Missing Formal Picures

[matt_m8]

Looking for some opinions...I received my wedding photos from the photographer

after about 3-4 weeks as expected and was given a letter listing what was

contained. They try to always give something extra and gave us many extra

photos and a picture book....However....there was no formal photos included,

that means nothing with wedding party together, parents, family or even bride

and groom. There were only pictures of the wedding ceremony and reception...I

contacted the photographer and was then finally told they didn't have those

pictures because of a malfunction... Now we had asked for these shots

specifically and we were told no shots would be guaranteed but shouldn't I

expect some type of refund?

 

When I asked about a refund I was told they would look at what the costs were

and get back to me? After about a week, they called back and said that the

cost of doing the editing of and for the extra photos and book was such and

such so they would give me a refund of $50. I didn't feel that is right and

said something. We feel that the "extra photos" are not at the same par as the

others and think it adds no real value (the picture book is nice). I had

originally asked for half (most who hear our store are surprised we paid at all)

of our money back and $50 is just dumb.

 

Am I way off base? What are those photos worth? Legal advice? Any Advice?

 

Thanks for reading.

[jana w.]

Hi Matt,

Sorry about your photographer issues. I know it stinks to have to go through this! May I ask what the photographer charged and how much experience they had? Yes, $50 is very little to compensate for no formal photos. It sounds like the photographer did try to make up for the error with the extras but it wasn't what you desired. Is there ANY salvaging the images even if the are way over/under exposed? If there isn't, the only option is to do a re-shoot at the photographers cost for the bride's hair and makeup and for your tux/suit rental. Hopefully close family isn't far away so they can be involved in the photos. They may not be willing to budge on a refund (money isn't really what you wanted in the first place, it was the actual photos, right??) Even though it is a huge pain to get all dressed up again, this may be the only option to get those photos. OH, and ask to see the photos on the camera before the photographer leaves the shoot. Most photographers don't like to show unedited pics but at least you can see if they are usable! Hope this helps!

[matt_m8]

We were originally charged $700-800 and the photographers do have experience, but the photos are totally lost. We would be willing to do a reshoot, but my side of the family and wedding party are over 1,000 miles aways so they would be missing. But sides I think the cost to the photographer for a reshoot (you were saying the photographer would pay right?) would be more then just giving us a refund of half.

[craig_shearman1]

An experienced professional simply wouldn't allow this to happen. When using multiple camera bodies, lenses, flash units, rolls of film (or digital memory cards) it's almost unbelievable that ALL formals would be missing. Some maybe, but not all. And if it did happen, he/she would first offer to re-state and reshoot as suggested by Jana. Bringing in family and friends if they are from out of town might not be possible. But certainly the formals of the bride and groom could be easily restaged in the studio. Parents and siblings are usually the next most important pictures to have, followed by bridal party. Key issue is how nearby do they live or how often are they in town. But the bottom line may be what is in your contract. If it says the photographer is not responsible for photos missed because of malfunctions/acts of God/etc., then his/her willingness to make things right may be all you have to go on.

[fotografz]

"An experienced professional simply wouldn't allow this to happen."

 

But it can, and does happen. If it didn't, no one would need a hold harmless clause in their

contract.

 

IMHO, the photographer should be forthcoming with exactly what happened to have lost all

of the formal images. Malfunctions and acts of God are one thing, bad practice is another.

[stephen dohring]

Hi Matt - my opinion is $700-$800 is dirt cheap and you are not really dealling with real professionals at that price - no way. If it was a company with different photographers you are now dealing with the shooter who hardly made $200-$300 of that. I am sure this photographer is not a full time pro and it is unfortunate as you probably thought their website looked good but you did not really understand why most other photographers are charging well in the 1.8 to 2.5K range. They would not have screwed up you shots. I bet there was no malfuntion but an inexperienced mistake. Take the $50.00 I am sure they don't have anything left by now, but educate your friends in the future to spend the money on the most important thing - the reflection on future memories of such a special day.

[richard_beisigl]

Matt,

I know how you feel; I did a wedding where unknown to me the shutter in the lens went bad, and I only got some of the pictures.

Here is what I did; I asked the B&G to find out if any of their family members or their guests had taken any "informal" formal shots of the wedding party. And if so, please let me have the negatives so I could make prints from them AT NO COST to the B&G.

