"...indeed the K10D ... trumps the EOS 40D ..."

[renatoa]

Dpreview issued today the new Canon 40D review, and this paragraph caught my

attention:

 

"There isn't a single camera on the market which gains so much by shooting RAW

and using Adobe Camera RAW to convert its images than the K10D. The difference

is night and day and indeed the K10D in this comparison trumps the EOS 40D for

detail which hints perhaps that Pentax are using a sensor with a lighter anti-

alias filter (although if you look at some of the crops you can see some

demosaicing artifacts)."

 

Is about better results using RAW than JPEG (as expected...) and can be found

at the bottom of this page:

 

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos40d/page26.asp

[miserere_mei]

Thanks for that, Renato.

 

But every K10D owner knew this already...whether it was true or not ;-)

[chetan_dighe]

although if you look at some of the crops you can see some demosaicing artifacts)."

==============================================================

Sorry, but what is "demosaicing"?

[renatoa]

"A demosaicing algorithm is a digital image process used to interpolate a complete image from the partial raw data received from the color-filtered image sensor (via a color filter array or CFA) internal to many digital cameras in form of a matrix of colored pixels."

 

More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

[michael s.]

I saw that, too, Renato, and also saved it this a.m.<P>

 

Several times I've said that I <i>do not</i> recommend the K10D to those who plan to shoot only jpegs, and particularly jpegs only at default settings. It just doesn't do a great job as a default jpeg camera.<p>

 

But for those willing to shoot in raw and process a bit more, that's a different story altogether.

[14mm 2.8l]

Straight out of the camera in jpg modes on page 25, The 40D looks a tad better to me. Intersting note, this is a older 50mm 1.4 manual focus pentax lens up against current autofocus eos 50mm 1.4, so for the convience of autofocus function I'd say its a second plus for 40D. Odd that DPreview couldn't locate a 50mm FA 1.4 as B&H still sells them. I'd love to see a 35mm f2 Eos versus 35mm f2 FA comparision since everyone says wonderful things about the Pentax 35mm f2, specifically being tack sharp wide open.

 

"Canon EOS 40D vs. Pentax K10D

Camera settings:

 

Canon EOS 40D: Canon EF 50 mm F1.4 lens, Aperture Priority, ISO 100

JPEG Large/Fine, Manual WB, Default Parameters (Standard), Self-Timer (with MLU)

 

 

Pentax K10D: Pentax 50 mm F1.4 lens, Aperture Priority, ISO 100

JPEG Large/Fine, Manual WB, Default Parameters (Natural), Self-Timer (auto MLU)

 

 

The K10D demonstrates approximately the same levels of detail as the EOS 40D but simply isn't as sharp, at first glance it really looks as though the K10D image isn't properly in focus but as you will see on subsequent comparison pages the detail really is there it's simply that the camera's built-in image processor isn't extracting the detail (or is destroying it with heavy-handed noise reduction)."

 

Looking at price alone K10D wins, a handly $700 savings. I'd say in 5 months the 40D will drop $300 of its launch issue price of $1,299. In 5 months K10D will cost less also, likely close to half of issue so $500. At that point it would be a handy $500 difference and K10D would remain the winner of this body versus body battle. Canon's 10mp entry in a 12mp world will likely drop the issue price rapidly on 40D. Well, that and the sweet $2,199 deal on the 2005 era 12mp full frame 5D.

 

Lindy

[andrewg_ny]

Lindy: I don't know why you say DPReview isn't using FA50; the K10D images in the K10D review show FA50. At any rate, while a 35mm f/2 lens comparison might be interesting, I don't think it is the intent of DPReview to compare lenses. DPReview likely choose 50 f/1.4 for this purpose because pretty much all camera makers offer one at a reasonable price and they're all pretty darn good so it provides for a reasonably level playing field.

 

Even if it was older glass, I don't think it would matter much for tests of this kind.

 

As you are saying, the K10D continues to look good from a value perspective (and don't get me wrong, I love mine a lot)--though the 40D certainly offers some things that Pentax doesn't that will be important for many purchasers. One could easily make the argument that differentiating based on this level of image performance is splitting hairs and not real-world applicable. And while for me personally 6fps continuous shooting isn't very important, some will consider it so.

[danielleetaylor]

I read this post, then clicked the link expecting a clear difference.

 

Honestly, are you sure the crops didn't come from the same camera? I can't see a difference in detail or the demosaicing artifacts the reviewer claims to see. I even studied the full sized images. Based on this if you slipped a 40D image into the folder of a K10D user, or a K10D image into the folder of a 40D user, the user would never realize it.

