Linhof Master Technika and Ebony 45SU

[robin_campbell1]

HI

 

I know this subject has to some extent been discussed before but i would value

some additional advice. I am thinking of buying a 4 x 5 large format camera. I

want to use 90mm, 150mm and 210mm lens on it for street, landscape and

buildings photography. I have narrowed down my choices to either the Linhof

Master Technika or the Ebony 45SU. I also like the Technikardan.

 

Would you really use the viewfinder on the LMT and handheld or will it be in

practise all on ground glass. The LMT is heavier but not excessively so. Any

advice you can give on on these two cameras i would be most grateful.

 

Thank you?

[martyn_oliver]

I accept that you have probably already decided on the two (you mention three in fact)

cameras you'd like to choose from. And I don't know what are you most important criteria

in making that choice.

 

Personally I have no experience of Ebony cameras. And although I swoon over the

engineering of the Linhofs, I don't believe they (and especially the Master Technika) will

offer you the mix of facilities your chosen subjects will probably need.

 

First, the MT is limited in movements -- great for landscape or portraiture, but for

buildings, and especially tall buildings, you will struggle. Also you will find that changing

lenses is more complex than it need be because of the need to switch cams (assuming

you'll sometimes want to use the MT's rangefinder; personally I prefer the ground glass

approach).

 

Why not consider a reasonably lightweight monorail (agreed the Technikardan is such)? If

you have a long enough rail you can also use a longer lens and get great close-ups.

[sattler123]

For street photography you could certainly use the VF - IF you have the correct cams for the lenses you want to use. Not sure about the Master Technika, but for the longest time you had to send in your particulart lens and your body to get a custom made cam for that combination. Linhof claimed that two identical lenses from the same manufacturer required different cams in order to be precise. You should (if at all possible) handle those two cameras before buying - rent them or try them out at a shop. LF cameras are simple, but not every camera will fit your style - I went through a good number of cameras before I settled on the Canham 4x5. I never warmed up to the Technikas or the mono rail cameras. If you can't try them before buying I hughly recommend that you buy a used camera instead - that way you won;t lose a lot of money, should you decide that the camera is not for you. There are very few LF photographers who hit the mark the first time around.

[bob_salomon]

You might want to look at the work of Mary Ellen Mark. She does use a hand held Master

Technika.

[Troll]

The Technika is a wonderful camera, but it is the proverbial "jack of all trades and master of none." If for some reason you could have only one camera it would probably be the choice. But for the kind of money you're talking about you should get the Ebony for use on a tripod, and a Crown Graphic for hand-held/street use.

[brucecahn]

There is no real comparison between the Master Technika and a Crown Graphic. They are similar in design, but the Linhof is on another level. It is a great camera, handheld or on a tripod with the ground glass. It works fine with the three lenses you mention. Make sure you get the best modern lenses. Despite the occasional comment on this forum about how great the older lenses are, there is a huge difference. It is easy to hand hold at shutter speeds down to 1/4 second. Surprising, but it is much more stable than a small light camera at those speeds. The camera's biggest drawback is that the viewfinder is not 100% accurate. Also the rear movements, as someone mentioned, are not that great. The cost has gotten very high. An outfit with those 3 cammed lenses would cost about $13,000 with viewfinder and grip. It is certainly a very great camera, and I have sold many of them in my store. If the handholding is not necessary you would be better off overall with the Ebony. The 45SU is also a great camera and very much in demand. We seem to be always out of them. It is just as bright and the focus as accurate as the Linhof. It is much easier to use with wide lenses. 90mm is not that convenient to use on the Linhof. On the SU it is easy, as are much wider lenses. The Ebony has more and easier to use movements. It is a wooden camera, and not everyone loves those as much as I do. The Ebony has asymmetrical tilts which makes tilting the back very easy The price with the same lenses will be around $7350., not an insignificant difference. Ebony prices will inevitably go up very soon because of the decline of the dollar (thanks politicians). If you can get one at the old price, buy it. If I had my choice I would take the 45SU, or both of them if possible. I sell both cameras and have personally owned a Master Technika and an Ebony 45S.

