Professional opinion of amateur wedding photographers

[matt_needham]

As long as they aren't getting in my way or keeping me from doing my job, and so far no one really has, I've got no problem with guest photographers. I enjoy photographing weddings, and it doesn't surprise me that others do too. In early meetings with the B & G I explain potential problems with guest photogs such as during the posed photos subjects looking at other cameras or causing other distractions. We discuss ways to deal with it. Most couples want to keep it moving along, and discourage guest photographers when they are slowing things down. If the B & G have a friend or relative that's an enthusiast I offer to let them assist me, or at least coordinate some of the photography. If I have any free time I enjoy discussing photography with interested guests. I have no worries that someone may steal my shot, because I already stole it from some other photographer's website or artist's portfolio. I'm sure the couple get some wonderful wedding photos from guests and relatives, but they don't regret hiring a pro.

[roseberry guitars]

I've never commented on this forum before but check up every so often to see what you bunch are up to. I found this an interesting discussion and have a little story that might be of interest.

 

A couple years ago we went to Rome, Italy for the wedding of my wife's cousin. They had hired a Professional photographer who was very efficent, very nice fellow and supposedly one of the best at his craft in that part of the city.

 

However, at the church there was an additional fellow and his assistant bustling about taking photos of the guests arriving, the bride and father arriving, the groom, shots inside the church, the ceremony,...well you get the drift, doing all the stuff the hired photographer does at the church. When I enquired about this second fellow I was told that this was a normal thing in Rome. The second fellow was not hired by the wedding party nor anyone else associated with the wedding. There are photographers that make a living "chasing weddings". They get the up-coming wedding roster from the churches and away they go. They take all the photos they can and then as the church is being emptied they sell their work to all those that will buy. I kept an eye on him and his asistant and I have to say most people in the party of over fifty couples bought the two photo package. For about $14.00 you got this nice folder (well, not that nice!) with a 8x10 photo of the bride and groom on one side and on the opposite page a same size photo of yourself.

 

(A side note here. The location of the formal photos was kept as a very close secret between the wedding photographer, his assistant and the bride/groom. Even the brides maids and best man did not know until they got to where they were going. To stop the second fellow from horning in I'm guessing.)

 

At first I wasn't going to purchase the photo package. Not being a professional but I do believe in maintaining some sort of ethics. But as the hired photographer seemed to accept it as a fact of life I finally conceeded defeat and dished out the cash. "When in Rome..." and all that.

 

Back in Canada I gave the photo of the bride and groom to an uncle that couldn't get to the wedding and the photo of my wife and I to my mom. I hope that makes up a little of the lost karma.

 

So if my calculations are even close the hired photographer lost between $500 and $700 to that fellow with the mobile lab. I wonder what the hired photographer really thought of it all. Maybe nothing, maybe "it's the way it is"...maybe something we cannot print in a family forum!

 

So a little different than a few dozen relatives with point and shoots. Or not....

[karina_a]

Hi Ben, it is good you stayed out of the way, but I agree about not shooting formals. My husband and I shoot lots of pics at all weddings we go to, as we are trying to build a portfolio and learn. We never take pics of family formals or anything the pro has set up, and we never follow the pro when he takes the bride and groom off for couple pics (I have seen many people do this, and I know I would find it more than annoying if I were the pro, so I don't do it). There are so many opportunities to shoot without doing this, and formals where the people are looking at the pro and not your lens aren't that great to get anyway. And having been the primary shooter in 2 weddings, I know how stressful it is trying to ensure everyone's eyes are on you, and how little time you have to make that happen, that I just wouldn't do it (I did it once from way over on the side, but afterwards felt uncomfortable that I had).

 

I also always talk to the pro beforehand and reassure them that I will stay out of the way and not copy their poses, and that they should tell me to get out of the way or stop if they need to. Having done that, it means that we have met some lovely pros who have been very helpful to us, given us great advice, offered us a back up job; and we in turn have referred a number of them to family and friends where they got the job. It is possible to make it work for everyone. But we really have been amazed how lovely they are if you respect them and the job they need to do.

 

While they are shooting the formals, there are many more interesting things to shoot anyway - detail shots, family and friend interactions, people catching up for the first time in years, emotions etc. The photographer would probably prefer to be shooting those than family formals anyway. And you can offer the couple those shots - which they will really appreciate because they won't have seen any of it happen, and the pro won't have gotten it. Plus if the pro isn't going to the grooms house (or even sometimes they don't go to the brides house) in the morning - you can offer to do that; and if the pro goes home early in the reception, then you can shoot the rest of the reception.

