What do you pay your 2nd shooters and their transportation?

[jon_krasner]

Hello,

 

I wanted to know what is the range that people pay their second shooters/assistant? I pay $400 for an

8-10 hour day and slightly more if the travel is more than 45 minutes away. Also, I have been paying all of

their cabs (I'm in NYC) to and from the location which averages $30-$75 per wedding. I charge about

$3,000 a wedding right now, and I don't feel like I can justify this expense. My clients don't pay additional

for this second shooter, although they know that someone else will be there taking pictures with me. Any

opinions about this? I am just feeling frustrated because of all the work I do and it just seems all of my

money is going towards expenses...Thanks in advance!

[jenacolson]

Jon, I think this really depends on your location. We're in Madison, Wisconsin and we pay second shooters $15-20 an hour depending on their experience plus their time for travel at half that rate. This is pretty standard around here...but it's probably different in NYC. It also depends how experienced they are. You might want to ask other photogs in your area what they are paying their second shooters to see if you are on par with them.

[nancy s.]

I used to live just north of NYC and I have been paid $0 to $250 when I was there. I know of someone who did contract shooting and got $250 for all day weddings and he did this as the primary shooter.. and he also got a 1099 in the mail so had to claim the income.

 

In view of today's market with all the people wanting to apprentice and help shoot and to learn, I think you are paying very generously.

 

I believe you could pay a second shooter less if you allowed them to keep their photos and use them to build their own portfolio.. and forget Cab Fare.. Getting to work is your responsibility, not your boss's.

 

That is my opinion. Paying a second shooter $475 means you should be charging about $4,750 for a basic wedding.

[jon_krasner]

I agree, I think they are getting paid too much. I also do let them use the work for their

portfolio. One of my second shooters (who I don't use anymore unless I am in a bind) thought

that $400 was too little and that he has heard photographers paying $500-$800 for their

second shooter. I think I need to start looking for new people to work with!

[fotografz]

I pay my second $500. to $700. depending on how much time we're contract for. If the client

adds an hour, it's an extra $400 income and I split it with the 2nd. So he can make up to

$900. for an 8 hour gig.

 

I do require that he process all his own work, and provide 13X19 contact sheets at his

expense.

 

For the smaller weddings, it's killing my profit margin... and I may end the practice of using a

second in favor of just an assistant. For larger ones, I welcome the help of a second shooter.

[eileen3]

Wow, That sounds a lot! And you pay for their transportation?!?! You do pay generously. Can I

work for you ;-) ? When I assisted it was my responsibility to get to the locations (unless the

pro wanted me to ride with her to the next location). I wish I had a boss that paid for my way

to work. I also didn't get paid but I did get to keep all the images I shot for my portfolio.

 

I have a friend who is a pro and when she started out as an assistant she was getting $150

for the day, in LA. But like Jena said it also depends on experience but $400 is pretty high.

Also out of curiosity, when you look at their shots do you think their worth what your paying

them for? How much of their work do you actually use to present to the b&g?

[annealmasy]

We pay a shooter $1000 for an 8-hour gig; they ride with us. We only contract

professional shooters whose work we are 100% confidant in. Shooting with us is NOT an

on-the-job training opportunity.

 

We do not allow our shooters to utilize their images EXCEPT in a printed portfolio or on

their blog (with a link back to our site). The shooter does not receive ANY profits from the

reprint sales of their images.

 

The client pays for the third-shooter (two of us are included by default); it does not cut

into our profit margin; it is an add-on feature that the client selects to purchase.

[tom_luongo1]

Jon, would you be comfortable without the second shooter? Do the second shooters generate print sales? And though the couples aren't explicitly paying for the second shooter, do they use the second shooter as a factor in the hiring decision?

 

It's difficulty to quantify these factors. But if all your money is going towards expenses, you have to cut the expenses, raise rates, or both.

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

You could certainly pay less and get a good, competent shooter in NYC. If $3,000 is your package price, as opposed to shooting fee, then your second shooter is significant expense. This is coming from someone who lives in NYC and seconds in the NY metro area. I know I get paid less and just send in a DVD of RAW files after doing a quick edit.

[richsimmons]

You don't really say what the responsibility of the second shooter is for you. Everybody is different. Do they also do any post work on the shots they took? How many shots are each of you taking? Taking a train or a cab is no big deal. Having to rent a parking space to take $100 bucks or more for the day, depending on where you are. When I go to the city I have to pay $50+ to park just to see a play for TWO hours.

 

It might be best to list all the things you have to do to accomplish the job, start to finish and then see how much you are really walking away with.

[robbie_caswell]

Only you can decide on the economics... but a second shooter has gear expenses, travel expenses, and pays taxes like the primary.

 

I calculated the true cost of second shooting (pair of 5D bodies and fast primes) then the $100 to $150 I was being paid was barely breaking even, wearing out my cameras.

 

But by the time I bought them I knew I wasn't going to stick around.

 

I think it would benefit you to have a solid, well paid second shooter than rotate a new shooter every year, watch them improve, start to feel a bit cheated, and strike out on their own.

[joel_stowe]

When I moved back to Phoenix, AZ. I asked a couple of Studio's if they needed any help. Some told me they would call me back when business picked up. They were going to pay me $150-$200 to shoot the wedding, not be the assistant. I would then get a percentage of the reprint order. Most of the packages ran $1000 to $3000.

[saul_gan]

I'd be glad to come up to NY & work for you!

