A system for a life: Pentax 67 or Bronica SQ-B

[lukasz_grabun]

<p>I hope this question hasn't been asked too many times before. I did some

search over forums and couldn't find a straightforward answer, so please,

excuse me, if I ask an obvious question.</p>

<p>I am not new to MF, not new to photography in general. I am a happy owner of

a number of OM bodies, a lovely RF labeled Bessa. In the past, I had a chance

to shoot with two MF TLRs - namely Yashica 124G and Mamiya C330 - which, being

unwise enough, I sold few months ago.</p>

<p>Now I miss medium format. OMs and Bessa are lovely cameras and I enjoy them

almost every day but - no matter what 135 geeks claim - MF is superior over

"small frame" in terms of tonality, general IQ and - what I enjoy most - the

"shallowness" of DOF.</p>

<p>Anyway, making a long story short: I am looking for a medium format system

for a, well, maybe not for a life but for nearest years.</p>

<p>The choice is tough.</p>

<p>There are two cameras, both in decent shape, both sold with a bunch of

lenses that would cover most - if not all - my photographic needs, both sold

for virtually the same price.</p>

<p>First one is Pentax 67 with 5.5cm, 10.5cm and 13.5cm lenses in mint

condition. The other one is Bronica SQ-B, also in very good condition, with

8cm, 11cm macro, 15cm and 25cm lenses. The price is $300 higher but I can bear

it. Bronica comes with external light meter.</p>

<p>My priorities are:</p>

<ul>

<li>the overall built quality of a camera. I think Pentax wins hands down here.

This cameras are said to be built like a tank and even when used by a pros they

last for years.</li>

<li>the ease of making the pictures handholding the camera. It's

<strong>extremely</strong> important to me as - even though I own a sturdy and

heavy tripod - I do not feel like burdening myself with a 2 kgs hunk of iron or

whatever my tripod is made of when going for a Sunday walk! Bronica has an

advantage here, with a waist level finder, it weighs less and is more compact.

I've read few articles on Pentax 67 and the opinion on whether it can be used

without tripod is ambiguous, to say the least.</li>

</ul>

<p>The question is, as you may have already find out: which one would you - if

you were in my shoes - buy? Since it'll be the camera I won't change in the

future I want to make the right choice.</p>

[.th]

since handholdability is one of your top priorities, i'd take the camera with the higher max shutter speed (i'm assuming the pentax goes higher than the 1/500th of the bronica). i'm slightly tempted to believe you might get disappointed with handheld results with a 250mm mounted (on any medium format slr).

[lukasz_grabun]

<p>Shooting with 250mm handholding is out of question. What I meant is rather using 105mm lens with Pentax and 80mm with Bronica.</p>

<p>Pentax goes down to 1/1000th in terms of maximum shutter speed.</p>

[darr]

I have owned a Bronica ETRS in the past and currently a Pentax 67II. I would never give up my Pentax, but you need to do some checking on which Pentax 67 body that is. You should have the mirror lock-up option if possible. I believe there are three generations of Pentax 67s. The middle and newest ones I believe have mirror lock-up.

[trooper]

Decide if the larger negative means something to you.... Also, if you tend to think and print in rectangles, it adds more true usable negative from that aspect. Does mid-film changing appeal? Once that roll is in the Pentax, you're committed. I've had both and they are both very capable when handled correctly. The Pentax will likely require more robust support which makes a hiking kit bulkier and heavier in total. The Pentax optics are generally good but with some lens to lens variation. Pentax winders can be troublesome if abused but as you said, they're generally very reliable.

 

Just to complicate things further, do you need the slr aspects for long lens duty or macro? If this isn't a priority, perhaps a Mamiya 6/7/7II or Bronica 645RF could cover most needs. Great optics and very easy to have with you. Sorry to drift from your choices but I have found that I can do virtually everything that I need photographically with medium format rangefinders and I'm more likely to actually have my gear along with me.

 

Your choice is quite pleasant as either system will serve you well and produce very solid results.

[kelly_hughes]

And if the Bronica 645RF does become a consideration, then you should also toss the Pentax 645N into the mix. I don't know the Bronica enough to compare, but the Pentax 645 line has mirror dampening that reduces slap for easier handholding. Plus it has 2x the flash sync speed over the 67, internal metering that's reputed to be dead on, lighter than 67 by far, etc. The best "bang for the buck" in 645 is the N model that adds the nice shutter speed wheel and AF capabilities, but not the extra expense of the latest NII model that really only adds the [unnecessary] mirror lockup. 645N's typically go for about $500 to $700 on eBay including an AF lens. If the AF and shutter speed wheel don't matter, the MF-only 645 first gen is about $300 with lens.

 

Best of luck any way you decide. Post back and let us know where you land.

[mike_earussi1]

Overall the Pentax is more durable. But you do need to know which body and 55mm lens it is as there are there different models of each (specifically you do NOT want the 55 f3.5).