 

I always ask the Bride to speak to the pro before the wedding and say that we will be mostly taking family and friend candid shots and will stay out of their way (they often don't have time to take lots of family and friend candids), and ask how they feel about it, or what they would prefer. They are often very happy for us to do table and mingling shots etc, because they hate doing them. It is often a good chance to get the bride and groom hugging friends and family - which can be great emotional shots, that will be really appreciated.

 

There are so many opportunities to shoot where you won't just be tailing someone. We still manage to get pics of B&G they are just more PJ, and we take them when the pro hasn't set them up, and usually when they are doing something somewhere else. I try to be careful not to set much up with the B@G either (unless it is helpful to them - for example: a shot they want that the pro won't be there to get) because they can get exhausted with being available for shots, and have so many other commitments during the day - so PJ works well.

 

Anyway - sounds like you know to stay out of the way, which is brilliant - but I would extend that to looking for shots elsewhere when they are shooting formals. And well done for asking.

 

Warm regards.

[jeffrey_blake_adams]

It just slows things down, steals from the Bride's actual time with her professional, whilst waiting for all eyes to come back to the paid for pro. Its a shame, but people can't help themselves. I've seen wedding guests jump up in the middle of the cereomny where the chruch forbids shooting during the ceremony, stand there in the pew and shoot away. One officiant even stopped to wait. We deal with it, I usually smile and ask them to go first, get their shot, and then when they are done, allow me to create the images the family has already paid for. :) J

[William Michael]

>>> I encourage guests to work with me during formals. I'll take my shot, and then I'll step out of the way and let them have theirs, time permitting. That way, everybody can have the group's attention. If I cannot produce a better print than the guests, then I don't deserve that particular print sale. <<< (EM)

 

(Aside)

 

Eric: This viewpoint is understood, and I have on occasion used it, for one or two arrangements outside the Church doors.

 

I used it much more in the 1980`s and 1990`s, and at that time would agree 100% with your last sentence, which appears to be the premise of your view.

 

However, would you retain your view, if Uncle Fred arrived next Saturday with a 645, 6x7, Canon 1 series, or similar, and had his two kids act as lighting stands with remote dual flashes?

 

I pose the question, because such is a reality.

 

Factors include: working in a large city, affluent clients, and the availability and low cost of excellent photographic equipment; more leisure time for playing photography.

 

25% of studio`s client bases I know, have an Uncle Fred similar to that described. And 25% of those Uncle Fred`s are quite arrogant, and purposely attempt to lean on that formal session.

 

Irrespective of whether the business is based on print sales, or not and irrespective of what distraction or annoyance there might be whilst performing the Formal work, in what is usually a very short time frame: if a Professional Photographer as part of their engagement sees fit, or is requested, to supply controlled portrait work, the preparation and resultant pose is a most integral part of the final artistic work, the rights of which should be protected.

 

There are many aspects which define a Professional: practical training and experience, technical and theoretical knowledge, high quality equipment and the ability to use it, and the post production, or to know a third party do it: all these things go to making the Formal Portraits look `Professional`, and differentiate them from `happy snaps`.

 

Sophisticated Photographic Technology is so (relatively) cheap; quality labs are plentiful; and mail order printing is simple and cheap: whilst I would be agreeing with your point of view in 1980 and 1990, I cannot in 2007.

 

WW

[scottl1]

I've been a guest and a hired shooter as many of you have been. As a guest at one wedding, when I was just getting started, the pro came over to me during the reception and told me that I needed to get a flash (I was using the on camera flash). He then went on to explain why. Nice guy. The couple of weddings that I've been hired to shoot, I've gladly stepped aside after I've gotten the picture to let grandma get her shot. It goes along way in helping people help you throughout the event.

 

Regards,

Scott

[scottl1]

And since you can't be everywhere and see everything, I've seen guests taking pictures of some good shots where I'll wonder over and also get a picture of something happening.

[bruce_stenman1]

Ben,

 

It really depends on how and when you got your 500 images. I shoot most of the time with a second photographer. While I am doing the formals and group shots they are photographing the reception. If I am shooting alone, only the guests are photographing each other.

