft edge is for when you do not have a straight line dividing the sky/horizon(mountains/treetops). Hard is for when the horizon is a straight line(beach/water).

[jeff_lundstrom2]

Danny, thanks for the info. Very valuable. You said earlier that 12mm APS-C is okay on the wider holder. What is the widest APS-C mm you've been able to shoot on the regular Cokin P? 19mm/20mm?

 

BTW ... do you have a gallery so I can check out some of your work?

[danny_wong2]

Never tried the regular 3 slot p holder on my 12-24 lens.

 

BTW when sanding do a stroke or two and then try for fit. My first attemp I was a little aggressive and the filter was a little too loose. You want it just tight enough to hold its position and still allow for simple adjustments.

 

The for best view of the effect stop the lens down to shooting aperature.