amanda_b. Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I use a Canon Digital Rebel set to sRGB. I am editing photos in Photoshop CS3 on Windows XP. <p> I plan on self-publishing a full-color photobook using Blurb's Booksmart software. They use the HP Indigo 5000 ICC Color Profile for their printers. I have downloaded and installed this profile. <p> I have NOT YET calibrated my monitor. Currently I've been edting my photos in CS3 and using that profile to proof the image. <p> Ok now... I should still calibrate my monitor, yes? <p> I have read the post here, <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg? msg_id=003zIG">http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003zIG</a>, and am completely confused on how the monitor profile and the printer (HP Booksmart) profile will be managed together... <p> In that post one poster says: <p> <i>You definitely should not use a printer profile for your monitor profile. There is no connection.<b>You profile the monitor and use the profile in Photoshop to adjust what you see on screen to accurately reflect the data. You then use the printer profile, also in Photoshop (or other ICC compliant digtal darkroom software), to tell the software what the output will look like via a soft proof</b>.</i> <p> Granted I haven't done the monitor calibration yet but can someone just tell me the basics of how this works? How do I have two profiles going? I mean, how do I set up the monitor calibration prfile AND also set up the printer profile? Is the monitor one constantly "running?" And then I manually turn on, in CS 3, the printer profile when I want to edit for that profile (which is what I am doing now, going to View > Proof Colors, with the Booksmart Printer Profile selected). <p> I may be "putting the cart before the horse" here but before I buy a monitor calibration software (looking Spyder2 Express) I'd like to just know the basics of how the two profiles work together... <p> Thanks in advance! <p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seland Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 He is right, but he writes somewhat confusing. When you calibrate you monitor, your (new) monitor profile should be loaded and used without you to think about it. Your OS should take care of that (making your monitor calibrated even for Microsoft Word...), and it should not be something to think about withing Photoshop. Use the printer profile for soft proofing only, as you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanda_b. Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 A million-trillion thanks! So once I calibrate the monitor, is that it? I shouldnt need to change anything or re-do it right? Unless something changes? Meaning it's a setting that is set by default or will I need to load/select it each time I use Photoshop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 You may have to re-edit your images after calibrating the monitor. It helps to have a roadmap of color management. At the core is the image file itself. Like any file, it is an assemblage of digital words. The device independent color space, like sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) specifies which color each of those words should represent. The monitor profile is a set of correction factors imposed between operating system and the video card driver so that image files are displayed correctly. A color managed (CMS) program like Photoshop, reads the image file AND the embedded color space and displays the image according to that color space. In conjunction with the monitor profile, the image is displayed with the correct colors, the same colors as on any other calibrated monitor. Incidently, CMS is why images in sRGB, Adobe RGB et. al. look the same in Photoshop (with minor differences), but not in a non-CMS program. The printer profile is a set of correction factors used by a CMS program to adjust the "correct" colors of the image so that they will print correctly - compensating for the idiosyncracies of the printer and paper. The printer profile is only used for printing, or for viewing the image in Photoshop's "soft proofing" function. Soft proofing uses a "reversing" feature built into most printer profiles which show the limitations of reproducing the image with the CMYK inks, that particular printer and paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Amanda: Right - your monitor calibration is just a way of getting your display driving card and your actual display to properly render the colors that whatever your computer is up to (playing a game, editing photos - it doesn't matter what) is trying to display. The display calibration profile is used by the video driver software that handles all of the talking to your monitor. You set it, and forget it. <br><br> Well, sort of. Monitors change over time, as do room lighting conditions - which can dramatically alter the way you see things. Even some inexpensive calibration tools (like the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPantone-MEU113-huey-Pro%2Fdp%2FB000OFC1YY%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Delectronics%26qid%3D1200088590%26sr%3D8-1&tag=uplandlife-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325" target="_blank"><b>Huey Pro</b></a> can be left plugged into your computer's USB port, and they'll continuall monitor the lighting conditions in the room, and tweek your display's output to keep things properly balanced. This all happens in the background. <Br><Br> So, once you have your display <i>displaying</i> correctly whatever's been sent to it, it's up to individual apps to handle other things. In the case of a printer profile, you're telling your image editing program to show you the image as YOU need to see it, so that when it gets handled by that printer, it all works out well. <br><br> To grossly, grossly simply that: let's say the nature of a given printer is that it always has a touch of green in the output that shouldn't be there. By choosing that printer's known-to-be-good profile when you're proofing in PS (or any other app that knows what to do with it), you're going to make your computer show you the image on <i>screen</i> in a way that takes that into account... and saves a file <i>for that funky printer</i> in a way that will come out matching the screen image. But none of that stuff will look right (or trustworthy) if your display is out of wack in the first place. So, yup, two different things going on, and not mutually exclusive. <br><br> Can I make an analogy? Calibrating your display is like tuning your piano - you want a middle C to be a middle C, every time. Using a printer profile is like adjusting what you're playing UP half an octave so that the song is a better match for the singer you're accompanying... but without the piano being in tune, it would sound bad no matter what key in which you're playing. No really, it's a good analogy! Can I copyright that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyepasha Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Uhm, I am tone deaf, so I didn't get that last musical analogy ;-), but Amanda, I very highly recommend you get your workflow to Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB instead of sRGB. Change your DigReb to AdobeRGB and the color worspace of CS3 to AdobeRGB and you will be working with a much richer set of colors than the very small sRGB color space. Borrow a color calibrator from someone or rent from a shop to convince you that from the very first calibration you will notice a remarkable shift in colors. Working CS3 adjustments without a calibrated monitor is like tuning a piano with earplugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanda_b. Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 As always, thanks for the great and detailed replies. I went ahead and decided to buy the Spyder2 Express, I hope it works out. For printing the book I am working on, they convert to sRGB so I have read that it's best to have my photos in sRGB to start with. Other times I can change that but for this project, I am using sRGB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelkh Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 photo.net needs some sort of rating system for forum replies, so we could put five stars next to this one. Nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspiration point studio Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Your last statement is incorrect: For printing the book I am working on, they convert to sRGB so I have read that it's best to have my photos in sRGB to start with. Other times I can change that but for this project, I am using sRGB. All your master files should be in Adobe RGB (or something better), when you want to output those images into a book format, make a copy of the image, crop to the appropriate dimension, then CONVERT them to the sRGB space before inserting them into the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinsouthern Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Just think of a monitor profile as being an "automatic tweak" to compensate for monitor inaccuracies - the a printer profile as doing the same, but for the printer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinsouthern Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 "Change your DigReb to AdobeRGB and the color worspace of CS3 to AdobeRGB and you will be working with a much richer set of colors than the very small sRGB color space." That is, of course, the classically taught theory - unfortunately though, only a very few monitors can actually display the full Adobe RGB gamut, and most printers print very little of it (over and above the sRGB counterpart) - so often, not a lot to be gained. On the flip-side, the bigger the gamut, the easier it is to create out-of-gamut situations - which are then rendered into "something" as your screen tries to display them, and something completely different when your printer tries to print them - so often, there's a lot to be lost. Colorspaces like Adobe RGB (and to a greater degree prophoto) can be like a formula 1 car - capable of fantastic performance in knowledgeable and experienced hands - or extremely dangerous in the wrong hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctwdaz Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I'm somewhat worried because of Colin's last statement "capable of fantastic performance in knowledgeable and experienced hands - or extremely dangerous in the wrong hands." Does that mean simply setting the camera's color space to Adobe RGB as well as in PS CS and, if I can find how to do it in Lightroom and on my Canon Pixma Pro9000 printer, will not necessarily result in a perfect color match on every print without fail? I have the monitor calibrated with Pantone Huey. What more does one need to do? (This whole experience tends to become so muddled.) Thanks for letting me vent. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_smith4 Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 "For printing the book I am working on, they convert to sRGB so I have read that it's best to have my photos in sRGB to start with. Other times I can change that but for this project, I am using sRGB.: For your purpose, that's probably fine. I print most of my images in SRGB and don't notice anything missing. If you're shooting highly saturated sunsets, etc you may benefit from a wider color space. I use AdobeRGB as my working space for most images. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_smith4 Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Anne- Lightroom uses ProPhoto internally. If you're using Lightroom to convert RAW files it doesn't matter what the camera is set to (that's just for jpegs). For your printer, you should use Photoshop print with preview and select the right profile (called something like Canon Pro9000 glossy?) for printing. Lightroom should have a list of printer profiles you can choose, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctwdaz Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Thank you for that explanation, Roger. I do pay attention to the printer profile, but when printing directly from LR some colors tend to be dull and drab. If I import to PS and print they are bright and right on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_smith4 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Prints should be identical with identical settings- Adobe is Adobe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanda_b. Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Just an update, I received and installed Sypder2 Express last night and WOW what a difference! My pictures look so much better now, it's unbelievable....so thanks for the help again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd_brown1 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi, Where can I download or find the HP Indigo 5000 ICC Color Profile? I have tried Sam's Bonsai sight but it did not download. Thanks, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigi cidadi Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Dear all. I am about to order a blurb book size 13x11. I changed the photos in sRGB and soft proofing with INDIGO profile. What about monitor profile. I am working with Mac and I don t have a profiling tool. Is it better keep the standard monitor profile LCD which gave me a warm hue or try sRGB 2.1 monitor profile (cold hue) and start to correct the photos from there? LCD or sRGB 2.1 for a better solution? Regards, Gigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_smith4 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Gigi, you need to calibrate your monitor with a hardware device like the Spyder2 (or Eye-one). None of the other solutions you mention are really solutions as you're not calibrating to a known standard. What you don't want to do is to edit your pictures to look right on screen only to all look wrong when you print because your screen wasn't accurate. I've gone down that route before myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigi cidadi Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I am going to buy the device tomorrow. Thank you Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_c1 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 <p>I'm digging up this old thread and I'm still confused about all f this. But that is b/c I still need to read more. My question is about LCD monitors. Depending where you are sitting - literally(!) the photo on your screen will look different - lighter, darker, flatter, brighter. I have often thought all is well, printed and it is much darker, I tilt my monitor and see an entirely different result - how do you all deal with flat screens????</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_smith4 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 <p>Sit in exactly the same place each time and don't adjust or tilt the monitor.</p> <p>It sounds to me, though that you're using a laptop rather than a normal LCD monitor. I'd buy a used external CRT on craigslist and you'll get way better results. I'm working on a 19" Lacie blue IV I just got for $75.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_c1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 <p>Nope, not a laptop, regular PC with monitor. I do sit in the same place but the monitor does not go up or down and I tilt it a bit for my work so I can see better. Anyway , sounds like I need to look into the profiles more carefully. Frankly, I find it all confusing but will figure it out...</p> <p>thanks</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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