[d_purdy]

I am able to hand hold a Pentax 67 a pretty slow speeds by using mirror lock up. Frame

the picture in the finder and set yourself to take the picture then lock up the mirror for a

second holding your position, relax and push the shutter. Obviously that wouldn't work

for street photography where you are shooting people. Pentax is cheap enough to try it

out and then sell it on ebay if you don't like it, though you will probably like it. the image

quality is really nice in tone and sharpness. A lot of the lenses are f4 though so I am not

sure how that would work for you with your desire to shoot wide open fstops.

[rothelle]

Never did like anything of the Bronica cameras and I use an old ass 67 Pentax with a 150mm lens on it and I do not use tripod. So I do understand when most people think you need a tripod to work with this camera. I even shoot it at 1/15 of a second hand held and I have some sharp ass photograph form it. I love Pentax and think it is one of the best medium format cameras on the market for the price.<div></div>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I'd go with the Bronica - but that's because I prefer leaf shutters as they will flash sync at all speeds.

[dougmiles]

I have a pre-1977 P6x7 without MLU (bought used in '77), a very late P6x7 just prior to the name-change to "67", and two P67II... As you can guess I really really like this system, though I have no experience with Bronica other than two RF645, which are also marvelous rigs.

 

There are two 55mm f/4 lenses both excellent, the later marked "67" and with different glass. I think all the Macro 135's have the same optics but different cosmetics. Same for the 105's AFAIK, a great lens, and fast at f/2.4. There are several f/2.8 lenses in the middle of the P67 lineup, from the latest 75mm f2.8 AL, compact 90mm, discontinued 150, and fine 165mm, so DoF can be very narrow!

 

The camera's design says "hand-hold me" and I mostly do; very easy operation and solid quality.

[supapong_chan]

I never use P67 but my SQ-B is easily controlled in the field w/o tripods.

 

With WLF I just simply pou up the magnifier and counter the force of

 

pushing up with both hands against my forehead I believe I can manage

 

with the mirror slap vibration as evident by sharpness in most shots at or

 

over 1/30 sec.

[claude_batmanghelidj]

The 67 is a monster. It is huge, and worst of all the shutter and mirror cause all kinds of lateral movement and shock for the camera, which results in soft images, due to movement. You need to shoot at high shutter speeds to overcome this.

 

It is indestructible though, as long as you do not encounter an electric or electronic problem, in which case it becomes a paper weight. Also, the metered prisms are easy to find. Quite honestly, though, with all my experience with cameras, I would say just get a Rolleiflex, Rolleicord, or Hasselblad.

 

A lot of your type of questions are really about pride of ownership, and not what kind of tool to use for the job. If that is the case, then you will be much happier with a non Japanese camera. Japanese cameras are reliable, capable, and very well made, but they have no personality, and the optics do not have an original signature. German or Russian cameras have personalities, and you will grow attached to them. This will not happen with any Japanese camera.

 

I have a Bronica GS-1, which I got when I had the same question as you have above. It is 6x7 but it does not have the horrible vibaration of the Pentax. It is extremely smooth and well made, and cheap. I bought the basic camera for around 220 bucks.

 

Still, given the choice, I'd take a Rollei or Hasselblad any day of teh week, even a Leica. If you want a camera forever, that's what you want.

[lukasz_grabun]

<p>So many answers - thanks!</p>

<p>The camera I consider to buy features, of course, MLU; I haven't mentioned it for it was obvious for me and subconsciously I regarded it obvious for you. Anyway, yes, there's mirror lock. The body is intact, two of three lenses have never been used. There's another seller who also offers intact Pentax 67 body with two lenses (105/2.8 and 150/2.8) for 60% of the price of the set I mentioned in the first post of this topic. Oh, and there's a grip in this cheaper set.</p>

<p>The photography I am interested in is, mostly, landscape and family portraits. Street photography I am not very fond of.</p>

<p>I am not very interested in obtaining 645 camera. I prefer square format to 6x4.5 and 67 is second I would pick as favourite. Also, consider, it's much easier to crop 645 from 67 than do the other way around :-)</p>

<p>I've done some research (OK, it's hard to label a simple google query a research but at least it sounds more seriously, doesn't it?). Pentax 67 is merely 3cm wider than E-1 I own and which was my camera of choice until I found out it's much more fun to shoot film. So it seems I won't have much problem holding the camera being used to somewhat bulky E-1.</p>

<p>@Claude: the camera I am most proud of is 30 year old OM-2n with 50mm Zuiko lens (on which I spilt a liquid of some kind and now it's covered - partially - with a sticky layer of dust bunnies). It is genuinely Japanese and owns as much personality as it gets. I've taken my <a href="http://grabun.com/zdjecia/2007/hiszpania/26.html">best picture</a> - so far - with this set and will never, as far as I can tell, let it go.</p>

[jean-louis llech]

IMO, neither the Pentax 67 nor the Bronica SQ-B. Handheld, the Pentax 67 (you did not say 67-II) is very heavy, and you will need the fastest speeds if you want to avoid vibrations.<br>

Using it handheld with the MLU function is very difficult, if not impossible. The MLU function can be used on a tripod to avoid vibrations, not handheld.<br>

Carry a Pentax 67 a whole day and your arms will be exhausted within few hours.<br>

The Pentax has the shape of a 24x36 SLR, but is not a 24x36 SLR. Its best use is on a sturdy tripod.<br>

