Medium Format on the cheap?

[jnovek]

Hi! I'm interested in getting into MF on the cheap (say, less than a hundred

bucks ready to shoot)... 6x9 looks most inviting to me, but I have an open mind.

I'm not picky about camera style; TLRs, folders and rangefinders are all fair

game. If "cheap" "good" and "lightweight" are three possible attributes that a

camera can have, I would pick cheap and good... I am willing to lug around a

massive, quirky camera if it takes decent pictures.

 

Before anyone asks: yes, I am equipped to develop and print 120/220. :-)

 

Thanks!

 

Jason

[shambrick007]

<a href = "http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/moskva5/">Moskva 5</a> <p>http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=506065

[ben_ballard]

I bought a usable Minolta Autocord for $150 on eBay. It's a lot of fun. The shutter is way too slow when set slower than 1/15th, but ok above that, and I haven't seen the need for a CLA yet since it's just something for fun. You can probably find usable Autocords and Yashicamats in your price range. Not perfect, but usable.

 

There are plenty of folders on eBay for less, but most likely because they are ancient and don't work. You might get lucky. You can also probably find a 4x5 press camera in that range, but it will be one that's been in a closet for decades and doesn't have a 6x9 back. A press camera in good working condition with a 6x9 back and a good lens is probably more like $300+.

[steve_levine]

Right now prices are so low, I'd suggest a used MF SLR. Folders and TLR's are fun, but they can be a pain in the backside too.

[h._p.]

So, which MF SLRs are "less than a hundred bucks ready to shoot"?

[dave_cheng1]

Jason, I did what you are thinking of doing to entering MF with less than $100 but more than 10 years ago. I bought a Rolleicord for about

$100 to get started. You will grow your addiction to MF from there. I am now $5k (or more) into MF. Lots of fun. Lots of beautiful images. A Rolleicord can be had for $100 still today on eBay. Very good quality camera and decent lens. Light weight and classy. Good luck.

[michael_gilday]

Keep an eye out for a Koni-Omega Rapid or a Rapid Omega rangefinder; in "good user" condition they're frequently found for $100 or less, and make an excellent introduction to MF, as they're simple and nigh-indestructible. Their learning curve is generally a lot less steep than, say, a 120 folder, and the 6x7 format is a nice medium ground between the real-estate of a 6x9 image and the 6x6 square shot by most medium-format SLRs and TLRs.

 

TLRs, in particular, are very much an acquired taste, and I know a couple people who just didn't "get on with" their Yashicamat, Rolleicord, C330, or whatever, and gave up on MF entirely after the experience, which is a shame...

[alvin_hear]

<a href="http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/tlr.htm">Ricoh Diacord TLR !</a>

[jimmy_english]

The correct answer is:

 

"seller guarantees shutter speeds accurate, lens free from defect, and film transport works properly".

 

You can get good results from most MF cameras.

[robbie_caswell]

Spend a bit more for real quality and less issues.

 

There is a good ETRS system in the classifieds for $250 I nearly bought. Insanely cheap for a great system.

 

If I hadn't had my heart set on a 6X6 I wouldn't have thought twice.

[peter_schauss1]

I started in medium format with a Yashica A (Yashikor lens) for $38. I bought it from a local used camera store so I was able to verify that the lens was clean and all of the shutter speeds at least worked.

[skygzr]

KEH has a complete Bronica ETRSi in BGN condition for $189, and you can send it back if you don't like it. Hard to go wrong with that.

[richard_oleson]

In terms both of performance per dollar and reliability, a TLR is your best bet: the waist level groundglass lets you take advantage of the larger format and compose with precision that is not possible in a folder with an optical finder. It has no bellows to leak and its mechanical system is much simpler, quieter and generally more reliable than that of a (too expensive anyway) SLR.

 

Having gotten that out of the way, there are a number of good choices below or near $100, including the lower echelon Yashicas (A, D, LM and some others... maybe even an early meterless Yashica Mat). But the all time champion for MF performance on the cheap is the Ciro-Flex. It has a decent lens (though not quite equal to the Yashica Mat) in a body so simple that there is virtually nothing to go wrong. You have a choice of a mediocre Alphax or a good full-range Rapax shutter for about the same price either way, so look for the Rapax. The price? You can probably get a decent Ciro-Flex for $30, and certainly not over $50. By the time you've spent the other $50-70 on film and processing, you'll know whether you like MF enough to invest in something fancier.