You ay be suprised ust ow many people will take pictures of all the wedding party.

I hope you get this resolved in your favor.

Richard B. California

[conraderb]

Matt - I'm sorry to hear about this.

 

Have you asked for more information about what went wrong? If they were shooting film, a malfunction is possible that they wouldn't know about until later. With digital - they probably would have noticed.

 

If the POST formal pictures look good, then I suspect that someone messed up the settings on the formals. I would ask for more details on what went wrong.

 

$50 is nothing. Maybe half is more like it.

[elnoralouisa]

Happened to me 15 years ago. Our formals at the reception were totally lost. The film went bad. Our photographer gave us all our proofs free. Now think about that. If you are selling proofs, the retail value was alot, but if you figure that wholesale cost is very small, and the fact that they were already printed, I guess that means the photographer was out absolutely nothing. Oh well, live and learn.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

If they already gave you extra photos and a book (as extra) it sounds to me like they've made a good faith effort with the $50. By the time you pay 2 photographers for their time/effort and the actual cost to the studio, I suspect that the profit margin on the whole job isn't much more than $50. Depending on the quality of the photo book it could easily be half of the entire wedding fee.

 

What is the value of the missing photos? Since you didn't pay that much for the entire coverage of the wedding and the reception, sounds like it would be a small fraction of the $700-800. Personally, I'd be more disappointed about the lack of images rather than the size of the refund.

[jaimie blue]

Truthfully if it was me and I was the photographer I would give you at least half off because I would feel responsible as the photographer. Unfortunately "nightmare" things do happen and you seem really resonable, and I would tell the photographer that $50.00 is not acceptable. I do not care how much the wedding was you should get a better compensation then $50.00.

[sprouty]

This is not meant to sound mean, but are they really important? I've been married 20 years, and I don't think I've ever looked at formal. If the candids were great I think that's what you'll be reminiscing over years from now. I say ask for as many as you can get and don't sweat the formals.

[picturesque]

You need to look at the contract you signed. If indeed there is a clause about no guarantees on any specfic image(s), you are basically out of luck re pursuing any refund based on breach of contract--even though most wedding photographers and most clients expect to shoot and expect to receive formals of some kind.

 

I would say that your photographer should have discussed this issue honestly with you first and offered and negotiated compensation of some kind--whether refund or product--before actually giving you extras. I see their throwing extras into your package as an attempt to deflect your possible anger and legal action in this matter. Now that you accepted the extras, it makes them look better should you decide to take legal action, and as you found out, they can point to the retail price of those extras (different from what they actually paid) to count as compensation.

 

If you do decide to take legal action, it will be based on what is considered standard practice re producing formals and not on breach of contract. I believe you stand a reasonable chance of prevailing, given that most people (and probably a small claims court judge) will agree that there should be at least one formal image of the bride and groom together at the very least, if not the wedding party and immediate families (or compensation is due). These form the very basis of what is commonly considered wedding photography coverage--even photojournalistic coverages.

 

Even so, I doubt that you will be able to collect half of the total, even if the small claims court judge were inclined to award that to you, plus the aggravation of going through the process would not be worth it, in my mind. I suggest you decide upon a reasonable compensation that does not involve refunds directly, such as a re-do photo session of just you and your wife. Ask that the photographer make the arrangements with the church or ceremony location, and that he provide a reasonable (not full wedding) bouquet for your wife, as well as pay for your tux rental. If you don't ask for the most expensive flowers, make-up and hair re-dos, you will have much better luck. You might include whomever can make it to the session as well, if that makes any sense.

 

Or, ask for a free family photo session (with x reprints/enlargements), the next time most of your relatives are in town. Again--if you don't propose to take the photographer for everything you can get, you may actually get something valuable to you and in proportion to the photographer's error (even if it was a malfunction).

[savagesax]

I'm not saying much about contracts as I totally agree with Marc. Things do and will go wrong. Any photographer thats been shooting for a few years will experience some sort of screw up, hopefully only minor.

