looking to buy first medium format camera, possibly an old tlr

[puck]

i am looking to get into medium format photography. not too keen on the holgas

at all. the pentax and fuji 645 type cameras are a little too overpriced. the

bronica prices seem to be about 20% higher all of a sudden from the summer

months when i last checked.

so i am looking for a cheap tlr. this rules out rollei and to an extent even the

yashica tlr cameras. i am looking to get something that works fine and would be

a good beginner camera without having to spend too much. how much is too much?

uk pounds 25-30 is my budget inclusive of postage! so i am looking at 1930's

zeiss ikonflex as well as a few other german made tlr cameras.

is it a bad idea to buy an older camera like these without a mnaual for a

starter medium format?

[nealcurrie]

If your budget is 30 pounds, how do you plan on buying, processing, and printing or scanning the film?

[christopher_graham1]

We bought a 1930's Rolleicord for about 60 pounds (somewhere around there it was under 150 USD). It has proven to be a remarkable little camera and is in excellent shape. Not excellent shape for its age but excellent shape in general. It is a great little camera. If you can find one don't rule out the Rolleicords. They aren't quite as fancy as the Rolleiflexes but they have great glass and can be found quite cheaply. Though the Ikonflex has a good reputation as well. I agree especially looking that old German is the way to go. Several makers around that time went in together to buy parts so just about any German camera in the 30's would be a pretty nice camera.

[JDMvW]

Consider a good, working Weltaflex made in East Germany. They are decent and should be in your price range. There are some other former Warsaw Pact TLRs like the Flexaret and some Soviet ones. I don't know where you are in the UK, but London should have these in shops.

[doug grosjean]

Asked:

"is it a bad idea to buy an older camera like these without a mnaual for a starter medium format?"

 

If you've got prior experience with manual-everything cameras, you'll be fine. All the numbers (F and shutter) are the same as any 35mm camera, or close enough it'll make sense to you.

 

If you've never picked up a camera in your life, well.... but it sounds like you have already played with others.

 

Regarding price, here in the States I'd recommend a Ciro-Flex TLR in your price range. I suspect the Russian and East German stuff will do fine instead.

 

Bear in mind that the TLRs are getting old, so shop carefully. I'd recommend buying one you can inspect before money changes hands. I don't recommend Ebay to new buyers wanting a camera bargain, as it seems a rather high %%% of the cameras I've bought there have needed attention. Like about half, more or less.

[puck]

neal currie - i have films bulk processed by peak imaging. twenty rolls every three or four months is what my output had been since taking up photography as a serious hobby since about this time last year. so far i had only shot 35mm film. the negetives are then home scanned in my budget epson 4950 modified scanner. i don't mind spending money on processing. i know there would be a steep learning curve like there had been with 35mm. this is why i wanted an older, cheaper camera to learn the basics.

 

thanks to everyone else for your comments and contributions as well. i don't live in london. this means access to cheap secons hand shops is not an option. the only second hand camera shop charges extortionate prices for used medium format cameras. a well used yashicamat 126 has a pricetag of 200 pounds in their display window. i saw a mint one of these go on ebay for 70 pounds inclusive of postage yesterday!

[mizore]

If you have camera flea markets anywhere reasonably close, often someone will have

something that you can get cheaper than eBay.

[nealcurrie]

In that case, I'd try to find somelike like an old Mamiya(Flex?) TLR. C, C20, C220.

[rogerwb]

Even with shipping from the US, Ciro-Flexes, and their later incarnations, the Graflex 22s are dirt cheap, mechanically simple enough to keep running yourself, and are built like tanks. The D,E and F are the most desirable Ciro's, or the Graflex 200 and 400.

[vojislav_mileti__263_]

I've bought (local camera flea market) my Yashica Mat 124G for 25 euro, so it's not impossible to find one I guess. Works perfectly.

[nick_wilson2]

There were quite a few odd ones about back when TLRs were big...I have a Toyocaflex bought for c. 1 UK pound in a op shop (charity shop or whatever they are known over there).

 

But you have to be there at the right time and not be TOO fussy. But on your budget this is inevitable anyway.

[Vlad Soare]

The cheaper the camera, the greater the probability that it will need a CLA. You should take the extra cost into account.<br>

You can also look for a Flexaret. They are small, light, simple and dependable. Very good cameras, despite their Eastern European origin. I also find them very good looking.

[paulh]

I know you said you'd look for a TLR, but for that budget, you could also look at folders.<P>

 

For example, one of the later model Agifold (UK made) cameras. Fairly well built with uncoupled rangefinder and extinction meter. The lens gives interesting results when used wide open, and is respectably sharp when stopped down to f8. You should be able to pick up a good one with your budget.<P>

 

Here's an example from my Agifold, shot wide open:<P>

<IMG SRC="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1336/538508251_f060a2ae77.jpg">

[Uncle Goose]

If you want a cheap TLR with good glass then you can't go wrong with a Flexaret, make sure it has got a CLA and the seller states it works, Cupog on Ebay has them for sale quite often and is trustable. Make sure you got one with a Belar lens as it's a tessar, the earliers Flexarets have only a Trinar lens called Mirar (except the III and IIIa, which have some kind of early Belar but it's called Mirar II). I recommend a Flexaret IV because it can do double exposure, it's not utterly complex in use and can be repaired easily by any repairman (hell, even I repaired a Flexaret IV so how hard can it be).