[Troll]

"Bruce Cahn, Feb 06, 2008; 01:48 p.m.<P>

 

There is no real comparison between the Master Technika and a Crown Graphic. They are similar in design, but the Linhof is on another level. It is a great camera, handheld or on a tripod with the ground glass."<P>I disagree. Hand-held it sucks unless you are Arnold Swartzenager. Hand-held is what the Graphics were designed for, and evolved over 50 years. No reason you couldn't use the same lenses on both cameras, though.

[robin_campbell1]

Thank you everybody who was kind enough to respond. There is a lot to think about. Bruce, did you ever use the Linhof hand held, and if so what were the results like? Also if wishing to use either the LMT or the 45SU indoors what flash would you recommend that is powerful enough that you but on the camera on a bracket?

[brucecahn]

To Robin and Campbell: To use the Linhof handheld you need the accessory grip. I am right handed. I hold the grip in my left hand and support the lower front right side of the camera with the right hand, which positions the hand perfectly to trip the shutter. No release is needed. To say the Linhof "sucks" is disrespectful of one of the greatest cameras ever made. It also indicates you do not know how to hold it. I bought the Linhof to have a handheld 4x5, used it frequently that way and was very satisfied with the results. I do not look like Governer Schwarzenegger, nor do I have his physical strength. It is simply a matter of technique. Regarding flash, never use it. The Linhof may be handheld so steady that ambient light is enough.

[robin_campbell1]

Thanks Bruce

[Troll]

Don't say that you weren't warned.

[eric_brody]

The Linhof must be a great camera, many of my favorite photographers use one and speak highly of them. For me, and I've played with one, it just did not feel right. I formerly used a Toyo 45A and now use an Arca Field. I am madly in love with my Arca. My point is to get your hands on which ever camera you are seriously considering, if at all possible. Take a trip if necessary to do this.

 

Good luck.

 

Eric

[kelly_flanigan1]

Let see; I have a 50 year old 127mm F4.7 Kodak Ektar that at F11 can deliver 85 line pair per mm on film in the center with a tripod shot; and now folks really think a quote *modern* lens is going to shoot a sharper image handheld? What a funny sad thread. A handheld shot with a 4x5 is not the best case granite block test case; its a compromise; and often real world sharpness is not going to anywhere near best case lab numbers. Maybe watching too many of those James Bond movies make folks think they can shoot 50 line pair per mm hand held?; think a practical 30 or lower.

[kelly_flanigan1]

If you are really going to shoot LF hand held you need to experiment with what results you can capture handheld,and try several different camera types. What one person may find easy to hold; another may find it heavy or clumsy. Here I perfer a railed camera for complex tilt ahd shifts; and a press camera for hand held stuff; and rarely hand hold the railed rig:)

[robin_campbell1]

Thank you everybody. The question of handholding is so difficult because some say it is it is great and others say it is poor. I really need to try out both cameras. Maybe i need my Mamiya 7 11 for handheld and the Ebony 45SU for field. I loved the feel of the LMT, the quality engineering and to me holding it did not seem so heavy. It was very well balanced. I have not seen or held the Ebony 45SU. I guess it is all about compromise. The benefit of the LMT would be it is a great all round camera,i camera for evrything. The limations appear to be on the very wide angle lens which the Ebony can take easily. The limations of the Ebony 45 SU is the lack of hand held. I am concerned when it has been suggested that the focusing and back on the LMT is not great. I am keeping my Mamiya with my 80 lens. If i take the Ebony I might even get a 65 mm. for the Mamiya. I will see if i can hire and use both cameras and then make a decision. I think as of now, from all of the advice, the jury is still out. Thank you to evrybody who has taken the trouble to respond and if anybody has any further comments please do so they are gratefully received.