[14mm 2.8l]

Cool Andrew, I missed the FA 50mm 1.4 lens' image. Thats a perfect comparision then, I was just going by description: "50mm 1.4".

 

This well respected review should do well to pump more K10D into more shooter's homes. Thus there will more people competeting for the better Pentax glass from the past.

 

Lindy

[miserere_mei]

"Thus there will more people competeting for the better Pentax glass from the past."

 

Is that a good think?

[14mm 2.8l]

Miserere, Oh sure why not? At least it means any pentax glass you buy used will likely go up in value over time. So the only long term costs to Pentax dslr system are the cameras alone. Buy a dslr after its been out for a year and minimize your entry fee costs there too.

 

Compared to Eos glass which can shed as much as 15% off its new B&H price over time, I could never sell used eos glass for more than original new price. But with pentax people do pay over full retail for used lenses.

 

I'll get a K10D when its ridiculously marked down for the wife. I'm satisfied with the samsung GX-1S pair so its not a need, instead its a want. I mean at sub $500 price point why would any pentax glass owner not have one or more in their kit? If pentax fails to offer a 12mp replacement then getting a flagship body for $500 is an incredible opportunity which may exist for some longer length of time, especially if you have glass inhand:

 

Why skip buying a K10D?

 

I haven't seen any solid rumors or pix of the sony cmos 12mp Pentax flagship replacement for K10D, have you or anybody? Please supply the link(s).

 

Me I'm sidelined on buying any spare dslrs while I watch the canon 5D approach $2,000. I have no reason to skip buying in at this $2k pricepoint. I won't get a K10D for the wife until I get a 5D for me. Then I'll see whats up with full frame imaging with all the mixmatch/otherbrand glass and assessories I bought over the past couple years to cobble/adapt into eos mount.

 

Lindy

[jerry thirsty]

Lindy Stone said:

 

"sure why not? At least it means any pentax glass you buy used will likely go up in value over time", and "with pentax people do pay over full retail for used lenses".

 

IMHO, this is true in some cases, but mostly only in the past two years or so, and only with respect to the really good lenses. Prior to Pentax's first dSLR, there were very few used lenses that commanded a price higher than the new price (the -A 135/1.8 might be an example). The number of Pentax film users was also pretty small, so sales of the premium -F and -FA series primes (such as the 300, 24, 100 macro, 85/1.4, etc) were in pretty small numbers. Then, Pentax got into digital and about the same time killed off a lot of their primes. When the newbies moved in, they discovered that the supply of -FA primes had vanished and demand for the older lenses shot up. The discontinuing of so many lenses combined with a sudden jump in the number of users is what pushed used prices on the classics through the roof. Pentax has in some respects remedied the situation with the release of the Limited series primes and a number of high quality zooms. Prices for some of the most desired primes appear to have stabilized and even dropped a bit from their peak. And assuming they do get around to releasing the rest of the lenses on the roadmap, I would expect demand and value of the legacy lenses to drop further.

 

So I would argue that the period when used Pentax lenses sold for more than new is coming to an end. There is one caveat though; if Pentax goes full frame and is slow to provide lenses to match, there may well be another feeding frenzy.

[miserere_mei]

Lindy, as someone who's recently joined the world of Pentax DSLR, it's not good for me that "old" lenses are being sold for stupid prices on eBay. I'm doing this photography thing on a budget, and right now I cannot afford any good, used glass thanks to Pinflation©. I probably would have had I bought a Canikon, but I liked the K10D too much :-)<br>

<br>

If I were in your position, I would probably skip the K10D. Nobody knows anything about January, but surely Pentax will come out with a new high-level body within the next year or so, and it looks like you can wait.

[mountainvisions]

Mis, you haven't spent enough time on here to know how long Lindy has been talking about abandoning Pentax. The dates come and go. He stays arund here. My thoughts are if there was a Pentax firesale, he'd be a big time buyer.

 

Anyway, way up at the top of here someone said to the effect "the K10D isn't a great JPEG camera".

 

Well I disagree, if sharpen properly it looks just fine.

 

But where I really disagree is with anyone shooting a DSLR and shooting JPEGS. Why buy a high end camera with fancy sensor converter and shoot in 8bit compressed JPEG.

 

I'll never understand that. If an image is important enough to take in the first place it should be important enough to take using the best format you have avail.

 

JPEG is designed for portability, not for quality.