[jnovek]

Wow! Thanks for the great response.

 

Re: Moskva V -- in particular, I like that the Moskva V can do 6x9 and 6x6 if you can find one with the adapter. Of course, my experience with folders in vintage shops so far has been that they often have stuck shutters... and even if the shutter fires, it is probably way off at some speed.

 

I wouldn't mind shooting a folder (if I could find a healthy one) or TLR for now because I think that my master plan is to pick up one of the big, versatile press cameras like the Koni-Omega or Mamiya Super 23 with all the trimmings plus CLA to handhold at eye level. I imagine that such a camera, with a few backs, and additional telephoto and wide angle lenses would run $600 to $800 with CLA. I would like a chance to play with the format some before I make that kind of investment.

 

Full disclosure is that I do have one medium format camera -- a Kodak Dualflex IV (With a focusing cell, WOW!) that I purchased for a hefty $1.25 at an estate sale. I've run one roll of trimmed 120 through it, and I must say, it was pretty fun to shoot. Only having 12 exposures to work with really made me think about each shot. Also, there is some appeal to shooting from the navel, simply because it is so different from shooting an SLR or rangefinder.

 

Thanks again for your suggestions, if you have any more thoughts I would be glad to hear them!

 

Jason

[dave_s]

You might be able to find an older Mamiya TLR (C3, C33) with lens in your price range. They're big and heavy, but they have certain advantages.

[rob_sato]

Good. Light. Cheap. (Rearranged intentionally) Okay, let's address all these points, at least to some degree. Medium format gear is getting dumped left and right by wedding/portrait pros in favor of digital. There are tons of stuff out there. Let's take a rough look.

 

Good? All medium format is good compared to 35mm. A Leica or Contax with Zeiss lenses might be the 35mm image maker king supreme to many people. But, a lower priced medium format camera will at least equal and probably beat it. A good big one will beat a good little one every time.

 

Used Leica prices are still nuts even in this digital crazed era. Hasselblad prices also hold their own, especially lenses.

 

 

First let's look at what is not good (in my opinion). Chinese TLRs.(Not Japanese branded but Chinese made....fully Chinese branded and made here) Pearl Rivers, Seagulls, etc. They fall apart. Russian cameras. Yeah, some of it is good, but quality control is so notoriously inconsistent that it really can be playing Russian roulette (Kievs, etc).

However , Lubitel TLRs (166 Series ) though, are incredibly cheap. $20-35 on ebay for one with a 75mm f4.5 len.

 

Zeiss and other foldable rangefinders. Sharp enough, but fragile and expensive to fix.

 

Holgas, Dianas, other "toy " cameras. Unless "artsy" soft focus is what you are intentionally looking for, avoid.

 

Obscure makes like Koni-Omega and unreliable ones like older Bronicas (EC-TL etc).

 

Of course, if you find a full system for screamingly cheap (say under $200)and it all works because you get to test it to your full satisfaction, why not?

 

 

Okay.

Light. Well, you can start off with a rangefinder. Any 645 Fuji rangefinder is light. But they don't have interchangeable lenses. Or backs.

 

Any 645 slr will do. Mamiya, Bronica and Pentax all have reasonably priced system SLRS in 645 on the used market(equal to or cheaper sometimes then Mamiya C Tlrs). They all have a good selection of lenses. The Mamiya 645 has some special lenses (Fast f1.9 and soft focus )while the Bronica has flash sync at all shutter speeds and interchangeable backs for most of its models (with a couple of exceptions). The Mamiya's drawback is that it has a slow flash synch (1/60 second) and most of its backs aren't interchangeable. I believe the Pentax's drawbacks are the same as the Mamiya. A 645 slr makes the lightest medium format system camera because of its somewhat smaller image size. If you are moving up from 35mm , this is a good way to start because it handles in some ways like a 35mm. With 220 film, you can get 30 or 32 shots a roll of film depending on the brand of camera. They are also relatively cheap.

 

 

In the slightly larger 6x6 square format, if you can live with one lens, the Ricoh Diacord TLR is obscure and vastly underrated but a good choice (Ricoh has always been an underrated camera maker in general). They have good normal Riken Tessar type lenses or in some cases triplets. They are somewhat harder to find then the much more famous (and vastly overpriced) Yashicamat 124 series TLR. I would put a 50 year old Ricoh Diacord against a new Chinese Seagull Tlr any day of the week for reliability. They go on the used market for well under $100.

