avoiding scratches on LF negatives during development

[herwig_prammer1]

relating to a former question, can anybody give me some advice about tricks or chemicals to avoid scratches when developing LF negatives in trays? doesn't it affect the chemical reactions of developers when adding for example photoflo in pmk?

 

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rgds

 

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herwi prammer

[david_walker1]

Herwig, You might want to read Adams' "The Negative" which covers

tray processing in great detail. Other wise the technique I follow is

to: 1) handle the sheets emulsion down. 2) when putting sheets in the

first tray (developer or pre-rinse) make sure the on going in hits the

liquid flat, so a corner won't dig in. 3) when agitating, lift the

pack up with your fingers, separate the bottom sheet and slide it

out, placing it on top of the pack 4) use trays at least one size

bigger than the film. I've found that the die cut operation that

cuts the notches (at least for Kodak) has gottne much sloppier

lately and leaves very ragged edges which can be the source of many

scratches. I use no chemicals added to any solutions other than

photo flow after wash. Film is slippery enough in developer.

 

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Dave

[kcrisp]

Herwig: Most will disagree, but I can't develop a stack of negatives

in a tray, interweaving them and not scratching them. So I develop

two at a time, in a tray, with a plastic divider glued to the bottom

of the tray. I never get scratches, but it does, of course, take

longer. Make sure your nails are trimmed so it isn't you instead of a

corner of a sheet of film causing scratches, and make sure there are

no burrs on the bottoms of your trays. It is surprisingly hard

(takes a good hit) to scratch a negative during development, I didn't

realize this until I tried it with the lights on with scrap film.

Also, don't mistake small pinholes or large ones for scratches or

dings when they may actually be dust in the filmholder. Good luck.

Can't begin to answer your question about PYRO, but somebody will

jump on it.

[cruiserparts]

I was just wondering why it seems so many people use tray development. I've never used

it myself; I have always used 4x5 tank development (individual sheets on hangers). It

seems easy enough, and I can't remember ever scratching a negative. I am relatively new

to LF. It seems like so many people use tray development and I was wondering if I have

missed something.

[john_boeckeler]

The usual advise for tray processing is to develop the films emulsion

side down, at least this is what Kodak and Adams's "The Negative"

recommend. When I started developing sheet film years ago, that's

what I did, and I usually got scratched emulsion. Then I read an

article in some photo magazaine that recommended processing with the

emulsion side down and have been doing it that way ever since with no

emulsion scratches. However, I have found that Ilford and Bergger

films tend to scratch slightly on the base side doing it my way. I

don't have this problem with Kodak films, and it's not really a

problem with the others because I use a cold light head. So I agree

with Mr. Walker. Try it his way.

[rob_pietri5]

I used to do trays but switched to tanks. If you really want to use

trays, make sure to use an over sized tray, 5x7 trays for 4x5 negs.

They have to have grooves in the bottoms so you can get underneath

each sheet with your fingers. You also have to shuffle them fast

enough to keep the developer fresh, between the sheets. The amount of

space between each sheet is minimal and that developer will exhaust

faster then you think. Also, the volume of chemestry has to be deep

enough to keep each sheet properly suspended.

 

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Here's an experiment. Set up a blank smooth card, like a neutral gray

card or a mounting board, on the side of your house, in open shade.

Set up your 4x5 camera so the card fills the frame, and is out of

focus. Make 6 exposures for zones 2 through 7. Then develope them

normally in trays. When I did this, the negatives were not evenly

developed with the greater density at the center of each sheet. I

didn't have to use a densitometer, but eyeballed it on the light box,

it was so apparent.

 

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My conclusion, use tanks.

[ben_calwell]

Herwig,

I've been tray processing 4x5 sheet film for more than 10 years and

have scratched maybe two in that time period. My method is to always

pre-wet the sheets in water first, which makes them not stick

together. For the developing, I use glass Pyrex bread pans that are

slightly narrower than the width of each sheet. This keeps the sheets

from settling to the bottom, but the pans are deep enough to keep the

sheets submerged in solution. I shuffle emulsion side down, usually

no more than five sheets at a time. The narrow, glass pans keep the

sheets corralled nicely, so that they don't wander around. Just make

sure the sharp corners of each sheet don't dig into the sheet below

it, and you'll be fine. If a life-long klutz like me can do this, you

can too.

