Help with sanctuary lighting during service.

[jennifer_brown4]

Hello! I am need some help trouble shooting.

 

About the church:

Single isle, high stained glass windows on both sides, darker choir loft,

large stained glass window in balcony (oppisite choir loft, this lets in a lot

of light towards the back of the church), red carpet, dark wood, light walls

 

Problem: (practice shots)

 

I went into the balcony to take some test pictures. The choir loft was dark

and the rest was light. The couple was dark. I zoomed in 180mm and it was

almost pitch black. You could barely tell there were people there. I tried

many setting but couldnt get it right.

 

I took another from the choir loft angles at the couple, zoomed out. You

couldnt make out the colors of the windows.

 

I want to place the bride in front of a window for a great shot, but now i;m

afarid it won't work.

 

 

What am I doing wrong? I usually dont have this problem. I'm using an SB-400

and Nikon D80.

 

If someone can help with posting pictures I can do that.

[jennifer_brown4]

I see how to post pictures now. This one is from the balcony, zoomed in. I actually had the flash on...<div></div>

[jennifer_brown4]

Here is another one. This is full zoomed from the balcony.<div></div>

[jennifer_brown4]

This one is from the choir loft. Why can't you see the pretty color in the windows? and how do I light up the couple, without using too much flash?<div></div>

[dilley]

Hi Jennifer,

 

First, I would suggest including smaller images that will show up in your posts and be easier to see on the screen.

 

The main problem is that the lights are not on (most churches keep them off until services). There will be lights that generally light the church better, and also that highlight the alter. Ask the church coordinator about the lighting.

 

As for a window shot, when you place the bride in front of the windows, you will not be trying to light the whole church (I presume) and you should have enough light, you can also use a little fill light to even out the shadows. I can see the windows great (on the left side) with the photos you have posted.

[jennifer_brown4]

Thanks Becca. i have never posted a phot on here before and didnt know they would be that big. To me those photos are just awful!

 

The bride said there might be some lights on near the choir loft, but she is not sure.

 

I was hoping that the windows would stand out more. The colors are so beautiful.

[elnoralouisa]

First, resizing your pictures would be nice :)

Second, a flash isn't going to reach that far. Why are you only on ISO200. You should be at least at 800, maybe 1600 and use some noise software. Also, F5? You need a faster lens, 2.8 at the least or a 1.4 would be REALLY nice.

[dilley]

Jennifer,

 

None of the lights are on right now. You can see the dangling house lights, which will generally provide more light and let you shoot faster. As for the couple, I have never seen a church that did not have alter lighting. When you can shoot faster, you will not blow out the colors of the windows.

 

Also, Debbie is right, you should be shooting at a higher ISO, but that won't solve the relative window to church light problem. Only having the church be lighter will help that (because then you may be able to correctly expose the church and the windows at the same time)

[stephen dohring]

What your doing is not learning how to use your camera. Looking at the data in your image you are set on Program mode - 1/60 at f9 - dark as hell. Your 3.5 kit lens is not really gonna cut it when you have to turn the flash off. Your SB400 is far from a pro flash and does not have the power you need but during the ceremony that has to be off anyway. ISO 1600 on a Nikon! - forget it - 800 should be the limit and you will need noise reduction software with no flash. I want to be helpful but if you don't understand shutter speed and especially what the aperture does to light I have to ask how did you get talked into shooting this wedding?

[stephen dohring]

Ok Ok I am sure you have a good reason to shoot it, I just get mad to see something as important as a wedding not go to a pro or at least an advanced amature.

 

Do this:

 

USE A priority 3.5 at IS 400 and see what shutter speed you get try to stay at 1/40th or higher and use a tripod. Up the ISO to no more than 800 if you have to.

 

Set the metering mode to spot - using matrix like in your test shots you are getting more abient light calculated in the exposure so spot or centerweight on the couple will be better.

[jennifer_brown4]

I undersatnd what everyone is saying. I did change the ISO many times, and each time it wasn't what I wanted. I don't like to go over 800 because of the graniness.

 

 

 

Believe me, i don't want to mess up.

[picturesque]

One big thing you are doing wrong is not understanding what is possible in a photograph re the range of light to dark tones. One normally can't show the colors in a stained glass window lit by bright outside light and detail in the darkest, shadowy part of the church (which is the altar, without the altar lights on) at the same time. That's why there are post processing tricks to overcome this, such as shooting two images, one exposed for the windows and one exposed for the shadows, and combining in Photoshop, to name one.

 

One other thing is relying on Program for your exposures. While it will do OK for many lighting situations, it won't cut it for difficult ones, and this is a difficult one. I'd recommend some research and study about metering and exposure. The camera's meter is basically giving you what it "thinks" is the best setting/exposure value for the range of light and dark present in the scene, but because it is not human, and doesn't know that the altar area is very important to show, it does not tip the exposure toward the shadows, which is what you would do after considering the situation and metering in the right place (even if the altar lights are turned on). Instead, it is biasing the exposure toward the mostly lighted pew area.