 

For system cameras, it is a tossup between the Mamiyaflex interchangeable lens TLR C series and Bronica SQ series SLRs. The TLR has a somewhat more limited lens selection (especially wide angle) and no interchangeable backs. On the other hand, they are fully mechanical and robust as tanks. They need no battery to operate and are much quieter and allow you to see the expression of the subject WHEN the shutter is being tripped. They are good for low light handholding because their lack of a slr mirror cuts down on image sharpness robbing vibrations from the mirror return slap.

 

They suck for macro and critical closeup work because of their parallax.

 

The Bronicas have a good lens selection and are great for all around work. They have interchangeable backs which allow you to shoot 6x6, 645 and even 35mm images. They do have mirror blackout and high vibrations. They need batteries to operate. Both the Mamiya and Bronica are about roughly even in price on the used market. There are lots of both out there.

 

In general, the normal standard lens (75mm, 80mm ), with an interchangeable lens camera will be cheapest followed by moderate telephotos (135mm, 150mm.) Wide angles can be shockingly expensive.

Condition matters too. Minty gear will cost more then very good or good. Avoid zooms unless you get a bargain. They are useful, but superexpensive and slow.

 

Mamiya RB67s. These are MONSTERS. But they are beautiful, robust monsters. They are all mechanical, something most Bronicas are not. They use a 6x7 image size, bigger then the standard square format or 645. They are also heavy as the blazes. They can be possibly be used 35mm style (with accessory adaptions like rapid focus gear,useful for getting high quality portrait/fashion work done ) , but the smaller, lighter 645s are naturally better suited for that.

 

They literally have one big edge. Their BIG image with NO cropping to get a rectangular image vs 6x6 which is often cropped (thus reducing it to roughly 645 quality).

 

RB67s, normal and medium telephotos (especially the older ones) are plentiful and cheap. If ultimate image quality is what you're going for, it's hard to go wrong with one of these tanks.

 

Light it's not. Cheap and good it is.

 

So. Let's see. Good. Just about any recent undamaged medium format gear is good, especially with proper technique.

 

Good and cheap. The RB67 is good and cheap. But not light.

 

Good, cheap and light. The Ricoh Diacord TLR (Tessar type lens) is a good cheap and light non system camera. The Lubitel might squeak in, because it is SO cheap and light. It weighs much less then the Diacord, but has a slower lens. Much easier to find then the Diacord...but it is a Russian camera with its unreliable/manufacturing defect prone nature...if you can get one for a song ($20 max)and test it then maybe it could be considered Fair, cheap and light. BTW, it only uses 120 film. On the other hand, for not much more then the price of a Holga, you can actually take fairly sharp pictures and not worry about damaging, losing or getting it stolen because it is so common and cheap.

 

The 645 system slrs out there, Pentax, Mamiya and Bronica are also good cameras. The older ones are really priced good. The Pentax is rarer and priced somewhat higher. The Mamiya ia in the middle. The Bronica is the most common and cheapest.

 

The Bronica SQ series of square format is also good if a tad heavier and a bit more expensive then its 645 cousin. The Mamiya C series system TLR is a different animal but in its own unique way, also a good choice.

 

My PERSONAL favorite is the Bronica ETR/ETRS/ETRSi 645 right now. They are somewhat cheaper then the other 645 offerings and have full flash sync and interchangeable backs. They also have at least one mechanical backup speed shutter (1/500 second). And they are somewhat cheaper then the equally excellent Bronica SQ/SQA/SQAi series of 6x6 SLRS.

 

Whatever you choose, you probably can't go wrong as long as it is undamaged and reliable.

 

Good luck and hoped all this medium format rambling helped some.

[rob_sato]

Okay, Jason. For a hundred bucks. Just get the Diacord. lol.

[claude_batmanghelidj]

I would save a little more money and look at around $250. I disagree with Rob Sato about the EC. In my opinion this is a really unique camera. It has 120/220 in one back, which for the life of me, I cannot see why one can not find with other makers, who insist on different backs for 120/220. it has an incredibly sharp Nikon standard 75mm lens. It is very well built, and very reliable.