When using the Pentax 67 in portrait position, you will rapidly understand that it is very difficult not to move the camera.<br>

I carefully examined both cameras when I decided to change my gear, several years ago. The Pentax is a good camera, but without a tripod, I fear that you will be disappointed.<br>

The SQ-B has been cancelled, as all other medium format cameras by Bronica. Why don't you look at other cameras, like Hasselblad or Rolleiflex ?<br>

Now, they can be found used for a much lower price than some years ago.<br>

And using a Hasselblad or a Rolleiflex handheld with the viewing hood is very comfortable and a real pleasure.<br>

[jean-louis llech]

A Pentax 67 with the prism and the 105mm is 2.2 kg. With the 55mm the weight is 2.5 kg and 2.37 kg with the 135mm. Very heavy.<br>

What follows is written on the Pentax users manual :

<i>"In general the shutter speed for a hand held camera is the inverse of the focal length. For example, 1/75 of second when the focal length is 75mm, and 1/150 of second when it is 150mm. A tripod should be used for shutter speeds slower than this".<br>

"When using an ultra-telephoto lens, a tripod that is heavier than the total weight of the camera and lens is recommended to avoid camera shake."</i><br>

This means nothing slower than 1/125s handheld with the 105mm. And consider that you will not always use your camera on a bright sunny day. With the Pentax, if you use a slow film, you cannot change the film holder to use a faster one.<br>

Read this review of the 67-II (which is a bit lighter than the 67) on <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax67ii.shtml">Luminous Landscape</a><br>

Otherwise, you could at least consider to use a good monopod.<br>

[.th]

sorry for drifting off topic (and you're probably well aware of this) but if you could live with a fixed 75/80mm, a tlr should be about a thousand times more handholdable than an slr in this size category... (a fine photo you linked to btw)

[mike_earussi1]

With the hand grip I have successfully hand held the Pentax 67 with the 45mm lens at 1/30 sec with no problem because it IS so heavy its weight stabilizes it. The problem arises when you want to use it on a tripod, the shutter kicks so much that it can't be used between 1/30 sec-1/2 sec without something to dampen the vibration. I had to use my 10 lb camera bag draped across the pentaprism before I could get good shots at those speeds.

[jean-louis llech]

I don't think that the weight is a solution. In fact, you understand that the vibrations are not outside the camera, but inside. The focal shutter is too large, and the vibrations simply occur when the shutter opens and closes.<br>

Even with the mirror locked up and with a hand grip and a cable release, these vibrations, so close to the film plane, cannot be avoided.<br>

[lukasz_grabun]

<p>I am sorry for all fuss. I've just made an impulse purchase and picked up a like-new 501CM body for a great price. Now all I need is a decent Planar and a film magazine.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

A system for life? That reminds me of one of my favorite California quotes:

 

"It's nice to have a permanent relationship for a while."

[.th]

<i>"I am sorry for all fuss. I've just made an impulse purchase and picked up a like-new 501CM body for a great price. Now all I need is a decent Planar and a film magazine."</i>

 

<br><br>

 

not to worry... now we can discuss to pieces wich model planars are better than others... etcetc...

 

<br><br>

 

,-)

[User_502260]

I am a Bronica user in the 6X45, 6X6 and 6X7 formats. For hand held use and for something that doesn't weigh a ton I think a Bronica SQ series camera with a waist level finder is very nice. if you can love with the laterally reversed image you have something whichis easy to hand hold with lenses up to 150mm. For eye-level use with a prism finder there is the Speed Grip which allows you to hold the camera comfortably. Any 6X7 camera will be more of a handful. There is the Mamiya 7 but that isn't an SLR. The Bronica will limit you to 1/500 but will also syhcn with flash at all speeds. The Bronica SQ equipment is also less expensive than the Pentax 6X7 or 67 stuff.

[benny_spinoza]

Well....now you really do have a camera for life! You should be able to get some good buys of lenses at keh.com. By the way...they are almost giving away the 160mm CB lens. It was not accepted in the market place because its MTF curves were not quite as good as the 150mm. But in my humble opinion, that was a lot of BS. It is a great lens, great for portraits and landscapes. The 100mm is supposed to be among the sharpest of Hasselblad lenses. You may also want to consider that, especially for landscapes. With all the wedding photographers dumping their Hasselblads for digital, times have never been better for buying used equipment.

 

The Hasselblad is good for handholding. Even with my 160mm, I can get good results handheld with 1/30 and higher, whether held at my waist or to my forehead. But when I can, I shoot 1/125 to be safe.

[marek_fogiel]

Lukasz,

MF - yes, sure! Handheld MF - yes, TLR's or Rangefinders like Mamiya or Fuji, but handheld MF with a mirror - hmmm forgeddaboutit if you want real quality. I'd go with the Pentax (for the lenses and the negative size) and a heavy tripod, else I would look for a nice TLR or RF. I use Hasselblads, but apart the SWC/M or these shots where I can go 1/500th of a sec, or do a MLU handholding, I consider this a tripod camera. There's no point to lug a lot of weight around to make fuzzy pictures, your Bessa will do better in 35mm.