[martyn_oliver]

"I will see if i can hire and use both cameras and then make a decision."

 

That, I think, is very wise. You can read stuff about line pairs per millimetre until you go

blind, but the real test is what works for you in practice, and what satisfies your criteria for

a good picture.

 

Back to the Linhof MT, for a moment. Nothing that's been said here suggests that anything

about that camera in 4x5 is "not great", it's just different people's opinions. Mine, about

the two features you mention specifically, are these: Rangefinder focusing with an MT is

not like rangefinder focusing with a Leica. Why? I don't know. Just my experience. It's not

quite as precise, and the viewfinder images are not quite as bright. However, ground-

glass focusing with an MT can't be beaten. Given good film holders, registration between

the glass and the film plane is almost perfect. The back? I guess by this you're referring to

the movements. The MT's back is pretty flexible in terms of tilts and swings, but there is

no rise or shift. The main worry from a movements point of view resides with the front

standard, which will rise, and will tilt backwards a bit -- but that's all. Architectural

photography is therefore limited.

 

I think you should also think again about why you want to use large-format, and perhaps

look at Philip Greenspan's article (http://www.photo.net/equipment/large-format/choosing) on

which LF kit to choose. The preamble to his article asks several questions about why one

should shoot LF, and you might find that you'd be better off with medium. For myself, I

use LF to shoot 4x5 polaroid, or to make contacts from 4x5 negs, so the negative size is

important. But if you plan to enlarge, you might be better off spending your money on

getting the best MF kit, say 6x9 (in the US, this is 4x3?).

 

With this in mind, if I can make a suggestion, why not take a look at Alpas? They are

fantastic to hand hold, have very usable movements, and are engineered to as high a

standard as the Linhofs. (Indeed, I'm sure some of their backs are made by Linhof, but to a

much tighter specification.)

[robin_campbell1]

Martyn

 

I love the Alpas and have recently looked at the Alpa 12 SWA. I posted a separate tread on the Medium Format Forum. I want the foreground and the back ground all in focus at the same time. therefore i need swings and tilts etc. If Alpa did this then i would go for one of those. Also i have been told that at A2 which i might go to occasionally the 6 x 9 would not equate to the same quality as the 4 x 5. Any advice please

[martyn_oliver]

You should look here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00LuZB) and

here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00E4Sn), and then go over to

http://www.rogerandfrances.com. Roger Hicks in particular mentions large-scale printing

from Alpa negs.

 

Sadly, I can't give direct advice, only anecdotal, because -- sadly -- I don't have Alpa money!

But if I did...

[don dudenbostel]

Robin I owned a Master Technika and shot it commercially for thirty years. I have never seen one of the Ebony cameras but have used my 8x10 Deardorff since 1972 and had a couple of 4x5 and 5x7's also. In 1969 I purchased a new Sinar Norma 4x5 / 5x7 and still have it and have shot tens of thousands of sheets through these cameras. The Master Technika is a fantastic camera and I regret selling it a few years ago. Never a problem with it and precise as can be made. I had the camera, grip, finder and had the 90mm SA 5.6, 150 Symmar S, 210 Symmar S and 360 Tele Arton cammed plus other lenses form 75 up uncammed. I did from time to time use it hand held but not often. I'm a big strong and steady guy but i don't think I coule hold it at 1/4 second unless i was going to contact print the negs only. Maybe 1/60 with a 150mm. It's true the finder isn't very accurate. I looked on the GG and zoomed the finder untill it matched the lens. Cams were dead on and you only have to send the lens in with the master not the camera. The big problem with architectual work and the MT is wide lenses and no bag bellows. Ther's a hinged flap on the top of the camera that allows the front standard to rise with wides and reduce the obstruction of the body. The bellows is very flexable but it's not a bag and the body does restrict my 90 5.6 SA a good bit and would not allow full movement of the lens. Everytime I have a need for architectual work I grab the Sinar. A monorail with a bag bellows is the best and easiest way to do this kind of work. Flat beds are excellent. I still have my 8x10 Deardorff and have a Shen Hao with a bag and standard bellows. I most likely will buy a 5x7 Canham wood camera this year and keep the other cameras too. As good as the flat beds are they still are limited compared to the monorails. Flatbeds can do what you want but the monorails will do it easier but are not as compact.