 

During the first dances I am mostly photographing the couple's expressions and taking some shots that show then with their guest looking on. A second photographer would either be getting shots from the other side (if there is not a videograper in the way) or getting shots of the couple's family members.

 

At the end of the day when I shoot with a second photographer they are in a most 3 of my frames out of over 2000 shots. That is because we not only take care to keep each other out of our frames we also take care not to be in the others frame. Easier said than done.

 

When a guest is taking a picture of something happening I will go somewhere else to get the spontaneous unposed shots for the couple and their family. The B&G may get the pictures that the guest has taken, and they may be correctly exposed without a lot of flash, or they may not. That is why couples pay for a pro to come.

 

The digital P&S users actually cause more problems because most people have gotten in the habit of using the LCD to frame the subject, then take the shot, and then want to stand and look at the resulting image. So instead of a film camera where the guest takes 10 seconds to get the shot and then gets out of the way, they may be standing there for several minutes and the moment has long since passed before they get out of the way.

 

So the best advice I can give is to stay out of the photographer's way and go to where they are not as this really adds to what the couple and their families will have at the end of the day.

[joann]

It really does impare the professional's job and, perhaps, income, when family members come in and create groups and photograph yours. I was friends---our relationship is on the rocks at the moment--- with a recent groom's grandmother. Grandma came with her DSLR and flash bracket and started creating groups and photographing them. The couple sent her the link to their online proofs. Grandma didn't hire me, the bride did but grandma felt it her duty write me and tell me what was wrong I did wrong. Coming from someone who never takes her camera out of "P" mode, it was infuriating. Now I'm in great fear that her photos actually came out better than mine... :)

[obi-wan-yj]

Sorry I haven't replied back sooner. I've been traveling home from the wedding since I first posted this. I really appreciate all the responses from you folks. You've mentioned somethings I hadn't thought of, but overall, it sounds like I was OK with what I was doing. However, the next time I'm in that situation (I still have one unmarried sibling), I'll be sure to ask the prof's opinion first. Here's some answers to a few of the questions that were posted.

 

My brother, the groom, is a semi-pro photographer (lives in Nashville & shoots album covers as a side job). He's the main reason I got into photography in the first place, and we discuss camera stuff almost every time we talk. He didn't explicitly ask me to take photos, but if I'd shown up without my camera, he probably would have sent me home for it. He even had his own 10D and 550EX flash hanging from his neck throughout the entire rehearsal. I'll probably just give him my pictures on a DVD (or two) rather than trying to print anything.

 

Since my son was the ring bearer, I had to show up early for the entire formal photo session anyway. I did take numerous photos during the formals, but never over the prof's shoulder or from her spot. My main goal was to capture candids of the event, so most of my photos of her poses were either from a different angle or contained her in the shot posing people. Much of the wedding party & family were milling around watching, so I was standing in that crowd most of the time. I'm pretty sure I was far enough off so as not to distract the eyes of any of her subjects. I only posed two shots on my own all day -- one of my two kids (ring bearer & his sister), and one in the men's dressing room where the prof wasn't allowed.

 

I didn't touch my camera during the ceremony, leaving that job to the prof. I was seated in the front row, so it would have been awkward anyway. However, I was still dying to grab my 135mm lens and capture the antics of the flower girl, who was standing off to the far side where the prof couldn't see her...

 

Of the 500 I took, I'll be happy if 200 are keepers. I haven't taken the time to look through them yet. I like to tinker with old, manual lenses (I used two 40-yr-old Pentax Super-Takumars in addition to a new AF lens), and I prefer natural light to flash photography (it was an outdoor evening wedding), so I'm sure I'll delete at least half of those photos based purely on technical problems. I use a Canon XTi/400D body (their newest low-end DSLR). There's a good reason that I don't do this for a living. Although I really enjoy photography, I'm much better at programming computers than I'll ever be at photography. I'm sure the quality of what I shot won't threaten the prof.

 

As for enjoying myself at the event rather the acting as a PJ, that's a long story that I won't bore you with. Basically, the event was 800 miles from home, so the only people I knew were the couple, my parents, and my wife & kids. I probably wouldn't have attended at all if my son wasn't in the wedding party.

[kiva]

ben, idea from afar:

 

create a dvd slideshow with music for him.

 

the combo of music and photo is truly unique and well loved by couples.