[denys_meunier]

I agree with Justin,when I shoot an important situation,I shoot RAW like a wedding but for non important action,JPEG is fine and don't tell me Pentax is bad in JPEG file,I have a Nikon D200 and a K10D and beleive me my D200 its not better in JPEG compare the my K10D and I have a friend with a canon 30D,we shoot an artist show one night for a local event,we shoot JPEG and he did'nt get better than me,I use my K10D and at the same time,we shoot both 2 frames in RAW,same action,the K10D had better resolution,more clean,more sharpness,bright color and both default setting,i use the 16-50 2.8 and he use the the same range lens,so high quality lens both,,,,he still not beleive that,he's going crazy,,,he said,,,its only a Pentax,,,,so another,whos thinking Canon or Nikon its suppose to be better than Pentax,,,so he change is mind now.

[14mm 2.8l]

Pentax already had their firesale! They discontinued all those lenses everyone wants that they no longer make and yet Pentax still advertises as current on their website.

 

But I do agree, why shoot jpgs when you can shoot raw?

 

And its in raw where I can see the K10D clearly not equal to Eos 40D:

 

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos40d/page28.asp

 

Thats the cmos sensor advantage. The new sony A700 owners are chating up their new 12mp cmos sensor cameras now on forums. Unlike nikon, sony actually has A700 in owners hands already. And K10D not having a cmos sensor is a good reason to skip buying it and waiting for Pentax cmos dslr, if it gets issued. If 12mp cmos k mount is not roadmapped or issued in 2008 then at some price point I'll get the K10D just to see what the novelity of an antishake body is, especially with the glass I own. For me that price point is $460-$499, just above what I paid for my 2nd samsung 6mp dslr/lens kit combo. I still love my samsung k mount dslrs, so I'd also be interested in any 12mp cmos offering Samsung might issue.

 

Camera Rep Demodays is 1 month away so I'll have a better handle on whats up with Pentax and Samsung since Hoya's buyout of Pentax Corporation. I've been told my region's one pentax rep now covers a 15 State area in USA so maybe I won't even see a Pentax Rep with lenses to consider and handle this time?

 

Lindy

[14mm 2.8l]

Denys, you are using a $900 pentax lens and your canon friend is using which canon made eos lens?

[denys_meunier]

Its a 17-55 2.8 IS USM

[mountainvisions]

Actually Lindy, you are misreading. The K10D image sensor is suprisingly on par with the 40D considering 1) canon makes there own sensors which gives them a head start on processing design 2) the 40D is 1 year newer.

 

Now why do I call you a fanboy? The K10D is on par and 12 months older than the 40D and you tell use the 40D blows it away.

 

One day I'll figure out where you live...15 states is a lot ground, gotta be northeast. You drive a subaru (you told us about this some time ago on a rant), gotta be north east. Am I close?

 

Now I just have to figure out what state has a 500,000 population city but isn't closer to a larger city. I'm thinking Pittsburgh or Cleveland...

 

I'm working on it.

[14mm 2.8l]

Justin, why the fixation with where I live? Should I expect a visit from you? Since you continue to bring up my residence, I am curious, what does "Caney23" mean? Continuing on this curious dialogue, just how many times did your AF 2.8 pro tokina telephoto zoom get wet from rain and or boat trips anyways? Good Luck with your move into Nikon system, quality stuff and abundant glass options. I still think a brand new D300 is your best option and likely less than 30 days away from buyable.

 

Anyways, from what I've read 40D is about the same as 30D on cmos sensor image quality so in a way the 40D is contemporary to 30D except 40D rattles off 6.5 frames per second and it has a 3 inch monitor. The real difference between Pentax compared to canon is a buyable, obtainable "system" filled catalogue of glass available for purchase. I picked up one eos and one pentax item today locally. I must admit I continue to buy into both systems even though I only own K Mount dslrs (at the moment).

 

Lindy

[14mm 2.8l]

Ah, 17-55 2.8 IS Denys, thanks. I'll read up on it. The only 1.6x crop canon lens I am familiar with is 10-22mm. I agree though thats eos lens should have been a failrly good match to your pentax except for less of a wide angle perspective. Like 28mm eos to your 24mm pentax. Thats a nice difference if you like wide angles. I origianally wanted a 40D due to video recording, which i confused with another canon: G9, and the fact that pentax aperture ring glass is easily adaptable to 1.6x eos mounts. Instead I'll wait and watch the 5D price drops and hunt around for impossible to find pentax lenses at 2002 or earlier prices. 40D dropped off my radar, digital video recording would have sealed the deal for me. But now eos full frame digital 5D at ever better pricing has moved to my #1 equiptment buying slot.

 

Lindy

[john_carter9]

Hi everyone. new photographer here. while I don't get all technical. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but the K10D was one of the biggest wastes of money I've ever done. I can capture better photos with my Point&Shoot Olympus. I've owned the 40D since October, and packed it around Africa with me, it performed flawlessly. It's a beautiful camera, and I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the K10D can outperform a Canon, well ignorance is bliss :)<div></div>