[rafael_macia]

The metal,clamshell design of the Linhof is perfect protection for field work, the type of work

you want to do.I have a Master, and in probably a thousand different locations, I have used

the multifocus finder for hand held work, ...maybe 5 times. Mostly, I use it as a director's

loupe to decide on framing a shot before I mount a lens .... not always ... sometimes. Using

the rangefinder is impractical hand held with color. Becausewith 100 speed film; what would

be the handhold speed you would use?. Remember a 4x5 lens at F8 is like a 35mm lens at F4

very little depth. Hand held 4x5 died with black and white news work. ..... with artistic

exception!

[robin_campbell1]

Thank you all.

 

Don

 

For me, the advantage of the LMT is its espoused ability to hand hold effectively for 4 x 5 and the wide angle and buildings and landscape ability. However, if the handheld is not great, and their are limitations over movements for buildings and wide angle for landscape would i not be better with a camera that only works through ground glass and has the additional movements and lenses?

 

Robin

[joel_sackett]

I inherited my MT from a photographer who used it hand-held for journalistic work. He shot at least one cover for TIME magazine, a hand-held portrait in Vietnam. I use it infrequently but have a particular system that works for me. I shoot portraits, hand-held, of families and children. 400 asa. I often sit in a chair or prone on the ground for smaller children or families that are posed on ground level. These positions give me stability and don't tire me out. I've also used a monopod with a slightly loosened Arca B1 ball head to take the weight off the camera. Typical exposures in the shade are 1/60 at about f8. Rocky steady with a 150 mm lens. The polaroid holder does make using the range-finder difficult but it works. I've added strobes at times, a Lumidyne 400 watt second. Check out the classic East 100th Street by Bruce Davidson for bounced strobe with the MT. Also, I recently saw an 11X14 print by Mary Ellen Mark at a friend's house. The image presence was strong. It doesn't have to be a huge print to feel the presence of the large negative print.

[rafael_macia]

Robin,

The Ebony would be better for architectural work than the Linhof. The camera would be able

to do more lens corrections. Both Ebony & LMT would be good for landscapes. The Linhof

would be better suited for carrying around, owing to the clamshell design. I think the

greatest of all 4x5's for handheld work with a rangefinder is the Crown Graphic top

rangefinder model. Fit that with a late 135 Xenar lens or if you can find one; the wonderful

(IMHO) Yserex (I think the spelling is Ok) by Rodenstock. lens. That is a hand held 4x5!

[leo_grillo]

Years ago Peter Gowland built a wonderfully rugged binocular reflex viewfinder for my MT

... beats rangefinding, especially since you can see your movements. For handheld

portraits he built a 4x5 twin lens reflex ... tall camera but effective. These days I am using

the Sinar F2 monorail in the field and the Mamyia 7II for handheld. The MT is sidelined yet

again.

[dave_s]

Robin, I agree 100% that you're right to rent for a week, or buy second-hand. You're in England (good guess?), south-east? (good guess?) so you might try Teamwork in the near west end. They have a range of large format and they do rentals.

 

The recommendations for a Crown Graphic don't work here-- they are scarce in the UK, and parts are hard to find (although there's always mail order). Very portable, but minimal movements. If a Technika is a Porsche, then a Graphic is an old pickup truck.

 

Some of the advice in this thread is from U.S. camera dealers who are naturally predisposed to their own products, so take it with a grain of salt.