[jaimie blue]

$400 is great, you should have some loyal and dedicated second shooters, maybe you can delegate more of the work load or whatever it is that you feel you are doing all of, to them.

[jon_krasner]

Thanks for everyone's very helpful responses. I think it is time for me to find new

assistants/second shooters. I don't require the second shooter to edit or process the work.

They show up and shoot. They don't help me with any of the post-production or

preparation for the shoots. That being said, both people I have used for the past year and

a half are very good photographers and are capable of being a primary shooter. I just can't

afford it anymore. They shoot too much (about 1,000 images a wedding) which I edit down

to 150-200. A lot of the shots are redudant to what I have. The only time I really need

them is when the groom is getting ready and during the reception. The mistake I made is

that I started having a second shooter without raising my rates. What does everyone else

do? Charge extra for a second or include it with the package? I feel like a lot of my clients

expect a second shooter, but maybe it doesn't have to be someone so experienced?

[captjack]

Jon - I'm in Houston- shooting weddings for over 30yrs - For many years I taught/sponsored the photographer kids on yearbook and the school paper at my old high school. Every year I would get two or three that were serious and quickly developed into good shooters. These are the ones I "hired" to be my assistants. I traditionally pay them $100 for the wedding. But their only responsibility is to shoot candids and table shots at the reception - and anything interesting that their eye might pick up. I did this for over 10 years and 4 of my serious students went on to get their degrees in photography and have become pro shooters.

 

The other thing you can do is check the "Assistants" list on the NYC local chapter of PPA- in Houston it's the Houston Guild. We maintain a list of assistants and so does our local chapter of ASMP. But these will be professional assistants and will be considering this at least a part-time job and looking to make at least $250 for the shoot.

[William Michael]

Mr Krasner:

 

I am not expert in business in the precinct of NYC.

 

I regard the second photographer (`second shooter` is a term we do not use) as a second professional photographer who will work under very limited direction, but within a brief, usually given before the event. He will capture images equivalent to the studio standard with 90% success. Her conduct, demeanour, presentation will reflect the studio`s image, and he will understand the business of photography and her primary focus would be to capture, excellent, saleable images, separate to those of the Primary Photographer.

 

I regard an Assistant, or Photographer`s Assistant as one who primarily assist the photographer and on occasions will be required to capture images under close direction.

 

I think defining what who you are employing is very important important.

 

Reading through YOUR two statements only, I comment purely on the business model outlined in them, and it seems to me;

 

1. For a $3,000 product (assume total cost) why do you need a second professional photographer who mimics you and has a culling rate of 85%?

 

This seems to be a cushy job where the person romps up gets 1/6th of the total haul, copies you for most of it, seemingly has little responsibility, nor can they be let loose to derive any original material (a key ingredient to increasing sales).

 

In a nutshell, this formula has the potential to send the business south.

 

2. If you do employ a second professional, then translated US$400 to AUS$ seems a quite low for what my ex studio would pay a professional for eight hours: but then again with an 85% cull rate, they would not be paid at all.

 

3. RE: `I feel like a lot of my clients expect a second shooter, but maybe it doesn't have to be someone so experienced?`

 

I would not take into any account what you `feel the clients expect` in regards to the people present at the event.

 

I would however consider restructuring the offer of your products, to allow the customer to decide what they might like to purchase, and perhaps that might mean giving them a choice.

 

4. RE: `but maybe it doesn't have to be someone so experienced?`

 

I would NEVER let an inexperienced person behind a camera to take even one frame on which my studio`s name would appear: to do so would be potential business suicide IMO.

 

Mixed metaphor time:

 

Employing someone responsible to capture images at a one off event where your business is on the line; is IMO, the Deer Hunter philosophy of `one shot` marrying the `Peanuts and Monkeys` metaphor.

 

You do not get a second turn at the batting plate. (just to throw in one more).

 

WW

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

The majority of my shooting is is for a photographer that has two of us as associates/second shooters. He almost always uses one of us when he is shooting and when the job is booked with the associates both of us work together. The cost of the second shooter is built into his price. You either need to build of the second shooter into the price or charge extra for the second shooter.

 

Some primary shooters don't depend on their seconds to get very many shots. I think that they key to making effective use of a second is to think about what you want them to get and work out a plan with them. You want them to shoot things that you either aren't or can't. For the ceremony the primary works up close at the front and I'll work the back using long and wide lenses. I may also take some shots of the guests. I keep an eye on the primary in case he runs into a problem, but mostly I'm getting a different look. Same sort of thing at the reception. He shoots the person giving a toast and I shoot reaction shots of the B&G or other guests. We rarely shoot the same thing.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that I'm not trying to shoot for my portfolio. I have a full time day job and I'm not interested in starting my own photography business; it's the same for his other associate. Unless I'm shooting a gig for him, I don't care if I get coverage of the entire event. If you use photographers who are trying to get started in the business they have a different agenda. There are a lot of people out there just scrambling to get enough decent shots to put together a web site and hang their shingle.

 

The issue of seconds and assistants wanting to be able to use their shots for self promotion encourages the primary to restrict access to work done by the seconds. This gives the primary lots more editing work. Since the photographers I shoot for know I don't work in the retail market they are just as happy to let me do the first cut edit of what I shoot. I usually edit down to around 400 shots. They are all useable shots and there aren't 10 almost identical shots of the same thing. Even at that, I don't think that more than a 1/3 get into the proofs.

[William Michael]

>>> If you use photographers who are trying to get started in the business they have a different agenda. <<<

 

A key defining sentence, IMO

 

WW