P.S. Pyrex bread pans can usually be found in grocery stores or

kitchen supply stores.

[mark_sampson]

A presoak for exposed film, before the developer, is an excellent

idea. Plain water isn't best, though. Better to use a 1% kodalk

solution.The (slippery) alkalinity keeps films from sticking to each

other. This idea came from Gordon Hutchings' "The Book of Pyro". It's

a great idea no matter what your developer choice is.

[gary_meader]

I was at a worshop many years ago, and came across this

solution for development of LF negs avoiding the possible

scratches made by the tray bottom, and the problem of getting

one's fingers under the films consistently. Try this: develop in

large, stainless mixing bowls. Only the very corners of the film

touches the bowl, there's plenty of room to get a hold on the films

for agitation, and there is NO chance of bottom scratches. The

downside is that it takes a lot of chemistry to do this, but it

doesn't matter if you do a replenisher, like D-23,etc. Hope this

can solve a problem or two.

[domenico_foschi]

I keep reading in this forum that the sheet films are to be

developed emulsion side down, as Adams suggests.

 

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I have always remembered reading in " The negative " book (pag

210 edition 1988 ) that the negatives are to be handled emulsion

side UP.

It makes more sense to me since the softened emulsion can be

damaged by the "rails at the bottom of the tray., plus could

promote uneven development. although unlikely...

 

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I have used the "emulsion up method for years and with no

problems , but i will use a batch with the other method to see if

all we are doing is just acting out our anxiety of ruining the only

existing link to our finished image....

[skygzr]

My $0.02.....if you develop emulsion side DOWN (which I recommend),

be sure to keep your fingers under the film (I wear latex gloves), as

a previous poster suggested. If you have the emulsion facing UP, you

stand a good chance of scratching the emulsion with the corner of

another piece while you shuffle.

 

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I use 5x7 trays for 4x5. One liter of developer gives plenty of

depth so you can keep your fingers under the film. The tray is big

enough to work in, but small enough to keep the film from wandering

all over. If you have to square up a staggered pile of film, you

stand a good chance of scratching one of them.

[john_boeckeler]

Correction. I should have started out my answer by saying that Kodak

and "The Negative" recommend processing with emulsion side UP.

[david_goldfarb]

Trays are attractive, because most people have them when they first

get started in LF, they work perfectly well with the right technique,

and it is fairly easy once you get the hang of it to do as few as one

or two sheets or up to about eight sheets at once. If you are always

doing high volume, a tank and hanger system might become more

attractive, but you wouldn't want to have to fill a whole tank for

one or two sheets. Some of the inversion tanks seem to work well for

4x5". Drums lock you into a constant agitation pattern, which you may

not want.

 

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I process 8x10" in 11x14" trays. I like to have at least 1 quart of

chemistry for four sheets. I put the sheets in emulsion side up,

passing the sheets into the liquid in a sweeping motion from the front

of the tray to the back, slightly lifting the leading edge to avoid

damaging the sheet on top of the stack, then patting the top sheet

with my fingertips. I shuffle from the bottom to top, turning the

sheets 90 degrees periodically (depends on the development time and

agitation pattern for the film). It's worked for me.

[chad_jarvis1]

There's no substitute for practice.

[xx]

I like trays because:

i use a lot less chemistry

I can do n- and/or n+ processing along with normal.

I know immediatly if something bad is going on with sheets (sticking

together, etc.)

hell, I'm used to it

 

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I always dev. emulsion up and don't have any problems.

[michael_pry]

I use 11x14 trays with my 8x10 negs because I like to develop by

inspection. I wouldn't be able to inspect using other ways. I have

noticed the Berrger film is much more rough on the edges than the

Ilford and with shuffling emulsion side DOWN I have a few scratches

now and then on the base side of the neg. It is not a problem as I

contact print and heven't noticed them on the print. Had I developed

emulsion side down it would have been nightmarish at times. I have

never had a scratch in the emulsion fron the bottom of the tray.

[michael_pry]

Sorry-should read had I developed emulsion side up..........

[herwig_prammer1]

thanks a lot to you all for your information.

 

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rgds