 

I don't feel $50 is a fair refund. To me the key to this situation is no formal photos. Lets face it, the photographer blew/wrecked the wedding. Since the photographer missed the main and perhaps the most important shots, a judge in a small claims court may honor a complete refund, maybe not. But surely more then $50. For wedding photographers this may seem harsh, but I feel it's fair and many will probably disagree. Our studios would give a complete refund for such a severe error and offer to retake whatever photos we could. Also offer to take a family portrait the next time everyone got together for a reunion or something.

 

Almost all of our work is from referrals, so we sure do not want to mess up reputations. We still don't have a website yet we still average 2 to 4 weddings, events, parties, a weekend. Not long ago we had a referral from a wedding, and the lady was a school teacher. We did a school dance and photo yearbook pics, we did instant prints, and raked in about $15,000 profit for 5 hours of work. It was a big school! Point is whats $700 when you may get a good referral for being fair, honest, and having good business practices.

 

So Matt, call the photographer back, tell him what you want, use the word referals; you have lots of single friends getting married, and see what happens. If your requests are not met, try small claims court, write a letter to your local newspaper, and bad mouth this studio as much as you can.

[colinsouthern]

As I see it, even if the parties were re-assembled and that portion re-shot, it's still not the same. The moment has passed, and there's no way to get it back.

 

Despite contract clauses, I feel that there is a professional/moral responsibility that rests with photographers - one that no contract can ever really absolve us from.

 

Assuming that this was also a once-in-a-lifetime accident from a professional whom has taken all pecautions possible, my approach would have been:

 

(a) Be honest about what happened

 

(b) Offer to reshoot

 

© Give as much as you can from what you've got

 

(d) Refund ALL monies.

 

Some may disagree with (d) especially, but in my opinion photographers are placed in a position of trust and on this occasion that trust has been broken - and in such a situation they may have a legal obligation to get paid, but certainly not a moral one (even though it could well have been something outside of their control).

 

My approach to life has always been to try and put the customer's experience, thoughts and feelings first (unfortunately I don't always achieve that, but that's always the standard I set) - so far it's worked very well for me (20+ years in business and still doing well).

[buffdr_raz1]

What a bummer. This is the reason why I have my assistant download all of my CF cards on the laptop after the formals and I take 5 min to review them before we leave the location. I think the formals are the most important shots! If for some reason I was to lose the shots (like crashing the car and having my equipment and laptop burn)I will refund ALL the money without question. I would also shoot the formals again at a later date if possible. Also I will pay for the make-up and tux rentals for the B&G only. Basically make EVERY effort to make them happy. v/r Buffdr

[sprouty]

<I>"Lets face it, the photographer blew/wrecked the wedding.</I>

<P>

Matt I truly hope the memory of your wedding isn't tainted by suggestions like this.

<P>

Nadine's advice is spot on, read the last paragraph and really think about how to turn this into something positive.

[dawn_kelly]

They should of been upfront with you in the first place, instead of trying to make it up to you without you knowing about it. When the issue was discovered, call you and tell you what happened, and then a deal could have been worked out. Everyone knows that things happen, it is a fact of life. Typically, if you are up front about it, then things can be worked out fairly.

[john_h.1]

"If indeed there is a clause about no guarantees on any specfic image(s), you are basically out of luck re pursuing any refund based on breach of contract--even though most wedding photographers and most clients expect to shoot and expect to receive formals of some kind."

 

A no guarantee clause will provide protection to a photographer to some extent. At the extreme a photographer may fail to secure even one shot of a wedding or the vast majority. The prospects of a court allowing the photographer to weild the no guarantee shield in such a situation is about nil. Its almost an illusory contract in that scenerio. Its like saying I will provide you with pictures unless I don't. It won't fly. Some professional services may be expected to result in failure. A no guarantee cluse for those services will likely be upheld fully. Wedding photography does not have a high total failure occurance.

 

Formals are frequently considered essential. To lose there entire formal session is huge. I can easily see a small claims judge finding that there was a substantial failure of performance in such a situation and ruling that a substantial refund be given despite the no guarantee clause.

 

I do think the idea to see about another type of shoot being done is worth considering.

[doug_axford1]

I think Dawn hit it on the head. You're dealing with someone who needs more experience both in business and photography but, you also are paying much less than a good pro would charge.