 

People will tell you that you need fast lenses and high ISO, and while these help with stopping motion, you CAN get these images with your present lens and a tripod, along with smart shooting at the right moments, such as pauses, since a wedding ceremony doesn't usually involve a lot of fast action. However, you should help yourself by knowing the fastest ISO you can get away with, and that f9 is way too small of an aperture to be using in this situation.

 

When you say you tried different settings, what do you mean? You might have gotten decent exposures if you used the ambient exposure compensation control on the camera, although the normal two stops available may not have been enough--you would have set plus ambient compensation. Also if you used a tripod and set the camera on aperture priority, using your widest available aperture and highest ISO you are comfortable with (noise). However, these steps are band aids only--knowing the whys of what you need to do would be infinitely better.

 

I believe there is a book called "Understanding Exposure" by an author whose last name is Peterson (??). I'd look that up and start studying. Are you shooting this wedding soon?

[susanne_beerli]

Second steve.

 

The camera on auto has chosen some pretty bad parameters for you. and at these distances even the "pro" SB800 flash would be practically useless.

 

I would go turn off the flash, use manual mode, ISO800-1000, exposure as long as needed, aperture wide open, tripod and try a load of test shots to see what you get. Remember if you zoom in, your lens's 3.5 aperture shrinks to a 5.6 (sigh) and you'll need to lengthen your exposure significantly. You will hardly get bright vibrant colors as you would with flash close-up or outdoors - the color spectrum of the available light in the building is just too uneven. experiment with your camera's built-in low-light noise reduction feature.

 

I would not hope for salvation from lights during the ceremony. They might help a bit but they're hardly studio lights :-) - much too dim. And their tungsten yellow will nicely clash with the shady blue light through the windows, but that's another issue...

 

You can use curves in Photoshop to punch up and turn the muddy shots into monochrome to salvage something.

 

What do you think of getting the bride to book an experienced photog to do the tricky (i.e. low light) parts of the wedding with you backing up? Might save you some sleepless nights and your friendship with the bride. :-)

[elnoralouisa]

Ok, since I don't have any dark church weddings planned (therefore, please no--you are doing dark church weddings? comments), can I ask a really stupid question? What on earth is a "ambient exposure compensation control" I have a Pentax K10D. I don't have one do I? Go ahead, tell me it's a Nikon only thing (the D80 is like starring at candy in a candy store window to me--well, no actually, that would be the D200--in other words dream cameras)

 

Debbie

[picturesque]

Debbie--I don't know anything about a Pentax K10D. However, the ambient exposure compensation control feature is not a Nikon only thing. There is such a feature on the Canon Rebel XT (I think), which is the low end model for that line. Basically it is a control that allows you to tell the camera, after it has made it's guess at the right exposure, "OK, now I want you to change your exposure guess so that I see more in the shadows (plus compensation), or more in the bright parts/highlights (minus compensation)." I would think there is a way to do that on your Pentax.

[elnoralouisa]

Oh, ok, the +/-. Yeah, I have that :)

"Ambient Exposure Compensation Control" just made it sound like some magic strange button :) I thought, wow, I don't think I have it.......

----------

book is by Bryan Peterson--"Understanding Exposure"

[picturesque]

OK I just went on dpreview to look at the Pentax specs. It has an exposure compensation feature--+/- 3 stops with 1/2 stop steps, +/- 2 stops with 1/3 stop steps.

 

Another thing (for Jennifer)--just so you know, if you use a flash with Program mode, it will probably automatically set a handholdable shutter speed, such as 1/60th (way to fast for most dark church scenes). The camera does not know that the flash won't be able to reach the intended subjects, so it will merrily set that speed. You should know the limits of your flash as well, before proceeding to shoot many more weddings...

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

Shooting in dark churches takes two things: a good selection of reasonably fast lenses and a tripod. You need the lenses because often your asked to not move around and be a distraction. A tripod will let you take shots that you just can't hand holding.

 

The over view shot was done with a 17-55/2.8 lens at 17mm, 1/3 sec, f4 , ISO 400.<div></div>

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

This close up was shot from the same position (with a small crop) with a 180/2.8 at 1/40 sec, f4, ISO1600.<div></div>

[picturesque]

Jennifer--do you completely understand what everybody is saying? If you don't, ask now. Everyone is trying to help you.

[Jerry_]

You might consider taking a "small" spot meter reading at the floor level, then going to the loft. Set your camera to the spot meter reading (use M manual mode,) and see if you get better exposures. At the wedding, a white dress will make your camera meter think less light is needed, resulting in underexposure for the scene.

 

 

 

 

The D80 has auto bracketing, and you have to read the instruction manual to see how that works.

 

 

 

 

And plan on shooting NEF files at the wedding, so if the lighting is really poor -- you may have a chance to fix the exposure in Photoshop or Nikon Capture NX.