[richard_oleson]

Even though it's already been mentioned, I'll repeat my ad infinitum endorsement of the Ciro-Flex. They sell for around $30 US which leaves you some money for film out of your 30 pounds, and in addition to having a decent lens and shutter they are so simple in construction that there is very little to go wrong with them over time. If you decide you like MF, surely you'll want a more sophisticated camera very soon, but in the meantime you will produce some legitimate medium format pictures.

 

There are 2 different shutters, Alphax or Rapax; look for the Rapax, a cock-and-release type with speeds from 1 to 1/400 second. Later models have flash synch and one of the first fresnel bright screen finders to hit the market.... earlier ones lack both of these but have a sort of Rollei style parallax correction in the finder (they dropped that to make room for the Fresnel field lens in 1948). The flash connection is the old ASA bayonet post, not real useful today, but they are X synch if you can find an adapter.

 

Ciros will cost more in England than in the USA due to the postage costs; another good alternative, also already mentioned, is the Flexaret. Considering the postage difference it might even be a better deal for you than the Ciro. It's considerably nicer in appearance and operation, has a better lens, and is almost as simple and age-proof in construction. The finder is painfully dim though, it doesn't have the Ciro's bright screen.

[waite_watson]

A budget of 30 UK pounds?You folks use the same pounds we do here,don't you (16 oz. avoirdupois)?So,I've got to ask 30 pounds of what? 30 pounds of $ 100 bills will buy you any system you could possibly want 30 pounds of pennies might buy you a Holga! So, 30 pounds of what?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ps. No,I'm not really that stupid,but it's funny isn't it? I actually know people in this country would would ask such a question!

[david_m]

I would strongly advise against a Ciroflex. I have owned many of them and they are a really junky camera. They are poorly made and frequently out of alignmant. Even the backs rarely fit properly. The lens is poor (unless you get the rare F model) and the Alphax shutter is terrible. No flash sync either. The best buy would be a Ricoh Diacord, Zeiss Ikoflex, Weltaflex or maybe even an old Rolleicord.

[dave_s]

Puck, you may be sort of screwed, because if you buy internationally, postage to the UK will eat up much of your 30UKP. If you buy in the UK, second-hand prices will be silly. I would save up and shoot 35mm until you have maybe 100UKP-- then the world of 'cord Vs and Mamiya 220/330s will open up to you.

 

If you're lucky and patient, you might find an older Rolleicord in your price range-- I sold a 'cord III Xenar for $45 a few years ago, because it was a bit out of alignment. (Had a couple of degrees of front swing, but in practical use it made excellent negatives). Alternatively you might find something like a Mamiya C3.

 

If you're shooting 120 B&W and scanning, you'll save money and have better negs if you develop your own. But you knew that.

[richard_oleson]

The only point that David and I have in common (other than having owned many Ciro-Flexes) is the dislike of the Alphax shutter. You can't get a sharp photo with an Alphax, no matter how sharp the lens is, the release shakes the camera. I'll happily match photos from the Wollensak lens against some from a Rolleicord Triotar, though.

[carsten_wolff]

Puck,

I've had a couple of TLRs: A Seagull, a Ciro-flex and a few Yashica-mats. All of them are very different

"animals". My favourite was actually the modern Seagull, but I only got about 100 rolls out of it before the

shutter failed (and internal triggering lever seems to be made from too soft a material and just can't be fixed).

The Yashica was great and I can't really fault it. Contrary what others have said I''ve been reasonably happy

with the Ciro-flex and never had any real issues with the Alphax shutter either. It was a very simple, but very

robust camera. No film advance-to-shutter coupling, but the Alphax worked like a charm: very consistent speeds;

you simply need to use it with a short cable release, as it is otherwise awkward to trigger. No idea what model I

had, it might have been a "D" and it did have flash-synchro. The thing I didn't like so much was the rather dim

screen (I cleaned the mirror and the ( a bit coarse plastic fresnel) screen without much improvement) and the

lack of any parallax correction. The coated 85mm/f3.5 Raptar was fine as well. I took quite a few nice pics with it.

I bought it for $17US you know where and it cost me with shipping about 25-30 UK Pounds all up. In contrast, the

as-new Seagull cost me 50 Pounds s/h in a camera shop and the two Yashicas I had between 50 and 80 Pounds, also s/h.

 

As an aside: I don't do MF much these days. I've moved largely to the 5x7" format and a bit of digital, but

sometimes carry a small Agfa 6x9 folder with me.....Now, THOSE are fun!