 

I currently have a Rolleicord (100 bucks off ebay) and a Bronica GS-1 which cost about $240, and is like new. The GS-1 is perfect. It gives you 6x7, 6x6, ttl metering, sharp lenses, flash fill. I will never sell this camera.

 

The Rolleicord, which had bad slow shutter speeds, I was able to loosen up by dropping lighter fluid in the cable release, as well as shutter and aperture adjustment openings. I have done this numerous times, and it appears that it has finally fixed the shutter. Rolleis are the most beautifully crafted of all the MF cameras, but need masses of TLC.

[mike_pallas]

Look for a Yashicamat 124G. I have used one professionally for a few and have the auxillary lenses and filters etc. Great little camera that renders really sharp results. Synchs at all shutter speeds and really gets you thinking about composition. Shooting in the square format gives you the option of square photos or cropping to rectangle. Go for it!

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Zeiss Ercona II has a bitingly sharp Tessar and it is 6x9. Contact the eB*y seller Certo6 as he often has them. They are, however, zone focus.But they work really well at f/11 or f/16 as you get quite a bit DOF.

[doug grosjean]

Lots of good advice above.

 

A second vote for the Ciro-Flex as a cheap and good entry into MF.

 

I don't know how you could beat it for "bang for the buck." I'd say it's 80% the camera that my Rolleicord V is, for about 10-20% of the price.

 

I was loaned a Ciro-Flex TLR, the model with the 1/400 shutter but not theTessar lens, by my g/f. Her (late) father bought it new to document her growing up. Hadn't been touched in probably a couple decades. I put in a roll of film and used it, and everything worked. Bought my own because I didn't want anything to happen to hers, since there was an emotional attachment to it.

 

Used Ciro-Flex cameras for about a year before moving on to a Rolleicord & Rolleiflex, Kodak Medalist, a Zeiss-Ikon folder... But the Ciro-Flex was where I got the basics of MF. I've taken many excellent photos with it. I still use one when the shooting environment is such that I'd be afraid to risk damage to an expensive camera: snow, rain, cold, sand. I'd take a CF on my dirtbike, but not any of my more expensive cameras. One of my Ciro-Flex cameras I had outside in 0F for 20 minutes, and when I brought it back inside it covered itself in condensation. Ack! Dried it off, with no bad effect. Learned that I should have put it in a waterproof bag when coming into a warm building...

 

On top of all that, to some degree you can work on it yourself if you're mechanically inclined. Seems the ones I've gotten used, people have didlled with the taking lens, and bringing the viewing and taking lens into sych brings them up to snuff. The flash socket on the side is about at the nodal point, so it takes good panos (merge with Photoshop later). Putting the camera on its side on a tripod has come in handy a time or two as well.

 

So why buy a more expensive camera? Ease of use, how the controls feel in your hands. The Rolleis feel like a precision micrometer, the Ciro-Flex TLRs are a bit cruder. But they still work just fine.

 

I've seen Ciro-Flex TLRs go for $20-$30 at camera swap meets / flea markets. I've even had a couple people try to give me one.. They were extremely common in post-WW2 United States, I guess.

[doug grosjean]

Ooops... In 6th paragraph above, second sentence, I meant people have diddled with the viewing lens. Not a bad chore to make it right again, and synch it to the taking lens.

[jnovek]

Rob,

 

Are you familiar with the Paradox of Choice? :-)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory#Paradox_of_choice

 

Jason

[jnovek]

Thanks, guys. Now I'm starting to waffle.

 

I might go for the Ciro-Flex with the 83mm Tessar-style lens. It looks like one can be had for the price of two beers and a decent steak!

 

By the look of it, for a bit more ($20 to $30), I can get a Mamiyaflex that takes interchangeable lenses. Is it worth it? It looks like the lenses tend to be quite pricy.

 

I will watch for good Diacords and Yashicamats, too, but they seem to sell for a bit more.

 

I would like to save my money at this point -- if I like the format, $60 not spent on this camera is $60 I can spend on a better one later on.

 

Rob, those Bronicas are strange looking critters. I'm intrigued!

 

Jason

[jnovek]

Question: is there a way to check the condition of the transport on a TLR (presuming that it doesn't use the ruby window) without loading and shooting film? When I ask eBay sellers questions about the cameras, I would like to be able to ask them to check the condition of the transport, but I presume that they won't have any 120 lying around.

 

The other "typical" condition issues -- lens and shutter -- those are reasonably easy to test.

 

Jason