 

The normal 'no guarantee' clause is seriously in question here. Losing a few shots is one thing, losing all of one sequence is another. However, we don't know what happened. If it was an accident, you're out of luck. If it was something a normal pro should/could have avoided, then you should be able to sue, clause or no clause.

 

Back in the film days, I lost all formal shots off one roll and did everything possible to make sure the B&G were happy.

 

I would make an appointment and talk to the photographer/owner in person. If you are fair you should get a solution that you are satisfied with. If they refuse, then I'd contact a lawyer. Getting advice on a forum is no substitute for proper legal advice.

 

Bad things can & do happen to even the most experienced photographers. Good luck.

[jimstrutz]

They should offer you a refund of half the price paid, or if you prefer, they should re-shot or do some other portrait session. They should have told you up front and made the offer right away, but were hoping you would ignore their error. This is just shoddy business practice. Just because they won't make a profit on this wedding, or might even take a loss on it, is not a good reason to not make it right.

 

Make sure everyone you know hears about them, and make sure they know you are the one that will be trashing them for cause. Tell them you will put up flyers around town naming them and what they did and didn't do. If you report the honest facts they can't sue for slander. If you don't make this sting they will never learn.

[kiva]

Ouch! Sorry that happened Matt.

 

If you live close to central ohio and want to get the group of people together I'll take the photo and give the high resolution image files to you at no cost for the time/effort(you pay my travel expense is all).

 

btw, one of our most professional photographers has had this happen and he went above and beyond to make it up to the couple to the tune of a huge monetary lose; he paid to have the group gather together and took all the photos in a reenactment, way cool and professional.

 

Your photographer "could" pay the expenses of getting you all together and taking the photos but that type of professionalism is a bit rare ... most contracts pretty much say it's a no fault and you're out of luck. Do you live in Ohio and can you gather the people together? Nothing is impossible ... bet there's someone here that would help you out if you're in another state and willing to do the work/expense it would take to re-gather the people and dress them properly. That would be a very interesting day and a Wonderful Story to tell for years to come!

[savagesax]

sp, "Lets face it, the photographer blew/wrecked the wedding."

 

Referring to the photos. Harsh words? Too strong? Probably, we are all human and have assorted standards. Mine happen to be "Achieve a standard of Pride and Excellence." Thats our 2 studios goal, whether we rich it or not it's a goal we believe in. I still believe the photogragher wrecked the formals and should do whatever it takes to fix the situation.

 

Matt, kindly think of the future years to come, not just the present situation. My opinion, for whatever it's worth, photo's are often a lasting lifetime of dreams. Use this, as part of your dealings with your photographer and judge if needed.

 

You can read a past post of mine where the grandmother died just after the wedding. I got the needed shots of the grandmother and the bride. When the bride saw the pics after the wedding she bursted into tears and was greatful of this one particular photo. The photo was a closeup of the grandmothers hand holding the brides hand on the brides shoulder. A symbol of youth and age. That was my thought when I took the shot. Thats the shot that caused the tears, even though there were other formal shots of the grandmother as well. The photo made the front cover of a local magazine based on the aging.

 

What if these people never get together again? My family is all gone, parents, grandparents, and only 3 are left. I treasure the wedding shots with my mother and father.

 

I'm sure glad to see other pro photographers take the point of view that they should do whatever it takes to try and get, recreate the photos. Regardless of the contract. This makes me smile with delight! Way to run an excellent studio and be so respectful and proud of your clients and your work.

[sprouty]

Bob, your comments reflect a high level of professionalism. I was merely suggesting that, in the grand scheme of things, this may not be a big deal. And the idea that the entire wedding was ruined was perhaps not the healthiest attitude to take.

 

I'd like to think that in the future when Matt looks at his wedding photo's all he thinks about is how much fun he had and not the ten images he's missing.

[petemillis]

Can't stand our wedding photos - they live in the deepest darkest recesses of a cupboard! But the memories of the day 12 years ago are still there 100%. The day won't be lost even if the photos of a part of it are. I like Dawn's sugestion - another different shoot including a few prints, with the option to buy some extras. Could go well in the photographer's favour. How about some pictures when you celebrate your first wedding anniversary, or when you have a baby or something? Would be worth much more than half of $700 or shots from a recreated wedding!